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Why We Don't Need a #1 D

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Old
06-27-2012, 04:21 PM
  #51
Tie Domi Esquire
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Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
HF made a list (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1217553) and Phaneuf ranked 25th. A bit low for me, but HF hates him. Still a #1 by their standards.
Some guys ranked higher than him aren't even #1 defensemen on their own team. HFBoards.

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06-27-2012, 04:32 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by JGardiner51 View Post
Duncan Keith = #1 Dman
Norris Trophy winning Dmen like Duncan Keith in 2009-10 as NHL best Dman, apparently don't qualify as #1 Dman.

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06-27-2012, 04:38 PM
  #53
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I find Phaneuf incredibly frustrating to watch at times, but he's still growing as a defenceman and trying to round out his game a little more. With a healthy Liles and an emerging Franson/Gardiner, hopefully he won't gas himself with those 28+ minute games anymore. Also, look how much Gunnarsson has improved in the last 2 seasons. He's still only 25. I think he and Phaneuf could be a pretty solid first pairing for a while.

edit: then again, I also think Bozak-Grabo-Colborne looks promising up the middle, so what do I know about the value of #1D or #1C?

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06-27-2012, 04:52 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Norris Trophy winning Dmen like Duncan Keith in 2009-10 as NHL best Dman, apparently don't qualify as #1 Dman.
Seabrook has been playing better than him for the last 2 seasons.

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06-27-2012, 05:26 PM
  #55
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Phaneuf is a legit #1.5 defenseman(not a legit #1 dman, but better than a #2). Therefore I don't think we need a "legit number 1" but rather a guy like Seidenberg to play and compliment Phaneuf.

Although IIRC Phaneuf was playing at/close to Norris calibre the first few weeks of the season, and his play declined when he started plying 25+ mins a night. If used correctly by Carlyle, and not overworked, it wouldn't surprise me to see Phaneuf have a breakthrough season and emerge as that true number 1 guy.

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06-27-2012, 06:35 PM
  #56
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Phaneuf is #1dman, but not a franchise player.

That simple

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06-27-2012, 06:37 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
That's not what a number one defenceman is.
If that's true, then the classification of "Number 1 d-man" is wrong.

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06-27-2012, 07:26 PM
  #58
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IMO a "legit #1 dman" is a guy who has a very positive impact on the game at even strength, a guy who you really want out there all the time 5 on 5, who you will play as many minutes as he can handle. He should also be very good on either the PP or PK, though he doesn't necessarily have to be great at both.

Phaneuf, IMO is a borderline #1 dman. He's quite strong offensively, quite good on the PP, and about average on the PK. Plus he brings the monster hits, which is nice. His impact isn't high enough to be a really good #1 dman, too many breakdowns defensively while not being dominant enough offensively to make up for it (like Karlsson), but he's still a very good player, and a decent #1 dman. I think Rielly and Gardiner also have the potential to become #1 dmen, though there's obviously nothing close to a guarantee that they'll get there. Overall we're pretty set on d, Phaneuf/Gardiner/Rielly is a really nice d-core going forward, and we aren't short on supporting players either (on the team or in the AHL/CHL). We just need to find the right combination of players so that we can actually keep the puck out of the net.

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06-27-2012, 07:29 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForzaItalia View Post
I don't think Phaneuf is a #1D.
Phaneuf is a top 30 dman in the league.

There are 30 teams in the league.

By default he is. May not be top 10 in the league, but he is definitely a top 30, and thats enough to call him a #1.

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06-27-2012, 07:53 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calcal798 View Post
Phaneuf is a top 30 dman in the league.

There are 30 teams in the league.

By default he is. May not be top 10 in the league, but he is definitely a top 30, and thats enough to call him a #1.
So by the laws of default Leafs also have a #1 center & #1 goalie comparable to other teams top centers and goalies because after all every team has to have one.

However Phaneuf would be a top pairing defender on most NHL teams so by using the big picture view of how a player would be positioned on all 30 teams is probably a better representation of defining a #1 or #2 dman league wide compared to his piers.

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06-27-2012, 08:20 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
So by the laws of default Leafs also have a #1 center & #1 goalie comparable to other teams top centers and goalies because after all every team has to have one.
Incorrect, that's not what he is saying.

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06-27-2012, 08:32 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
there are A LOT of guys above him on that list that I would never trade Phaneuf for!
That list has some issues I wouldn't reference it. The grass is always greener on the other side, or call it the Mats Sundin syndrome. Some ppl here other than trolls who disguise themselves as leaf fans (yes we know you are there) never really appreciate what we have on our team. True we are not there yet, but we are getting there and when it does happen most of these ppl won't even know it has happened.

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06-27-2012, 10:18 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by KesselLooksLikeRadar View Post
If that's true, then the classification of "Number 1 d-man" is wrong.
No. There's a difference between a team's number one defenceman and a number one defenceman. Suter was the number two defenceman on Nashville (depending who you talk to I guess), but he is certainly a number one defenceman.

Conversely, Ryan Whitney on Edmonton is their number one defenceman, but, well...

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06-27-2012, 11:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
No. There's a difference between a team's number one defenceman and a number one defenceman. Suter was the number two defenceman on Nashville (depending who you talk to I guess), but he is certainly a number one defenceman.

Conversely, Ryan Whitney on Edmonton is their number one defenceman, but, well...
Well, both Weber and Suter are top 30 d-men in the league, so, that would make them number 1 d-men. Whtiney isn't a top 30 d-man, and thus not a number 1.

A "Number 1 d-man", in a vacuum, is technically a top 30 d-man. Phaneuf is, in my mind, in that top 30. Sometimes, it's that simple.

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06-28-2012, 12:00 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by questhockey View Post
Phanuef is a top pairing guy only with a defensive minded partner... period.
If he doesn't have someone to cover his ass, he's a 3/4 guy, no matter how many points he puts up, or how much he's paid.

Kinda like saying Wideman(signed today) is worth 5.25 Million a year (NUTZ) because he puts up big points...it a huge problem in the league when points outshine, complete player.

Wideman puts up lots of points but causes lots of points against also due to poor defensive play...Same a Phaneuf.
The fact that you are comparing Dennis Wideman of all players to Dion Phaneuf, tells me that you have never seen Dennis Wideman play. Wideman is a terrible defenseman, a guy I wouldn't even want as my bottom pairing defenseman.

Phaneuf has been overworked during his tenure in Toronto, and I think the blame should fall on Wilson. With our supposedly "deep" defense core, we should be able to give Phaneuf more favorable minutes instead of riding him 26mins a game for no apparent reason game-in-game-out.

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06-28-2012, 12:18 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KesselLooksLikeRadar View Post
Well, both Weber and Suter are top 30 d-men in the league, so, that would make them number 1 d-men. Whtiney isn't a top 30 d-man, and thus not a number 1.

A "Number 1 d-man", in a vacuum, is technically a top 30 d-man. Phaneuf is, in my mind, in that top 30. Sometimes, it's that simple.
That number 30 has nothing to do with anything.

A top 30 defenceman is not necessarily a number one defenceman. There are not necessarily 30 number one defencemen... or there may be even more than 30. That number is irrelevant.

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06-28-2012, 12:29 AM
  #67
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11 d-men outscored Phaneuf. 9 d-men had more avg ice time. Phaneuf is a #1 no matter what people think and I still believe in him.

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06-28-2012, 12:32 AM
  #68
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About time people starting standing up for Phaneuf.

He's a #1, and I'm real happy to have him on our side.

I feel like someone like Percy would compliment Phaneuf perfectly. Too bad he's a bit behind, seeing as he just turned 20 (19 maybe?)

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06-28-2012, 12:33 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
That number 30 has nothing to do with anything.

A top 30 defenceman is not necessarily a number one defenceman. There are not necessarily 30 number one defencemen... or there may be even more than 30. That number is irrelevant.
I don't think it's completely irrelevant, but, I see your point. I think you understand what I am trying to say. Suffice to say I think we do have a great d-man in Phaneuf, and the classification of "Number 1 d-man" is merely semantics.

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06-28-2012, 12:40 AM
  #70
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Phaneuf is a borderline #1 d-man, every game he makes a questionable play in his own end and his hockey IQ is arguably the worst I have seen for a #1 d-man.

I would say Rielly will be that #1 D guy for us, just give him few years and he will prove his worth as a dynamic #1 d-man in the mold of Karlsson(though not exactly at his level offensively) with size and slightly better in his own end. He definitely has the potential to be one, so we shall see how it plays out.

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06-28-2012, 01:03 AM
  #71
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Not a big Phaneuf fan.... but...

He's a good d-man, not great and far from elite. He gives the puck away frequently and gets torched more times than many of us would like. For a guy wearing a "C", he has too many brain farts during a game. Basically I think he tries to do too much and it hurts his game.

On our club today, he's a top pairing guy.

The only way he gets better is from a veteran d-man coming in and helping him lead the way, on the ice and off. A guy like Hal Gill, look what he did with PK in Montreal. Gill will turn to coaching when he retires so I tend to think he'd be a positive influence with his experience and skill set. He plays within his limitations, which is fairly effective. Also, having Farrish & Carlyle is going to help our d-men too.

We need some more experience on our blue line. We've got some young guys that need guidance, DP ain't providing it.

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06-28-2012, 01:49 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfernee Hardaway View Post
Some guys ranked higher than him aren't even #1 defensemen on their own team. HFBoards.
so? teams can have more then 1 player capable of playing as the #1 dmen. take Nashville as an example easily have 2 #1 defensemen just because someone has to play as #2 doesn't mean he's not a number 1

did you consider Pronger a #2 Dmen because he played with Niedermayer?

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06-28-2012, 08:40 AM
  #73
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@RealBillWatters: Phaneuf,Bowmeester and now Wideman; all three grossly overpaid(not worth 4M) and not a NO.1 guy among them.A watershed moment for Feaster.

I'm not posting this to add fuel.

I think I mostly agree with the op

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06-28-2012, 08:53 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
@RealBillWatters: Phaneuf,Bowmeester and now Wideman; all three grossly overpaid(not worth 4M) and not a NO.1 guy among them.A watershed moment for Feaster.

I'm not posting this to add fuel.

I think I mostly agree with the op
I don't think Feaster signed the other two.
Bouw is probably the best defensively.
Phaneuf is the best balanced of the bunch
Wideman/Phaneuf are pretty close offensively


If anything watters should be ragging on Komisarek at 4.5M.
His statement is more appropriate for him

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06-28-2012, 09:09 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Uncle Slick View Post
Not a big Phaneuf fan.... but...

He's a good d-man, not great and far from elite. He gives the puck away frequently and gets torched more times than many of us would like. For a guy wearing a "C", he has too many brain farts during a game. Basically I think he tries to do too much and it hurts his game.

On our club today, he's a top pairing guy.

The only way he gets better is from a veteran d-man coming in and helping him lead the way, on the ice and off. A guy like Hal Gill, look what he did with PK in Montreal. Gill will turn to coaching when he retires so I tend to think he'd be a positive influence with his experience and skill set. He plays within his limitations, which is fairly effective. Also, having Farrish & Carlyle is going to help our d-men too.

We need some more experience on our blue line. We've got some young guys that need guidance, DP ain't providing it.
If Phaneuf is merely "good" and not Great or Elite, I'd love to hear you critique the rest of the team. As others have said, Phaneuf is among the top scoring D men, among the top in ice time and is an imposing physical presence not to mention the captain of the Maple Leafs.

Just good huh? Think you might be a weeee bit off base here.

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