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Old
08-29-2012, 10:06 AM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Again, nobody knows that to be the case. It's just an assumption.
Plus, even if they help, who knows if it would help to the point that the Sabres would be OK given their current state.

If they don't help enough, Leino might be a veteran leader in Rochester.....

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08-29-2012, 10:13 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Again, nobody knows that to be the case. It's just an assumption.
Im playing along that there will be no help, what would be the penalties? Im pretty positive there will be help or a luxury tax.

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08-29-2012, 10:13 AM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
People keep making thus assumption that the league would allow some kind of amnesty. Nothing that has come out, from either side, has really mentioned this. It's folly to just assume that it's going to be there. The PA would have to agree to allow contracts to just be terminated, and they'll never do that. The last big chip the players have left is guaranteed contracts. They won't give that up.
There will have to be some mechanism in place to help teams get cap compliant with the possible upper limit being discussed.


No idea why your talking about giving up guaranteed contracts. The last amnesty was letting buyouts occur that didn't count against the cap.

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08-29-2012, 10:21 AM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Again, nobody knows that to be the case. It's just an assumption.
There is speculation that the NHL is willing to at least consider the idea of transitioning contracts, whatever that may mean, to help teams over the cap.

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08-29-2012, 10:22 AM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
There will have to be some mechanism in place to help teams get cap compliant with the possible upper limit being discussed.


No idea why your talking about giving up guaranteed contracts. The last amnesty was letting buyouts occur that didn't count against the cap.
I've seen that idea floated around a lot, that's why I mentioned it.

I agree that a no-cap hit buyout window would probably be the end result, but I haven't seen word one about that in anything that has come out, so it's tough to say that's what they'll do. The PA would probably have to agree to that as well, although I can't imagine why they would object.

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08-29-2012, 10:28 AM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I've seen that idea floated around a lot, that's why I mentioned it.

I agree that a no-cap hit buyout window would probably be the end result, but I haven't seen word one about that in anything that has come out, so it's tough to say that's what they'll do. The PA would probably have to agree to that as well, although I can't imagine why they would object.
Some people question TFP's reliability, but I've been following the guy for two years and he's been reliable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Pagnotta @TheFourthPeriod
According to a very well placed NHL source, the NHL is willing to discuss transitioning contracts over to accommodate the cap & help teams

This particular item has not yet been addressed/discussed between the NHL and the NHLPA, though could come up in talks today, I'm told.

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08-29-2012, 10:31 AM
  #282
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Oh, I don't think for one second that they won't have something in place. I guess my larger point is that it's not a good idea to assume what they might do and how the Sabres could work with it.

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08-29-2012, 10:35 AM
  #283
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And from a little more reliable source:
http://kuklaskorner.com/hockey/comme...-it-meaningful

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Malik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Dreger
The league's proposal did not include an across-the-board reduction (or "rollback") to existing contract values. Necessary adjustments would be financed entirely from a combination of modified contracting practices, increases in league-wide revenue and from the players' Escrow contributions.
In plain English, there isn't a rollback per se, but there's a rollback via escrow, and there's a rollback via reducing the cap without a rollback--which may or may not mean that there would be another round of buyouts, yielding a de-facto "dispersal draft," just like last time around.
It's not "safe to assume" anything, but based on the last lockout, the idea of a buyout period seems more likely than anything else.

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08-29-2012, 10:37 AM
  #284
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I read that escrow argument yesterday. I'd be shocked if the players went for anything that increased their escrow payments. They're very unhappy with the system as it is now.

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08-29-2012, 10:39 AM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I read that escrow argument yesterday. I'd be shocked if the players went for anything that increased their escrow payments. They're very unhappy with the system as it is now.
Yep, I don't see them being ok with that either.

But buyouts allow the teams to get under the cap and the players to potentially still earn big money.

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08-29-2012, 10:42 AM
  #286
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...0452--nhl.html

Quote:
From Kevin Allen of USA Today:

The NHL is not asking for any rollback in current contracts, suggesting that the adjustment could be made through changes in contracting practices, increases in league-wide revenue and contributions to player escrow.

Players, as a rule, dislike the NHL's current escrow practice. They have a percentage of money taken out of their paychecks to ensure that players as a group receive no more than their collectively bargained share of revenue.

And Darren Dreger of TSN:

The league's proposal did not include an across-the-board reduction (or "rollback") to existing contract values. Necessary adjustments would be financed entirely from a combination of modified contracting practices, increases in league-wide revenue and from the players' Escrow contributions.

Here's Steve House from Mile High Hockey on escrow:

The problem here is that adding more to escrow is, in terms of real dollars, not different from a salary rollback. Keeping with the "tax return" theme, if suddenly you were having more of your check withheld every pay period, and your refund either stayed the same or decreased come tax time, how would that be different from just starting at a lower salary with the percentage being withheld staying the same?

The players hate escrow like Mike hates sauceless sandwiches, and that's why this proposal isn't going to get it done. Over time, in theory, player signing practice would shift to meet the economics, but for the main duration of this deal, the players are gonna lose a significant chunk to escrow and never see it again.
This is going to get interesting....

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08-29-2012, 10:44 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
Yep, I don't see them being ok with that either.

But buyouts allow the teams to get under the cap and the players to potentially still earn big money.
Yep, makes the most sense.

Frankly, if I'm a player in my late 20s on a large/long term deal, I'll happy take a buyout.

2/3rds of my current contract value over twice the team, AND I get to go sign somewhere else for more money? It's like free cash!

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08-29-2012, 11:01 AM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Yep, makes the most sense.

Frankly, if I'm a player in my late 20s on a large/long term deal, I'll happy take a buyout.

2/3rds of my current contract value over twice the team, AND I get to go sign somewhere else for more money? It's like free cash!
Then the next question is if the cap is $56M, who would the Sabres buy out?

http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=8

Vanek ($7.1M)
Miller ($6.25M)
Myers ($5.5M)
Pominville ($5.3M)
Leino ($4.5M)
Regehr ($4.02M)
Stafford ($4.0M)
Ehrhoff ($4.0M)
Leopold ($3.0M)
Ott ($2.95M)

Those are the top 10 cap hits on the books today and the Sabres would need to cut roughly $4M just to get down to $56M [assuming Pardy & Brennan are off the NHL roster] before re-signing Ennis and the potential signing of Doan.

Even with buyouts, things are going to get sticky.

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08-29-2012, 04:44 PM
  #289
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http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...osal-tomorrow/

Quote:
Fehr also say says the players’ union wants a shorter agreement, the NHL’s latest offer is for a six years. Their first proposal was for just five years. Meanwhile, Fehr hopes to have a counter-proposal for the owners by tomorrow but they need to go over the financials for more of the teams first. They hope to have something to bounce back at the owners by the latest on Friday.
This seems like a lot more back and forth than the last time around....

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08-30-2012, 08:57 AM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Then the next question is if the cap is $56M, who would the Sabres buy out?

http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=8

Vanek ($7.1M)
Miller ($6.25M)
Myers ($5.5M)
Pominville ($5.3M)
Leino ($4.5M)
Regehr ($4.02M)
Stafford ($4.0M)
Ehrhoff ($4.0M)
Leopold ($3.0M)
Ott ($2.95M)

Those are the top 10 cap hits on the books today and the Sabres would need to cut roughly $4M just to get down to $56M [assuming Pardy & Brennan are off the NHL roster] before re-signing Ennis and the potential signing of Doan.

Even with buyouts, things are going to get sticky.
If the CBA goes that route, it will be curious as to whether there will be limits on the number of contracts or total dollar amount which could be bought out. PA won't give teams an option to have a full mulligan redo of the roster. Could get complex, but maybe link the # of buyouts or total $ buyout amount to the # of SPCs already in force?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...osal-tomorrow/

This seems like a lot more back and forth than the last time around....
This is good news for fans.

===============
Unrelated, but I'd be ok with a shorter season, too, both in terms of # of games and calendar duration it's spread over. But doubt we'll ever see that.

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08-30-2012, 09:42 AM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Then the next question is if the cap is $56M, who would the Sabres buy out?

http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=8

Vanek ($7.1M)
Miller ($6.25M)
Myers ($5.5M)
Pominville ($5.3M)
Leino ($4.5M)
Regehr ($4.02M)
Stafford ($4.0M)
Ehrhoff ($4.0M)
Leopold ($3.0M)
Ott ($2.95M)

Those are the top 10 cap hits on the books today and the Sabres would need to cut roughly $4M just to get down to $56M [assuming Pardy & Brennan are off the NHL roster] before re-signing Ennis and the potential signing of Doan.

Even with buyouts, things are going to get sticky.
Leopold is the obvious choice here. Pardy is also an obvious move.

If they get a get out of jail card free with Leino they may just take it. It really depends on HOW the buyouts are setup and if there is any cap penalty.

My guess is the cap won't come down quite that low. Probably down to 63-64 ish with an amnesty buyout period

How i'd like to see buyouts happen: for any player signed, you can buyout for the full value of the contract...LESS the amount IF they sign elsewhere.

So let's say we buyout Leino and he signs somewhere else for 3 years, 7.5 million total.

We owe him 13.5 million (21 million total left on his contract minus the 7.5 he just got from another team)

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08-30-2012, 09:47 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by GirgsAndGrigs View Post
Leopold is the obvious choice here. Pardy is also an obvious move.

If they get a get out of jail card free with Leino they may just take it. It really depends on HOW the buyouts are setup and if there is any cap penalty.

My guess is the cap won't come down quite that low. Probably down to 63-64 ish with an amnesty buyout period

How i'd like to see buyouts happen: for any player signed, you can buyout for the full value of the contract...LESS the amount IF they sign elsewhere.

So let's say we buyout Leino and he signs somewhere else for 3 years, 7.5 million total.

We owe him 13.5 million (21 million total left on his contract minus the 7.5 he just got from another team)
Picking nits: Leino has already collected $10m from the Sabres. He earned $6m in Year 1, and collected his $4m signing bonus for Year 2 on July 1, 2012.

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08-30-2012, 09:53 AM
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Then the next question is if the cap is $56M, who would the Sabres buy out?

http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=8

Vanek ($7.1M)
Miller ($6.25M)
Myers ($5.5M)
Pominville ($5.3M)
Leino ($4.5M)
Regehr ($4.02M)
Stafford ($4.0M)
Ehrhoff ($4.0M)
Leopold ($3.0M)
Ott ($2.95M)

Those are the top 10 cap hits on the books today and the Sabres would need to cut roughly $4M just to get down to $56M [assuming Pardy & Brennan are off the NHL roster] before re-signing Ennis and the potential signing of Doan.

Even with buyouts, things are going to get sticky.
Where are you getting the $56m number from? Per the NHL's most recent offer, the cap would be $58m in Year 1, and would be rising thereafter. I can't imagine the league would engage in regressive bargaining and attempt to push it down to $56m after it just offered a $58m cap in the first year of a new CBA.

Moreover, that's just their offer now, with a good chunk of bargaining still remaining. All along I've anticipated a 2012-13 cap to be around $61m-$63m (on an 82-game scale). Assuming Buffalo's cap number is around $64.5m, give or take, once they sign Ennis, the most obvious fix is to lop off Pardy's $2m cap hit. If further reductions are needed, I'd imagine they'll either look to move Leopold for a pick, or, more likely, demote to Rochester someone like McCormick.

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08-30-2012, 10:52 AM
  #294
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I don't know if this has been discussed, but I wonder if the league has considered giving teams the opportunity to restructure contracts like they are able to do in the NFL. That might help to alleviate issues with the cap going down, without players getting bought out, and also allows for them to keep their players while cutting down the financial burden on the team. Like what the bills did with both Terrance McGee and Tavaras Jackson this offseason.

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08-30-2012, 11:28 AM
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
The lowered cap would be great because IMO they would have to allow teams to eliminate 1 or 2 contracts, which means if you bought a Leino jersey it was a bad investment.

Sabres are in pretty good shape with the new $58 million cap. Get rid of Leino's contract and stash Pardy in Rochester. We are at $55 million. Ennis get $2.5 million. Lets play hockey.
What if the new CBA counts contracts at face value? Buffalo is at $72.7M in actual salary with $70.2M in a cap salary. That's before signing Ennis. If the cap is at $58M, Regier's got some serious decisions to make. Even if it's up at where Zip is predicting ($61-$63M), that's still not easy.

I don't think that's going to happen entirely. I do think the new CBA takes away frontloaded contracts the way Buffalo has done them in the past, but there will have to be some mechanism to keep teams like Buffalo and Minnesota from getting torn apart.

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08-30-2012, 12:17 PM
  #296
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If that happens, we're boned, and the league can go **** itself.

I expect existing deals to be grandfathered in, however...

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08-30-2012, 02:43 PM
  #297
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I agree that grandfathering would be a good way to go. This CBA is difficult to figure out because we do not know the totality of what is expenses and what is revenue..The NHLPA wants the richer teams or richer owners to in effect maintain the jobs of scores of their members by picking up the tab for them. The guys who spent a lot of $ buying their teams, rinks, farm teams etc., or who subsidize their teams losses, feel that maybe the NHLPA should kick in more to save the jobs of their members in those areas at risk. The Rangers, Flyers, Leafs would pay more for their own players but do not want to subsidize Florida, Columbus etc...

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08-30-2012, 03:26 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
If that happens, we're boned, and the league can go **** itself.

I expect existing deals to be grandfathered in, however...
I agree. I can't see the league hammering down on teams that bad. I would like to see a system designed to help teams avoid dismantling in year one of the CBA. Maybe a one-time cap buyout for use on one player (the whole cut a guy without his number affecting the cap) plus a luxury tax for teams in 2012-2013 that can't get under the cap.

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08-30-2012, 04:14 PM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
What if the new CBA counts contracts at face value? Buffalo is at $72.7M in actual salary with $70.2M in a cap salary. That's before signing Ennis. If the cap is at $58M, Regier's got some serious decisions to make. Even if it's up at where Zip is predicting ($61-$63M), that's still not easy.

I don't think that's going to happen entirely. I do think the new CBA takes away frontloaded contracts the way Buffalo has done them in the past, but there will have to be some mechanism to keep teams like Buffalo and Minnesota from getting torn apart.
Ennis is the one that will be screwed, not Regier. What is Ennis going to do? He will have to take less money than he probably wants to.

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08-30-2012, 05:01 PM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Ennis is the one that will be screwed, not Regier. What is Ennis going to do? He will have to take less money than he probably wants to.
If I'm Ennis' agent, I tell him to sit tight until the CBA is finalized... and if Buffalo is over the cap, I go see if anyone wants to OS him for a decent deal (say in the ballpark of what Turris just got), take my 10% and smile on the way to the bank.

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