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We drank the Marleau, yet the whine remains (Off-Season Speculation Thread Part VI)

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Old
07-08-2012, 04:08 PM
  #976
Ninja Hertl
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Hmm, I wish I could say that after going away on a business trip for most of the last week I expected to come back to find the Sharks had signed Parise, Suter, and DW had made a smart trade.

But it's not really a surprise at all that Parise and Suter did not sign in SJ (never expected them to), or that DW has not made a move this free agent season other than over-paying a 4th-liner with a Cup ring and given him way too long of a contract.

At this point I have to wonder if I still follow the Sharks so closely because the I hope the team will improve and win the Cup, or if it's the way you watch the Jersey Shore (I never have) or similar shows, and I'm just fascinated by how big a train-wreck DW will eventually cause the team to be. DW seems to be the Lindsay Lohan of hockey (tans and all).
I wonder how high your blood pressure would be if you were a fan of a team that actually sucks, ie oilers, islanders, leafs...

shouldn't you be happy that he didn't trade away any of our futures yet?

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07-08-2012, 04:19 PM
  #977
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We kept our first, drafted a forward, and branched out from Boston/NA. Vaasa should be happy.

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07-08-2012, 04:20 PM
  #978
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We kept our first, drafted a forward, and branched out from Boston/NA. Vaasa should be happy.
Is Vaasa ever happy? He might be if DW is fired.

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07-08-2012, 04:38 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by sharkohol View Post
I wonder how high your blood pressure would be if you were a fan of a team that actually sucks, ie oilers, islanders, leafs...

shouldn't you be happy that he didn't trade away any of our futures yet?
Are you kidding? All those shiny prospects? He'd be the happiest fan on the planet.

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Old
07-08-2012, 04:44 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
other than over-paying a 4th-liner with a Cup ring and given him way too long of a contract.
Brandon Prust: 4 years 2.5 million
Jordan Tootoo: 3 years 1.9 million
Paul Gaustad: 4 years 3.25 million
Torrey Mitchell: 3 years 1.9 million

I don't see how Burish is overpaid.

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07-08-2012, 04:45 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Brandon Prust: 4 years 2.5 million
Jordan Tootoo: 3 years 1.9 million
Paul Gaustad: 4 years 3.25 million
Torrey Mitchell: 3 years 1.9 million

I don't see how Burish is overpaid.
Especially since he has been used as a third liner these last two seasons and so far is the Sharks 7th best forward. But hey maybe making about 100k less than Mitchell is breaking the bank for Burish

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07-08-2012, 04:52 PM
  #982
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Especially since he has been used as a third liner these last two seasons and so far is the Sharks 7th best forward. But hey maybe making about 100k less than Mitchell is breaking the bank for Burish
His lack of scoring touch is the issue. It takes him below the guys listed. Of the list, Gaustad was the furthest out of line.

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:06 PM
  #983
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Is Vaasa ever happy? He might be if DW is fired.
I would at least be hopeful. It would depend on who replaced him. They could always replace him with someone even worse. But yeah, I would at least be fairly happy if they fired DW as a start. If they added Sommer I would be really happy. If they then brought in a competent AHL coach and a better GM, I would be ecstatic.

I'm not holding my breath on any of those. But it's nice to hope.

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07-08-2012, 05:10 PM
  #984
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His lack of scoring touch is the issue. It takes him below the guys listed. Of the list, Gaustad was the furthest out of line.
Yes, because Torrey Mitchell is an offensive phenom...

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:10 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I would at least be hopeful. It would depend on who replaced him. They could always replace him with someone even worse. But yeah, I would at least be fairly happy if they fired DW as a start. If they added Sommer I would be really happy. If they then brought in a competent AHL coach and a better GM, I would be ecstatic.

I'm not holding my breath on any of those. But it's nice to hope.
What would you do if they fired DW and hired Howson?

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:14 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Brandon Prust: 4 years 2.5 million
Jordan Tootoo: 3 years 1.9 million
Paul Gaustad: 4 years 3.25 million
Torrey Mitchell: 3 years 1.9 million

I don't see how Burish is overpaid.
To quote one my Grandmother's favorite sayings, "Just because everyone else leaps off the cliff to their death, does that mean you should too?" (she changed from the "off the bridge" analogy after my brother said "if it's over water and not too high, why not?" too many times).

All of those guys are overpaid, just like Burish is. Gaustad is the most overpaid (by a lot IMO), Mitchell is getting twice what he should, Prust should be under $1.5, and Tootoo is probably the closest to being paid well (he should be getting about $1.5 IMO).

Burish has played on the 3rd line because of injuries. He doesn't have the talent to play on the 3rd. He's an agitating, defensively-decent 4th line guy. And he's had major issues staying healthy. I would have much rather had Tootoo among this list.

But honestly, none of them at the prices they got are remotely worth it. It's just another dumb move by DW (like Handzus, his first call on July 1st is to a bottom 6 guy that he overpays and offers too much of contract too). Re-signing Moore at the price or less would have been a much better move, as at least Moore is a legit 3rd-line talent (with some family issues at the moment).

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:18 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
What would you do if they fired DW and hired Howson?
Go back to the team I grew up, the Bruins. If the org hired Howson I would know that ownership was completely nuts and that the team would not be worth following until there were new owners and Howson was gone.

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:25 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
To quote one my Grandmother's favorite sayings, "Just because everyone else leaps off the cliff to their death, does that mean you should too?" (she changed from the "off the bridge" analogy after my brother said "if it's over water and not too high, why not?" too many times).

All of those guys are overpaid, just like Burish is. Gaustad is the most overpaid (by a lot IMO), Mitchell is getting twice what he should, Prust should be under $1.5, and Tootoo is probably the closest to being paid well (he should be getting about $1.5 IMO).

Burish has played on the 3rd line because of injuries. He doesn't have the talent to play on the 3rd. He's an agitating, defensively-decent 4th line guy. And he's had major issues staying healthy. I would have much rather had Tootoo among this list.

But honestly, none of them at the prices they got are remotely worth it. It's just another dumb move by DW (like Handzus, his first call on July 1st is to a bottom 6 guy that he overpays and offers too much of contract too). Re-signing Moore at the price or less would have been a much better move, as at least Moore is a legit 3rd-line talent (with some family issues at the moment).
It's how the league operates. You aren't going to get Burish-type players for anything less. The salary cap is higher and role players are getting paid more. Instead of saying "everyone is overpaid", it's more logical to say that is league value for these players now (well, except for Gaustad). Would you rather DW sit on his hands and run a bottom 6 of Galiardi, Desjardins, Wingels, McLaren, Matsumoto, and Handzus?

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:37 PM
  #989
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What would you do if they fired DW and hired Howson?
First thing Howson would do in San Jose is trade Couture and Pavelski for Rick Nash because that's obviously what Howson thinks he's worth

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:40 PM
  #990
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I would at least be hopeful. It would depend on who replaced him. They could always replace him with someone even worse. But yeah, I would at least be fairly happy if they fired DW as a start. If they added Sommer I would be really happy. If they then brought in a competent AHL coach and a better GM, I would be ecstatic.

I'm not holding my breath on any of those. But it's nice to hope.
Vaasa, every time I read your posts, I'm always reading them in Sheldon Cooper's voice because of your avatar... every time

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:42 PM
  #991
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And like I said, financial stability is not an issue in New Jersey and Parise never told them that it was so I don't know where you're getting that.
NJ lost $20m this year despite making the scf. They're on the verge of filing bankruptcy and are having problems at the gate. Unless if things have changed in the last month or so that I'm not aware of...I'd call that financial stability issues.

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:42 PM
  #992
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His lack of scoring touch is the issue. It takes him below the guys listed. Of the list, Gaustad was the furthest out of line.
Jordan Tootoo and Torrey Mitchell have scoring touch? Burish also brings more to the table than those two players.

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07-08-2012, 05:48 PM
  #993
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It's how the league operates. You aren't going to get Burish-type players for anything less. The salary cap is higher and role players are getting paid more. Instead of saying "everyone is overpaid", it's more logical to say that is league value for these players now (well, except for Gaustad). Would you rather DW sit on his hands and run a bottom 6 of Galiardi, Desjardins, Wingels, McLaren, Matsumoto, and Handzus?
Actually, yes. But to go back to the point I've raised so many times in the past it has now become a standard joke on this forum (although constantly mis-understood), most of a teams 3rd and 4th lines should be made up of young players and prospects from within the system who are challenging your top 6 for time. Especially the 3rd line (which should be a teams better prospects plus maybe a few declining former top-6).

A few key additions via free agency or trades should be sufficient. But if you are paying market rates for most of the 3rd and 4th liners on your team, you are overpaying. Who cares what the rest of the league thinks? The simple fact is that most 3rd and 4th line players are barely better than a lot of the AHL talent anyway.

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07-08-2012, 05:51 PM
  #994
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Actually, yes. But to go back to the point I've raised so many times in the past it has now become a standard joke on this forum (although constantly mis-understood), most of a teams 3rd and 4th lines should be made up of young players and prospects from within the system who are challenging your top 6 for time. Especially the 3rd line (which should be a teams better prospects plus maybe a few declining former top-6).

A few key additions via free agency or trades should be sufficient. But if you are paying market rates for most of the 3rd and 4th liners on your team, you are overpaying. Who cares what the rest of the league thinks? The simple fact is that most 3rd and 4th line players are barely better than a lot of the AHL talent anyway.
That's simply not at all true. A good third liner is much more than an AHL player.

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07-08-2012, 05:55 PM
  #995
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Jordan Tootoo and Torrey Mitchell have scoring touch? Burish also brings more to the table than those two players.
Both Tootoo and Mitchell have at least hit double-digits in goals (11 and 10 respectively). Burish never has. Mitchell has hit 20+ points a couple of times, Burish never has. Tootoo has held up better physically, and is a world-class agitator (he can be a d-bad, but he's really able to get under other players skins). Tootoo has twice as many playoff points as Burish, in only 2 games more.

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07-08-2012, 05:57 PM
  #996
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That's simply not at all true. A good third liner is much more than an AHL player.
A good 3rd liner is. But a lot of the 3rd liners out there aren't that good. Both Burish and Tootoo have played on the 3rd line at times, but I would consider either a "legit" (to me at least) 3rd liner.

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07-08-2012, 06:03 PM
  #997
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A few key additions via free agency or trades should be sufficient. But if you are paying market rates for most of the 3rd and 4th liners on your team, you are overpaying. Who cares what the rest of the league thinks? The simple fact is that most 3rd and 4th line players are barely better than a lot of the AHL talent anyway.
In the Sharks system, the 3rd and 4th line players are a lot better than what they have in the AHL. You can bring up poor drafting here, but that's a completely different argument than the Burish one. The Sharks don't have the a great farm to fill out their 3rd and 4th lines so they have to sign role players, and in Burish's case, he's getting paid what he's worth. And right now, the Sharks have 2 bottom-6 players that they got via FA. I wouldn't call 2 "most of the 3rd and 4th lines".

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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Both Tootoo and Mitchell have at least hit double-digits in goals (11 and 10 respectively). Burish never has. Mitchell has hit 20+ points a couple of times, Burish never has. Tootoo has held up better physically, and is a world-class agitator (he can be a d-bad, but he's really able to get under other players skins). Tootoo has twice as many playoff points as Burish, in only 2 games more.
Except you're only looking at the stat sheet instead of their actual play on the ice. Burish is far better than either of the two at the possession game, and is better defensively than both of them.

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07-08-2012, 06:12 PM
  #998
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A good 3rd liner is. But a lot of the 3rd liners out there aren't that good. Both Burish and Tootoo have played on the 3rd line at times, but I would consider either a "legit" (to me at least) 3rd liner.
I really don't think that an average 3rd liner is the same as an AHL player. Yes, a "lot" or third liners aren't that good, but plenty are. A good third line, or at least a decent one, is a very underrated important part of the game.

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07-08-2012, 06:16 PM
  #999
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NJ lost $20m this year despite making the scf. They're on the verge of filing bankruptcy and are having problems at the gate. Unless if things have changed in the last month or so that I'm not aware of...I'd call that financial stability issues.
If you can source these comments then fine. People have been saying the Devils were on the verge of bankruptcy since before the season started. They raked in over 30 million dollars from the playoffs and likely pushed that plus the 10 mil advance from the league into the 77 million they owe this summer. They've been refinancing the debt and working on getting a new investor or two as well. Things that are fairly standard for a team in the position the Devils are in. They don't have financial stability issues.

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07-08-2012, 06:18 PM
  #1000
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Time to move on to the next one!

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9#post52311219

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