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Offseason Discussion VIII: Dennis Wideman Superstar (Contract/FA charts in Post #1)

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Old
06-28-2012, 06:17 PM
  #201
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What do you think Shero's back up plans are? I think Suter is a must for our team. But what if we lose out on both Suter and Parise?

I wouldn't mind seeing Matt Carle in a Pens jersey. And obviously I think Doan would be very Guerin-esque next to Crosby. And if the back up plan is put to use, will Paul Martin still be dealt? I can only see a few solid players being the return (Chris Stewart, Brendan Morrow) or else it would be picks and prospects.

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06-28-2012, 06:23 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by sniugneP View Post
That's awesome! It would be cool if they put Burkle and Lemieux on those guys in background.
I didn't make the image, but I'll have to remember to try doing that the next time I get a chance.

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06-28-2012, 06:31 PM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conooper View Post
What do you think Shero's back up plans are? I think Suter is a must for our team. But what if we lose out on both Suter and Parise?

I wouldn't mind seeing Matt Carle in a Pens jersey. And obviously I think Doan would be very Guerin-esque next to Crosby. And if the back up plan is put to use, will Paul Martin still be dealt? I can only see a few solid players being the return (Chris Stewart, Brendan Morrow) or else it would be picks and prospects.
I think Shero has a few dmen ready to roll, truthfully, that we aren't talking about via trade. He's pretty calculated and very good at keeping things quiet. He plays the media perfectly.

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06-28-2012, 06:38 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I think Shero has a few dmen ready to roll, truthfully, that we aren't talking about via trade. He's pretty calculated and very good at keeping things quiet. He plays the media perfectly.
Yeah, you rarely hear about what Shero is planning on doing. Both in FA and through trade.

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06-28-2012, 06:43 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by conooper View Post
What do you think Shero's back up plans are? I think Suter is a must for our team. But what if we lose out on both Suter and Parise?

I wouldn't mind seeing Matt Carle in a Pens jersey. And obviously I think Doan would be very Guerin-esque next to Crosby. And if the back up plan is put to use, will Paul Martin still be dealt? I can only see a few solid players being the return (Chris Stewart, Brendan Morrow) or else it would be picks and prospects.
Personally would rather get Suter and then a couple top 6 forwards over Suter and Parise.

Absolutely do not want to see Carle here. Would love to see Allen or someone like him. Likely instead of Niskanen (which will make me sad). There's several FA forwards I hope Shero looks at (likely instead of Parise - despite how the board feels). Although if we don't get Suter, then sure sign Parise.

Mueller
Doan
Lattendress
Semin
Hudler
Penner
Smyth
Samuelsson
Huselius
Boyes
Blake

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06-28-2012, 07:06 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Personally would rather get Suter and then a couple top 6 forwards over Suter and Parise.

Absolutely do not want to see Carle here. Would love to see Allen or someone like him. Likely instead of Niskanen (which will make me sad). There's several FA forwards I hope Shero looks at (likely instead of Parise - despite how the board feels). Although if we don't get Suter, then sure sign Parise.

Mueller
Doan
Lattendress
Semin
Hudler
Penner
Smyth
Samuelsson
Huselius
Boyes
Blake
There are like 2...maybe 3 names out of that list that I would ever want to pursue.

Alex "Healthy scratch because I'm a lazy ****" Semin...are you people serious!?

Peter "The Colorado F'in Avs won't send a Qual Offer my way" Mueller?

Duster "Lazy POS that hurts himself while eating pancakes" Penner?

Brad "Soft as a pillow, overpayed as heck, reclaimation project" Boyes?

These names keep popping up as potential targets and I can NOT for the life of me figuring out whats going through your guys head. (Rip, this is not a personal attack on you, BTW). These are literally the exact OPPOSITE of the players Shero targets!


Last edited by shureshot66: 06-28-2012 at 07:11 PM. Reason: No politics, please.
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06-28-2012, 07:15 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Personally would rather get Suter and then a couple top 6 forwards over Suter and Parise.

Absolutely do not want to see Carle here. Would love to see Allen or someone like him. Likely instead of Niskanen (which will make me sad). There's several FA forwards I hope Shero looks at (likely instead of Parise - despite how the board feels). Although if we don't get Suter, then sure sign Parise.

Mueller
Doan
Lattendress
Semin
Hudler
Penner
Smyth
Samuelsson
Huselius
Boyes
Blake
I guess I'm still going against the grain in that I don't want Suter at $7m+. I hope we land Parise to give us an unstoppable top 6 and then sign a physical, short term solution on defense like Allen.

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06-28-2012, 07:21 PM
  #208
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I guess I'm still going against the grain in that I don't want Suter at $7m+. I hope we land Parise to give us an unstoppable top 6 and then sign a physical, short term solution on defense like Allen.
I would be happy either way. I want Parise way way way more than Suter.

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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
There are like 2...maybe 3 names out of that list that I would ever want to pursue.

Alex "Healthy scratch because I'm a lazy ****" Semin...are you people serious!?

Peter "The Colorado F'in Avs won't send a Qual Offer my way" Mueller?

Duster "Lazy POS that hurts himself while eating pancakes" Penner?

Brad "Soft as a pillow, overpayed as heck, reclaimation project" Boyes?

These names keep popping up as potential targets and I can NOT for the life of me figuring out whats going through your guys head. (Rip, this is not a personal attack on you, BTW). These are literally the exact OPPOSITE of the players Shero targets!
Penner is a solid player. Probably gonna be overpaid, but for 3-4M he'd be a good backup plan. He was very good in these last playoffs.

Semin would be the best wing Sid has played with since Hossa. He would make our powerplay very very scary. Did you watch the Caps at all in the playoffs? Semin was working his ass off to backcheck and block shots. Probably going to get overpaid, but he's the best winger available after Parise. Maybe behind Doan depending what you want. He is THE most productive player available even over Parise. I don't like the guy, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think he'd make us a better team than almost anyone else available.

Mueller and Boyes would be backup plans but I'd take them over Sullivan if the price is right.

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06-28-2012, 07:37 PM
  #209
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If Shero whiffs on Suter, I'd just as soon stand pat on D, rather than overpay one of the "next tier" guys.

With the young guys that will be knocking on the door, we don't need to be giving Allen or Carle a 4 or 5 year big-money deal. I'd probably take one of them on a two year deal, but surely that won't get it done.

So if anything, scrape the barrel for a one-year stop-gap. Maybe Spacek or Salvador.

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06-28-2012, 07:44 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
If Shero whiffs on Suter, I'd just as soon stand pat on D, rather than overpay one of the "next tier" guys.

With the young guys that will be knocking on the door, we don't need to be giving Allen or Carle a 4 or 5 year big-money deal. I'd probably take one of them on a two year deal, but surely that won't get it done.

So if anything, scrape the barrel for a one-year stop-gap. Maybe Spacek or Salvador.
Aucoin would be another 1 year stop gap to be had cheap if all else fails.

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06-28-2012, 07:52 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
If Shero whiffs on Suter, I'd just as soon stand pat on D, rather than overpay one of the "next tier" guys.

With the young guys that will be knocking on the door, we don't need to be giving Allen or Carle a 4 or 5 year big-money deal. I'd probably take one of them on a two year deal, but surely that won't get it done.

So if anything, scrape the barrel for a one-year stop-gap. Maybe Spacek or Salvador.
If Letang is as good as we all claim he is, he doesn't need a clear cut #1 D-man. Drew Doughty was a huge reason LA won the Cup with Rob Scuderi on his pairing. We just need a good complementary piece. A defensive D-man with some size.

Obviously you don't not try and go after Suter, but I'd say my ideal scenario is signing Parise and trading for a gritty top 4 guy using our youth on D as trade chips.

But I'm firmly in the camp that wants a longterm solution for Sid's line and more of a stopgap this offseason on the backend. We have the personnel on the backend coming in due time.

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06-28-2012, 07:53 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
There are like 2...maybe 3 names out of that list that I would ever want to pursue.
Alex "Healthy scratch because I'm a lazy ****" Semin...are you people serious!?
Peter "The Colorado F'in Avs won't send a Qual Offer my way" Mueller?
Duster "Lazy POS that hurts himself while eating pancakes" Penner?
Brad "Soft as a pillow, overpayed as heck, reclaimation project" Boyes?

These names keep popping up as potential targets and I can NOT for the life of me figuring out whats going through your guys head. (Rip, this is not a personal attack on you, BTW). These are literally the exact OPPOSITE of the players Shero targets!
Oh no worries. I have thick skin

Suter shores up our blueline, giving us someone who can excel in a shutdown role and is a top pairing D in the NHL. We had some issues there, and he makes an immediate difference back there. While I honestly don't think we'll get him (would be happy with Allen instead), he's plan A back there.

As for why I'd take 2 of these guys over Parise at 7m or Semin if it takes more than 5.5-6 to sign him (which it likely will). Parise or Semin would be great, but I don't see the need to pay 6.5-7.5m for an elite winger for Crosby (sorry, and I know this isn't what people want to hear). We have 2-3 difference makers in Crosby, Malkin and Neal. All Crosby needs is someone with talent (I'm not asking for bums there), who can put the puck in the net. I'd rather see him with 2 quality top 6 guys (more like Neal than Parise) than 1 elite guy and Dupuis. When it's all said and done, they will cost the same price (2 wingers vs Parise/Semin and Dupuis) - roughly 8-9m. I think we get more value putting that into 2 players than Parise and Dupuis. And while I'd rather there be a solid top 6 winger that doesn't have any risk associated to them, I don't see that option in there (well not many anyway - Hudler?). It's basically either a elite winger or someone's cast-a-ways.

Giving him 2 solid wingers gives the Pens a LOT of options going forward. Player is hurt, then you're not missing Parise for any length of time. You're missing 1 of your 2 wingers, and at that point can plug in Dupuis. New deals need to be given out to Malkin, Letang, etc. You have a lot more options if you only have Malkin, Crosby, Suter and Neal locked up long term, while everyone else is on 1-4 yr deals (depending, etc). Someone doesn't work out, or you want to make a deal for a different asset, or the cap goes down, etc? Trading a healthy/productive Mueller/Lattendress/etc on a 2-3 yr deal is a heck of a lot easier than trying to trade Parise on a 7 yr deal.

I don't mind a couple of those deals (Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Suter, Letang), but I don't want to see 48m (70%) tied up in 6-7 guys (Sid, Geno, Neal, Suter (7m), Parise (7m), Letang (6.5m), MAF).

Anyway that's my reasoning. We have a couple of elite players... we don't need a ton more (of elite ones) at the risk of not being able to fill out a roster. Most don't agree with it... but so be it.

Edit: I should say most of that is contingent on signing Suter. If they can't sign Suter, then sure sign Parise (anything less than 7.5m). I just don't want to see the team handcuffed with a ton of large long salaries.

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06-28-2012, 07:56 PM
  #213
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Another thing to consider. If we can find our answers to our lineup in free agency, we still have major trade chips on our hands in NHL ready D-men. I'd like to see Shero acquire some depth at wing. Especially if we're going after Parise rather than looking in the trade market to round out our forward group.

Ottawa, Edmonton, Minnesota, Tampa, Anaheim would all make great trade partners in that scenario.

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06-28-2012, 08:00 PM
  #214
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Another thing is, it's not impossible that Martin has a bounce back year. I actually think that Shero's Plan B might be just to keep Martin. Then he goes with something like:

Letang-Martin
Orpik-Niskanen/cheap veteran
Despres-Engelland/Niskanen

Remember, you can always do some shuffling and maneuvering in season if things aren't working out well.

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06-28-2012, 08:05 PM
  #215
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If they didn't get Suter, I could handle something like this. Not the ideal 3rd line... Perhaps get Moen or something instead of Tangradi.

Sign Parise for 7.2 for X years.
Sign Allen 3.5 for 2-3 years.
Sign Tootoo for 1.5 for 2-3 years.
Trade Niskanen for something. Trade TK for anything.

Still 2.5m in cap space.

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Zach Parise ($7.200m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Brandon Sutter ($2.067m) / Eric Tangradi ($0.850m)
Craig Adams ($0.675m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.500m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.575m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Kris Letang ($3.500m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Bryan Allen ($3.500m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
Brian Strait ($0.700m) /

GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $67,698,333; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $2,501,667

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06-28-2012, 08:06 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Oh no worries. I have thick skin

Suter shores up our blueline, giving us someone who can excel in a shutdown role and is a top pairing D in the NHL. We had some issues there, and he makes an immediate difference back there. While I honestly don't think we'll get him (would be happy with Allen instead), he's plan A back there.

As for why I'd take 2 of these guys over Parise at 7m or Semin if it takes more than 5.5-6 to sign him (which it likely will). Parise or Semin would be great, but I don't see the need to pay 6.5-7.5m for an elite winger for Crosby (sorry, and I know this isn't what people want to hear). We have 2-3 difference makers in Crosby, Malkin and Neal. All Crosby needs is someone with talent (I'm not asking for bums there), who can put the puck in the net. I'd rather see him with 2 quality top 6 guys (more like Neal than Parise) than 1 elite guy and Dupuis. When it's all said and done, they will cost the same price (2 wingers vs Parise/Semin and Dupuis) - roughly 8-9m. I think we get more value putting that into 2 players than Parise and Dupuis. And while I'd rather there be a solid top 6 winger that doesn't have any risk associated to them, I don't see that option in there (well not many anyway - Hudler?). It's basically either a elite winger or someone's cast-a-ways.

Giving him 2 solid wingers gives the Pens a LOT of options going forward. Player is hurt, then you're not missing Parise for any length of time. You're missing 1 of your 2 wingers, and at that point can plug in Dupuis. New deals need to be given out to Malkin, Letang, etc. You have a lot more options if you only have Malkin, Crosby, Suter and Neal locked up long term, while everyone else is on 1-4 yr deals (depending, etc). Someone doesn't work out, or you want to make a deal for a different asset, or the cap goes down, etc? Trading a healthy/productive Mueller/Lattendress/etc on a 2-3 yr deal is a heck of a lot easier than trying to trade Parise on a 7 yr deal.

I don't mind a couple of those deals (Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Suter, Letang), but I don't want to see 48m (70%) tied up in 6-7 guys (Sid, Geno, Neal, Suter (7m), Parise (7m), Letang (6.5m), MAF).

Anyway that's my reasoning. We have a couple of elite players... we don't need a ton more (of elite ones) at the risk of not being able to fill out a roster. Most don't agree with it... but so be it.

Edit: I should say most of that is contingent on signing Suter. If they can't sign Suter, then sure sign Parise (anything less than 7.5m). I just don't want to see the team handcuffed with a ton of large long salaries.
parise at 7 or even 8 is better than any combo we could get through fa at that price. there aren't many 3 mill bargains our there...too many teams have too much money for too few players.

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06-28-2012, 08:07 PM
  #217
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Letang is the 1D on this team; that won't change regardless of who we sign.

I agree if Shero doesn't get Suter he should stand pat most likely and give Strait and Bortuzzo their chance. He said he might actually carry 8D and I believe him.

Letang
Orpik
Martin
Despres
Engo
Nisky
Strait
Bortuzzo

I have no problems with that D, assuming we get 1 more big offensive piece like Parise or Ryan. Let the young guys play, develop, make their early season mistakes... we'll be fine IMO. If we have to we can get a good deadline trade.

Parise / Dupuis - Sid - Dupuis / Ryan
Kunitz - Geno - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Kennedy / Tangradi

+ that D

+ Flower and Vokoun

= a healthy, healthy upgrade from last year's roster. Less Vulnerable to D collapses (if you include the G situation in that), and even more fire power, hopefully with a healthy year for Sid on top of it.

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06-28-2012, 08:08 PM
  #218
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parise at 7 or even 8 is better than any combo we could get through fa at that price. there aren't many 3 mill bargains our there...too many teams have too much money for too few players.
No I doubt you'd get any of those guys for less than 4m. But I'd still rather spend 8m between 2 guys than 8-9 on Parise and Dupuis if we already have Suter at 7+.

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06-28-2012, 08:08 PM
  #219
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parise at 7 or even 8 is better than any combo we could get through fa at that price. there aren't many 3 mill bargains our there...too many teams have too much money for too few players.
Yeah, good point. It seems like nobody makes 3M. Guys are either getting 4-5, or they're getting 1.5.

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06-28-2012, 08:08 PM
  #220
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Oh no worries. I have thick skin

Suter shores up our blueline, giving us someone who can excel in a shutdown role and is a top pairing D in the NHL. We had some issues there, and he makes an immediate difference back there. While I honestly don't think we'll get him (would be happy with Allen instead), he's plan A back there.

As for why I'd take 2 of these guys over Parise at 7m or Semin if it takes more than 5.5-6 to sign him (which it likely will). Parise or Semin would be great, but I don't see the need to pay 6.5-7.5m for an elite winger for Crosby (sorry, and I know this isn't what people want to hear). We have 2-3 difference makers in Crosby, Malkin and Neal. All Crosby needs is someone with talent (I'm not asking for bums there), who can put the puck in the net. I'd rather see him with 2 quality top 6 guys (more like Neal than Parise) than 1 elite guy and Dupuis. When it's all said and done, they will cost the same price (2 wingers vs Parise/Semin and Dupuis) - roughly 8-9m. I think we get more value putting that into 2 players than Parise and Dupuis. And while I'd rather there be a solid top 6 winger that doesn't have any risk associated to them, I don't see that option in there (well not many anyway - Hudler/Penner?). It's basically either a elite winger or someone's cast-a-ways.

Giving him 2 solid wingers gives the Pens a LOT of options going forward. Player is hurt, then you're not missing Parise for any length of time. You're missing 1 of your 2 wingers, and at that point can plug in Dupuis. New deals need to be given out to Malkin, Letang, etc. You have a lot more options if you only have Malkin, Crosby, Suter and Neal locked up long term, while everyone else is on 1-4 yr deals (depending, etc). Someone doesn't work out, or you want to make a deal for a different asset, or the cap goes down, etc? Trading a healthy/productive Mueller/Lattendress/etc on a 2-3 yr deal is a heck of a lot easier than trying to trade Parise on a 7 yr deal.

I don't mind a couple of those deals (Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Suter, Letang), but I don't want to see 48m (70%) tied up in 6-7 guys (Sid, Geno, Neal, Suter (7m), Parise (7m), Letang (6.5m), MAF).

Anyway that's my reasoning. We have a couple of elite players... we don't need a ton more (of elite ones) at the risk of not being able to fill out a roster. Most don't agree with it... but so be it.

Edit: I should say most of that is contingent on signing Suter. If they can't sign Suter, then sure sign Parise (anything less than 7.5m). I just don't want to see the team handcuffed with a ton of large long salaries.
I look at it as 3 levels.
1. Guys that are good enough that you don't mind Dupuis on the other wing. Parise or Nash. Ryan is good enough for that imo, but cap-wise fits into the next group.
2. Guys that can be the main addition but you would want to upgrade over Dupuis on the other wing. Doan, Ryan, Semin (but probably too expensive) or Whitney.
3. Guys I would want as a second wing signing if we got a guy from group 2 but hopefully aren't the big signing at wing. Boyes, Mueller, Penner, etc.

I agree with you that the right combination of 2's and 3's could be just as effective as option 1. Though if we do miss Suter, we can probably afford a guy like Parise and a guy like Mueller or Letandresse.

One problem is that the fallback options currently available aren't going to be solid locks to be a long term solution. Most of those guys are either older like Doan or Whitney, or have some question marks either in health or work ethic that would make us want to sign them short term for now.

The good news is, I think there are more fall-back plans than a lot of people seem to think. We may not like Penner or Kostitsyn, but they are better players than Sullivan.

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06-28-2012, 08:14 PM
  #221
Dupree13
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I love Dupuis, and people forget that the dude had 59 points last year. Only 10 less than Parise. But I'm not sure that his style of play would be that good with those two. Therefore, if we are lucky enough to get Parise, I'd be in favor of bringing Sullivan back for 1.5. At his age, there is a concern about rapid decline. But if he could reproduce his form from last year, his handsy, playmaking style could mesh very nicely with Cros/Parise.

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06-28-2012, 08:15 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
No I doubt you'd get any of those guys for less than 4m. But I'd still rather spend 8m between 2 guys than 8-9 on Parise and Dupuis if we already have Suter at 7+.
Id rather have a sure stud at 8 like zp then gamble on two guys that might turn out to be ville leino. its tough to build responsibly through fa. Guys are going to get stupid money for stupid terms. At least parise will be close to worth it

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06-28-2012, 08:16 PM
  #223
Riptide
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I agree with you that the right combination of 2's and 3's could be just as effective as option 1. Though if we do miss Suter, we can probably afford a guy like Parise and a guy like Mueller or Letandresse.
...
The good news is, I think there are more fall-back plans than a lot of people seem to think. We may not like Penner or Kostitsyn, but they are better players than Sullivan.
Really depends on what Shero does with the D. One 7m contract does nothing really to the team (so either Suter or Parise). They can still make other acquisitions. But there's not much more than 7m or so (which I spent on Allen and Tootoo) to spend without moving Martin (who's icetime needs to be replaced, etc).

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06-28-2012, 08:17 PM
  #224
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We absolutely need another gritty defender for next year. Whether Martin stays or leaves. That must happen. It's just as important as getting Sid some help on his line.

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06-28-2012, 08:18 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
We absolutely need another gritty defender for next year. Whether Martin stays or leaves. That must happen. It's just as important as getting Sid some help on his line.
Well if that's the case, then we probably need to get a gritty defender even if we land Suter. Because that's not really his department either.

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