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C Mikhail Grigorenko - Quebec Remparts, QMJHL (2012 draft) III

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11-25-2012, 02:37 AM
  #526
nexttothemoon
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Yakupov, Grigorenko and Galchenyuk were the clear 1-2-3 picks for me at the draft. Nothings changed for me since then either.

It's easy to say the scouts are pros and get paid to do what they do so they should be better assessors of talent than schmuks like me and others on the boards here... but the pro scouts are human as well and subject to groupthink and errors of judgement like anyone else.

Only time will tell of course how all the draft picks turn out at the NHL level... but as an Oiler fan I'm certainly happy they chose Yak and personally my 2nd choice would have been Grigorenko (even though the Oilers would very likely have chosen Murray if they had the #2 pick.

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11-25-2012, 09:05 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Kishire View Post
He's not a Burke type player.

I'm very excited for his potential. Luke Adam played like an all star between Vanek and Pommer, if Grigs gets the same opportunity and develops some chemistry with them. Him dishing those passes to Vanek could be a good combination.
Hell, the way he's scoring in the Q might mean Vanek will be dishing to him. TV's been as much of a playmaker as a goalscorer the past two seasons.

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11-25-2012, 09:26 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Yakupov, Grigorenko and Galchenyuk were the clear 1-2-3 picks for me at the draft. Nothings changed for me since then either.

It's easy to say the scouts are pros and get paid to do what they do so they should be better assessors of talent than schmuks like me and others on the boards here... but the pro scouts are human as well and subject to groupthink and errors of judgement like anyone else.

Only time will tell of course how all the draft picks turn out at the NHL level... but as an Oiler fan I'm certainly happy they chose Yak and personally my 2nd choice would have been Grigorenko (even though the Oilers would very likely have chosen Murray if they had the #2 pick.
I would take any number of dmen out of the WHL before I would take Grigorenko. Murray, Reinhart, Rielly and Dumba. Grigorenko is lighting it up, but he is on a stacked team and he is playing some fugly bad teams in the Q.

Once he gets into the NHL all that changes and he WILL be getting bodied, rubbed out, and hit by much bigger, stronger, faster players than he is facing right now. There is a chance he wilts under that type of adversity.

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11-25-2012, 09:42 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I would take any number of dmen out of the WHL before I would take Grigorenko. Murray, Reinhart, Rielly and Dumba. Grigorenko is lighting it up, but he is on a stacked team and he is playing some fugly bad teams in the Q.

Once he gets into the NHL all that changes and he WILL be getting bodied, rubbed out, and hit by much bigger, stronger, faster players than he is facing right now. There is a chance he wilts under that type of adversity.
He's 6'3'' 205 lbs. He will be just fine.

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11-25-2012, 09:47 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I would take any number of dmen out of the WHL before I would take Grigorenko. Murray, Reinhart, Rielly and Dumba. Grigorenko is lighting it up, but he is on a stacked team and he is playing some fugly bad teams in the Q.

Once he gets into the NHL all that changes and he WILL be getting bodied, rubbed out, and hit by much bigger, stronger, faster players than he is facing right now. There is a chance he wilts under that type of adversity.

'Playing in the Q' is the worst argument ever. As if it was supposed to change something in his potential. Grigorenko is on a pace to make more points than Giroux and Couturier ever had in a season and they both played on good teams in the Q. It's not like they didn't turn out well because they played in the league.

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11-25-2012, 09:49 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Yakupov, Grigorenko and Galchenyuk were the clear 1-2-3 picks for me at the draft. Nothings changed for me since then either.

It's easy to say the scouts are pros and get paid to do what they do so they should be better assessors of talent than schmuks like me and others on the boards here... but the pro scouts are human as well and subject to groupthink and errors of judgement like anyone else.

Only time will tell of course how all the draft picks turn out at the NHL level... but as an Oiler fan I'm certainly happy they chose Yak and personally my 2nd choice would have been Grigorenko (even though the Oilers would very likely have chosen Murray if they had the #2 pick.
Scouts don't only get to watch players more than we do, they get to spend time with them and evaluate their character. You can have all the skill in the world and fail to make an impact at the NHL level because of that important trait. Character can be the biggest thing for scouts of all sports and with reason. We can pull up countless examples of athletes who did amazing in junior levels but couldn't adapt or wouldn't work hard enough to make it at the pro level. Clearly a number of scouts felt that way about Grigorenko. No one would argue that he was a top 3 talent, so obviously something else dissuaded them from picking him, it wasn't a simple "mistake" as you make it out to be.

Time will tell if they were right though.

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11-25-2012, 09:50 AM
  #532
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He's 6'3'' 205 lbs. He will be just fine.
Im aware of his size. He is not a physical player. The best way to neutralize a non-physical finesse player is to rough them up, hit them as hard and as often as you can. He will get the "treatment". Maybe he fights through it and becomes a star in the nhl?

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11-25-2012, 09:53 AM
  #533
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'Playing in the Q' is the worst argument ever. As if it was supposed to change something in his potential. Grigorenko is on a pace to make more points than Giroux and Couturier ever had in a season and they both played on good teams in the Q. It's not like they didn't turn out well because they played in the league.
I can cherry pick some bust examples if you like. I dont see how that would prove anything one way or the other. The Q is the most unbalanced of the three chl leagues atm. Im not saying that Grigorenko isnt talented, but I also wouldnt be filling my pants over his stats.

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11-25-2012, 09:57 AM
  #534
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I can cherry pick some bust examples if you like. I dont see how that would prove anything one way or the other. The Q is the most unbalanced of the three chl leagues atm. Im not saying that Grigorenko isnt talented, but I also wouldnt be filling my pants over his stats.
Maybe you should just watch some games, and then comment?

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11-25-2012, 10:00 AM
  #535
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I think we should wait and see what he does in the WJC. He's in a very good team against inferior teams most of the time. I think we see our prospect tearing it up in the minors and get waaayyy too excited. (same thing with Galchenyuk) Right now, beside Yakupov who is doing very well in the KHL against NHL caliber opposition. we should keep a level head.

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11-25-2012, 10:00 AM
  #536
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Weren't the Remparts afraid they'd lose Grigs if there were an NHL season this year? If that is true, them I think that speaks to where he is as a player.

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11-25-2012, 10:03 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Scouts don't only get to watch players more than we do, they get to spend time with them and evaluate their character. You can have all the skill in the world and fail to make an impact at the NHL level because of that important trait. Character can be the biggest thing for scouts of all sports and with reason. We can pull up countless examples of athletes who did amazing in junior levels but couldn't adapt or wouldn't work hard enough to make it at the pro level. Clearly a number of scouts felt that way about Grigorenko. No one would argue that he was a top 3 talent, so obviously something else dissuaded them from picking him, it wasn't a simple "mistake" as you make it out to be.

Time will tell if they were right though.
The Sabres draft record would indicate their scouts are better than most teams at evaluating players, and I know for sure that they did their due diligence on Grigs. Time will tell is right, but I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of the reasons Grigorenko fell are pretty superficial.

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11-25-2012, 10:07 AM
  #538
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Weren't the Remparts afraid they'd lose Grigs if there were an NHL season this year? If that is true, them I think that speaks to where he is as a player.
Exactly. He's on a good team because he's on the team. Without him, they would be average or less.

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11-25-2012, 10:08 AM
  #539
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The Sabres draft record would indicate their scouts are better than most teams at evaluating players, and I know for sure that they did their due diligence on Grigs. Time will tell is right, but I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of the reasons Grigorenko fell are pretty superficial.
I do think scouts were over-judgmental on his late season and playoffs last year. Especially when we learned he had mono, If they're thinking in such a volatile way, maybe some of them might not be in the right job?

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11-25-2012, 10:13 AM
  #540
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I do think scouts were over-judgmental on his late season and playoffs last year. Especially when we learned he had mono, If they're thinking in such a volatile way, maybe some of them might not be in the right job?
not just that but there were all those bizarre rumours about his age.

i'm really excited to see him in the nhl.

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11-25-2012, 10:18 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I would take any number of dmen out of the WHL before I would take Grigorenko. Murray, Reinhart, Rielly and Dumba. Grigorenko is lighting it up, but he is on a stacked team and he is playing some fugly bad teams in the Q.

Once he gets into the NHL all that changes and he WILL be getting bodied, rubbed out, and hit by much bigger, stronger, faster players than he is facing right now. There is a chance he wilts under that type of adversity.
Get over it. We're in 2012 and still you believe in the argument that QMJHL is still the weakest league of the 3 CHL leagues. I will remind you that the 2 last teams to win the Mastercard Memorial Cup were respectively Saint John Sea Dogs and the Shawinigan Cataractes. Secondly, we can see that you don't know much about the Q and Grigorenko do you? Grigo is not on a stacked team, he is their main catalyst and most reliable player on the ice. Erne, Sorensen, Duclair do not bring the same impact as Grigorenko..your argument is irrelevant. As I recall, MacKinnon and Drouin are on a stacked team too..and how about Huberdeau? He didn't go 3rd overall because he was on one of the most dominant junior team ever? No, because he was contributing to that team being the one of the strongest junior team ever. Simply, put aside the league difference argument, it's getting lame.

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11-25-2012, 11:14 AM
  #542
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Get over it. We're in 2012 and still you believe in the argument that QMJHL is still the weakest league of the 3 CHL leagues. I will remind you that the 2 last teams to win the Mastercard Memorial Cup were respectively Saint John Sea Dogs and the Shawinigan Cataractes. Secondly, we can see that you don't know much about the Q and Grigorenko do you? Grigo is not on a stacked team, he is their main catalyst and most reliable player on the ice. Erne, Sorensen, Duclair do not bring the same impact as Grigorenko..your argument is irrelevant. As I recall, MacKinnon and Drouin are on a stacked team too..and how about Huberdeau? He didn't go 3rd overall because he was on one of the most dominant junior team ever? No, because he was contributing to that team being the one of the strongest junior team ever. Simply, put aside the league difference argument, it's getting lame.

There are two teams in the Q with a goal diff of negative 60 and one with a goal diff of -50.

There are zero teams in the WHL with a goal diff of -40.

There is one team in the OHL with a goal diff equal to or worse than -40.

There is one team in the WHL with a goal diff of +50 or greater.

There is one team in the OHL with a goal diff of +40.

There are two teams in the Q with a goal diff of +50 or greater. There is one team with a goal diff of +40 or greater.

The Q definitely has a higher and more frequent disparity among teams good vs bad, than the other two leagues.

That cannot be disputed. Grigorenko plays on one of the top three Q teams. This also cannot be disputed. So save the "go watch some games" or "you obviously dont watch the games" nonsense.

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11-25-2012, 11:23 AM
  #543
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I agree that the qmjhl is the third or second league in the CHL. That does not negate Grigorenko's talent, as it did not negate Lemieux, Crosby, Giroux, Makinnon, Drouin and I could go on...

Talent is talent no matter what league. If you ignore the talent with the back of your hand because he's in not in a certain league, you're like a one eyed man.

You lose depth perception.

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11-25-2012, 11:24 AM
  #544
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
There are two teams in the Q with a goal diff of negative 60 and one with a goal diff of -50.

There are zero teams in the WHL with a goal diff of -40.

There is one team in the OHL with a goal diff equal to or worse than -40.

There is one team in the WHL with a goal diff of +50 or greater.

There is one team in the OHL with a goal diff of +40.

There are two teams in the Q with a goal diff of +50 or greater. There is one team with a goal diff of +40 or greater.

The Q definitely has a higher and more frequent disparity among teams good vs bad, than the other two leagues.

That cannot be disputed. Grigorenko plays on one of the top three Q teams. This also cannot be disputed. So save the "go watch some games" or "you obviously dont watch the games" nonsense.
I dont get how you can bash Grigorenko without watching him, and argue with all the people who do watch him very frequently, yet when anyone calls Curtis Lazar's stats into question you go off about how that person clearly doesnt watch him and therefore they can't judge him.

Talk about a double standard

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11-25-2012, 11:31 AM
  #545
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
There are two teams in the Q with a goal diff of negative 60 and one with a goal diff of -50.

There are zero teams in the WHL with a goal diff of -40.

There is one team in the OHL with a goal diff equal to or worse than -40.

There is one team in the WHL with a goal diff of +50 or greater.

There is one team in the OHL with a goal diff of +40.

There are two teams in the Q with a goal diff of +50 or greater. There is one team with a goal diff of +40 or greater.

The Q definitely has a higher and more frequent disparity among teams good vs bad, than the other two leagues.

That cannot be disputed. Grigorenko plays on one of the top three Q teams. This also cannot be disputed. So save the "go watch some games" or "you obviously dont watch the games" nonsense.
To be fair there's an expansion team in the Q.

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11-25-2012, 11:34 AM
  #546
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
There are two teams in the Q with a goal diff of negative 60 and one with a goal diff of -50.

There are zero teams in the WHL with a goal diff of -40.

There is one team in the OHL with a goal diff equal to or worse than -40.

There is one team in the WHL with a goal diff of +50 or greater.

There is one team in the OHL with a goal diff of +40.

There are two teams in the Q with a goal diff of +50 or greater. There is one team with a goal diff of +40 or greater.

The Q definitely has a higher and more frequent disparity among teams good vs bad, than the other two leagues.

That cannot be disputed. Grigorenko plays on one of the top three Q teams. This also cannot be disputed. So save the "go watch some games" or "you obviously dont watch the games" nonsense.
It cannot be disputed unless you go as far back as ... last year, when both the WHL and the OHL had more teams with a goal diff of + or - 90 than the Q.

But this year, sure. There's an unusual concentration of offensive talent on two teams, plus the addition of an expansion team, which tends to raise the number of blowouts. With that said, it's not big enough to skew Grigs' numbers up significantly.

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11-25-2012, 11:37 AM
  #547
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I dont get how you can bash Grigorenko without watching him, and argue with all the people who do watch him very frequently, yet when anyone calls Curtis Lazar's stats into question you go off about how that person clearly doesnt watch him and therefore they can't judge him.

Talk about a double standard
He's just liquored up Lahey, the Sabres know what they have in Grigs and thats what matters. We're going to be laughing all the way to a cup in a couple years.

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11-25-2012, 11:42 AM
  #548
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Funny fact: There is only one game where he didn't score a point... against the 18th place team Shawinigan!

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11-25-2012, 12:03 PM
  #549
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I dont get how you can bash Grigorenko without watching him, and argue with all the people who do watch him very frequently, yet when anyone calls Curtis Lazar's stats into question you go off about how that person clearly doesnt watch him and therefore they can't judge him.

Talk about a double standard
Who is bashing Grigorenko? Certainly not me. All Im saying is he is playing on a stacked team and there is more of a disparity between good and bad teams in the Q than there is in the other chl leagues. Maybe people should take that into account before they plan on him being a 100pt guy in the NHL?

As far as Grigorenko vs Lazar and judging from stats, Lazar does a lot away from the puck and in all aspects of the game. He is a two way player who is strong on the puck, in puck battles and plays a strong physical game. Can you say that about Grigorenko with a straight face? Ive seen Grigorenko play quite a bit, not live mind you, but enough to get a pretty good idea of what his general skill set is and his intangibles or lack thereof.

Feel free to dispute any of this if you like, but the fact you and others are trying to make it personal tells me you cant really argue with the content/facts.

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11-25-2012, 12:11 PM
  #550
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Funny fact: There is only one game where he didn't score a point... against the 18th place team Shawinigan!
Funny Fact: The above statement is incorrect.

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