HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Roster Thoughts and Offseason Speculation for the 2012-2013 Season II

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-28-2012, 03:09 PM
  #51
Herby
Culture Changer
 
Herby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 15,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
But...putting Doan on that third line...imagine the younger players having to look Doan in the eye after round 1, 3 or 4, game 4s. If Doan is on the team instead of say Gagne or Nolan or whomever, we sweep New Jersey. There is no game 5 in Newark.
Dude. It's Shane Doan. Not Steve Yzerman we are talking about.

This was the first time in his sixteen seasons he made it out of the first round. I'm not saying it's all his fault, but lets not put him on a pedestal here.

Herby is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 03:13 PM
  #52
Rorschach
Fearful Symmetry
 
Rorschach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 6,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
You mean less speed and responsible hockey and more dumb mistakes? Clifford needs the AHL right now like a ***** needs a good shower.
Does anyone else here agree with this that Richardson>Clifford on the Kings? I know Richardson was a healthy scratch and only got to play this run because of Clifford was concussed by Bitz in round 1. Then Richardson is the first player pulled when Gagne is re-inserted.

I think Richardson is a King in name only. He simply doesnt put out the consistent effort a real LA King does.

Rorschach is online now  
Old
06-28-2012, 03:18 PM
  #53
Rorschach
Fearful Symmetry
 
Rorschach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 6,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Dude. It's Shane Doan. Not Steve Yzerman we are talking about.

This was the first time in his sixteen seasons he made it out of the first round. I'm not saying it's all his fault, but lets not put him on a pedestal here.
Don't infer that when I say that Shane Doan would make a good King in the playoffs that I would pay him 5 mil to play here let alone 5 mil when he's 41.

And on a personal level I'd be more afraid of Doan than Yzerman, the latter a guy who had to learn how to lead versus the guy who naturally leads. That's just me. Yzerman would talk to you in the locker room; Doan might bite you!

Rorschach is online now  
Old
06-28-2012, 03:20 PM
  #54
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 31,568
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Dude. It's Shane Doan. Not Steve Yzerman we are talking about.

This was the first time in his sixteen seasons he made it out of the first round. I'm not saying it's all his fault, but lets not put him on a pedestal here.
I think you're underselling what Doan brings to a hockey team. He's not slow footed like Ryan Smyth or Andrew Brunette or Jason Arnott. He's considerably more physical than those players. He is in excellent physical shape and is very durable. While he's not going to set the world on fire with his offensive numbers, he's always good for 20+ goals and 50+ points.

There have been no warning signs that show he is slowing down and throughout his career he's been a clutch playoff performer. He's like a modern day Brendan Shanahan or Gary Roberts in terms of him being one of the better conditioned athletes even in his mid-late 30s. It is insulting to compare him with Ryan Smyth.

Ziggy Stardust is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 03:28 PM
  #55
Herby
Culture Changer
 
Herby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 15,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I think you're underselling what Doan brings to a hockey team. He's not slow footed like Ryan Smyth or Andrew Brunette or Jason Arnott. He's considerably more physical than those players. He is in excellent physical shape and is very durable. While he's not going to set the world on fire with his offensive numbers, he's always good for 20+ goals and 50+ points.

There have been no warning signs that show he is slowing down and throughout his career he's been a clutch playoff performer. He's like a modern day Brendan Shanahan or Gary Roberts in terms of him being one of the better conditioned athletes even in his mid-late 30s. It is insulting to compare him with Ryan Smyth.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the value of signing players in their late 30's to big money deals. I gave some examples of guys who fizzled, you gave some examples of guys who worked out. So there is obviously some risk and reward involved. I just don't see the need to take the risk of messing with the roster right after winning a championship.

And as for Ryan Smyth. The same things were said about him when he got here that you said about Doan. That he was a warrior, a positive locker room influnece, a playoff glue guy, a pros pro, yada yada yada. All he did was fizzle out every January and then leave as a disgraced, greedy liar.

I wouldn't compare them because I don't consider Doan a greedy liar looking out for nothing more than his next contract like Smyth. And Doan is a good two way player while Smyth made Pavel Bure look like Guy Carboneau. Doan is clearly better than Smyth. That being said, it's still too risky for my liking to pay the likely market price for Shane Doan in his late 30's

Herby is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 04:09 PM
  #56
Duc620
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 931
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
.....I know we want to see them bring the Cup winning team back, which is exactly what the Kings will be doing, but adding a fresh new face to this strong core could add another dimension that this team could use. A player like Doan could inject that extra incentive for them to win another Cup, and this is a team that is fully capable of becoming the first team since Detroit to accomplish that.
Doan, "fresh new face?", doesn't have another dimension we need, imho.

Duc620 is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 04:13 PM
  #57
Duc620
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 931
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
... And on a personal level I'd be more afraid of Doan than Yzerman, the latter a guy who had to learn how to lead versus the guy who naturally leads. That's just me. Yzerman would talk to you in the locker room; Doan might bite you!
The Hall of Fame has a different view of your ranking for these two players.

Duc620 is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 04:30 PM
  #58
Rorschach
Fearful Symmetry
 
Rorschach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 6,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
The Hall of Fame has a different view of your ranking for these two players.
Talk about totally missing the point...

I don't think Yzerman was inducted for his meanness...and comparing a guy for his HOF credential versus a guy still playing is apples and oranges. I mean, what point are you even arguing?

No one said that Doan is a better player than Yzerman, I said that I would be more scared of disappointing a Cupless Doan than I would be of disappointing Yzerman, who has multiple Cups, in a playoff run in 2013.

Rorschach is online now  
Old
06-28-2012, 04:45 PM
  #59
Sydor25
LA Kings
 
Sydor25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: North Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 21,832
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Sydor25
Has this been the best 12 months in the history of the LA Kings? Traded for Richards (signed long term), dumped Smyth, signed Doughty long term, fired Murray, signed Quick long term, traded for Carter (signed long term), let Kompon go and won the Stanley Cup.






Sydor25 is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 05:02 PM
  #60
Quattro
Registered User
 
Quattro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 4,253
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I think Richardson is a King in name only. He simply doesnt put out the consistent effort a real LA King does.
That's WAY out of line. Richardson has been an important (if minor) cog on this team for several years. At one time or another he has played nearly every forward position from 1st line center to 4th line wing. He is exactly the kind of role player that every good team needs.

Contrary to your statement, I think he always gives maximum effort whenever he is called on. In addition, he is by all indications a great teammate and popular in the room. To say he's not a real LA King is pretty damn insulting.

Quattro is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 05:07 PM
  #61
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 5,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
That's WAY out of line. Richardson has been an important (if minor) cog on this team for several years. At one time or another he has played nearly every forward position from 1st line center to 4th line wing. He is exactly the kind of role player that every good team needs.

Contrary to your statement, I think he always gives maximum effort whenever he is called on. In addition, he is by all indications a great teammate and popular in the room. To say he's not a real LA King is pretty damn insulting.
He's essentially a utility player. And people shouldn't expect that much out of him. Yet he gets a ton of hate. I think he does admirable given his role. Very admirable.

Jason Lewis is online now  
Old
06-28-2012, 05:46 PM
  #62
Rorschach
Fearful Symmetry
 
Rorschach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 6,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
That's WAY out of line. Richardson has been an important (if minor) cog on this team for several years. At one time or another he has played nearly every forward position from 1st line center to 4th line wing. He is exactly the kind of role player that every good team needs.

Contrary to your statement, I think he always gives maximum effort whenever he is called on. In addition, he is by all indications a great teammate and popular in the room. To say he's not a real LA King is pretty damn insulting.
Bias aside, and that is a LOT of bias, tell me why then he is a healthy scratch so often? And scratched in favor of other 3rd and 4th line rookie players like Nolan, King and Clifford? He has seniority on this team over all those guys. He has seniority over Colin Fraser both on the Kings and in the NHL. But Colin is a celebrated signing and he is considered THE 4th line center over Richardson who is a center. Trevor Lewis is a guy with a lot of the same tools and problems as Richardson and plays the same position too and yet the coaching staff finds a line and a spot for him to play on. And Lewis scored a few key goals while Richardson scored 0 this run. [Edit: Richardson did score one from Doughty, Game 5, Series 1] Then he gets pulled again and replaced by a recovering Gagne, who arguably was still getting in to game shape. If they just wanted Gagne on the Cup, you play him one game. Instead Sutter went with Gagne early into the series, guaranteeing Gagne, and not Richardson, would play the majority of games in the series. Ask yourself why...


Don't let the Cup win skew your idea of this player. If Clifford didn't get hit in the head, Richardson is no better than Drewiske...an alternate who plays zero games. His role is an effort-based energy role yet half a dozen younger players earned spots and pushed him out due to his I consistent effort, despite his seniority, speed and experience. When I say he is only a King in name to me, that's my observation of his place in the organization as set by the coaching staff. He may be the first guy included with Bernier in a deal, to make room for a Black Ace or another prospect in the pipeline. To the organization, he is expendable.


Last edited by Rorschach: 06-28-2012 at 11:08 PM. Reason: Richardson did score one from Doughty
Rorschach is online now  
Old
06-28-2012, 07:12 PM
  #63
TonySCV
Moderator
Two Timer!
 
TonySCV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 12,997
vCash: 500
I'll say this, Parise is THE definition of a Dean Lombardi guy.

Dean's got contracts expiring in 2019, 2020, 2022 and 2023. The 2021 slot is available. If Parise wants to play in LA, Dean will get it done. That's the bottom line.

TonySCV is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 07:15 PM
  #64
Sydor25
LA Kings
 
Sydor25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: North Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 21,832
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Sydor25
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
I'll say this, Parise is THE definition of a Dean Lombardi guy.

Dean's got contracts expiring in 2019, 2020, 2022 and 2023. The 2021 slot is available. If Parise wants to play in LA, Dean will get it done. That's the bottom line.
This I can agree with, but that is a huge "if".

Sydor25 is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 07:18 PM
  #65
bobafettish*
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,961
vCash: 500
kings can resign penner and still go after parise/suter

feels good man.

bobafettish* is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 07:21 PM
  #66
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 31,568
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
kings can resign penner and still go after parise/suter

feels good man.
If that is the case, they are creating a crowded bunch on offense and would have to move some bodies or demote some players.

Ziggy Stardust is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 07:27 PM
  #67
tsanuri
Registered User
 
tsanuri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Grants Pass OR
Country: United States
Posts: 2,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
If that is the case, they are creating a crowded bunch on offense and would have to move some bodies or demote some players.
Or just wait for the glass cannon, gagne, to get injured. It is bad to say but it is not if it is when with him. And if it happens to be another concussion he is done. And it would be nice to have a top 6 guy ready for when it happens and not have to make a move at the time. Question comes who is the right top 6 LW to get?

tsanuri is online now  
Old
06-28-2012, 07:35 PM
  #68
Duc620
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 931
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Talk about totally missing the point...

I don't think Yzerman was inducted for his meanness...and comparing a guy for his HOF credential versus a guy still playing is apples and oranges. I mean, what point are you even arguing?

No one said that Doan is a better player than Yzerman, I said that I would be more scared of disappointing a Cupless Doan than I would be of disappointing Yzerman, who has multiple Cups, in a playoff run in 2013.
Fair enough... I did get your point, tho. I actually disagree with the whole idea that Doan is a more "natural" leader than Yzerman.

I mean, fear, meaness, and laser eye stares aside, everybody has things to learn while becoming a leader. Doan's behavior in the playoff series (not just the handshake deal) just didn't sit well with me.

Duc620 is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 09:09 PM
  #69
Sydor25
LA Kings
 
Sydor25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: North Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 21,832
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Sydor25
Schneider just signed for $4 million per for 3 years. Seems a little high.

Luongo to Florida will get done some day.

Bernier to Toronto?

Sydor25 is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 09:15 PM
  #70
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Schneider just signed for $4 million per for 3 years. Seems a little high.

Luongo to Florida will get done some day.

Bernier to Toronto?
But Fla won't take Luo, they have Markstrom and Mason.............

Luongo in Fla would be a nifty fit depending on the return.

etherialone is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 10:48 PM
  #71
lumbergh
Registered User
 
lumbergh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Richmond, VA
Country: Taiwan
Posts: 1,664
vCash: 500
Kings have $48.7 million committed to 12 players in 2013-4. If the cap stays at $70 million or even goes down, Lombardi is going to have a tough time putting a roster together with good depth.

I think the best thing is for Lombardi to take a shot at signing Parise for 1 year. Otherwise, bring Penner back for a year.

lumbergh is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 10:54 PM
  #72
Sydor25
LA Kings
 
Sydor25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: North Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 21,832
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Sydor25
Quote:
Originally Posted by lumbergh View Post
Kings have $48.7 million committed to 12 players in 2013-4. If the cap stays at $70 million or even goes down, Lombardi is going to have a tough time putting a roster together with good depth.

I think the best thing is for Lombardi to take a shot at signing Parise for 1 year. Otherwise, bring Penner back for a year.
I don't think Lombardi will have any trouble filling out the roster for 2013-14. Scuderi is the only significant UFA that he would think about re-signing. Gagne will not be re-signed and all of the other players will be RFAs and none of them are going to getting a Doughty second contract. They will all sign for a modest raise.

King will get a minor raise this season. Voynov, Clifford, Martinez, Nolan and Lewis are the RFAs next year.

Lombardi and Solomon have been the masters of the cap system. They have their contracts lined up so that there aren't too many significant UFAs each season. Each of the major positions are locked up long term to nice contracts without any NTC/NMC attached. I can't think of any unmovable contract on the Kings right now.

Sydor25 is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 10:57 PM
  #73
Quattro
Registered User
 
Quattro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 4,253
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Bias aside, and that is a LOT of bias, tell me why then he is a healthy scratch so often? And scratched in favor of other 3rd and 4th line rookie players like Nolan, King and Clifford? He has seniority on this team over all those guys. He has seniority over Colin Fraser both on the Kings and in the NHL. But Colin is a celebrated signing and he is considered THE 4th line center over Richardson who is a center. Trevor Lewis is a guy with a lot of the same tools and problems as Richardson and plays the same position too and yet the coaching staff finds a line and a spot for him to play on. And Lewis scored a few key goals while Richardson scored 0 this run. Then he gets pulled again and replaced by a recovering Gagne, who arguably was still getting in to game shape. If they just wanted Gagne on the Cup, you play him one game. Instead Sutter went with Gagne early into the series, guaranteeing Gagne, and not Richardson, would play the majority of games in the series. Ask yourself why...


Don't let the Cup win skew your idea of this player. If Clifford didn't get hit in the head, Richardson is no better than Drewiske...an alternate who plays zero games. His role is an effort-based energy role yet half a dozen younger players earned spots and pushed him out due to his I consistent effort, despite his seniority, speed and experience. When I say he is only a King in name to me, that's my observation of his place in the organization as set by the coaching staff. He may be the first guy included with Bernier in a deal, to make room for a Black Ace or another prospect in the pipeline. To the organization, he is expendable.
I never said he was indispensible or better than all the guys you referenced. What I was doing was giving him the proper respect (same as well with Drewiske) for his minor role in the Kings success.
Your description of him as not a real King is insulting and disrepectful. If you said that to any of his teammates, they'd flatten you.

Quattro is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 11:02 PM
  #74
Chazz Reinhold
Registered User
 
Chazz Reinhold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Stanley Cup
Country: United States
Posts: 6,940
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lumbergh View Post
Kings have $48.7 million committed to 12 players in 2013-4. If the cap stays at $70 million or even goes down, Lombardi is going to have a tough time putting a roster together with good depth.

I think the best thing is for Lombardi to take a shot at signing Parise for 1 year. Otherwise, bring Penner back for a year.
Clifford, Lewis, Nolan, Voynov, and Martinez will all be restricted free agents after this upcoming season. I can't see those 5 having a combined cap hit of more than $7-9 million, and $9 million is on the high side. That puts them up to 17, plus at least of couple of the the group of players like Andreoff, Vey, Toffoli, Kozun, Muzzin, Deslauriers, etc. on their ELCs will be ready to step in by that point.

Dean seems to have planned this out pretty well. Obviously the impending CBA negotiations can change things, but I have a hard time seeing the result being a lowered cap with players' salaries/cap hits staying the same.

Chazz Reinhold is offline  
Old
06-28-2012, 11:22 PM
  #75
tsanuri
Registered User
 
tsanuri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Grants Pass OR
Country: United States
Posts: 2,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lumbergh View Post
Kings have $48.7 million committed to 12 players in 2013-4. If the cap stays at $70 million or even goes down, Lombardi is going to have a tough time putting a roster together with good depth.

I think the best thing is for Lombardi to take a shot at signing Parise for 1 year. Otherwise, bring Penner back for a year.
Even if the cap goes down. Lets give the owners everything and make it 50%, which I don't think they will get this time around. That would make the cap for next year almost the same as it was for this year at 64.17 vs 64.3. Now if the cap does go down there has to be an adjustment someplace and I doubt the players would give money back again so I suspect that the amount of any signed contract would hit at whatever percent it went down. So when we take in the rate the league is growing moving the share down to 50% is really only taking one year off the table before things go back to where they are now. And since there are no "superstars" coming off the books next year I would say we are in very good shape even with a reduction and taking a run at Parise.

But I would say it will at or above the 70 mil by some but with adjustments made to current contracts it will be closer to 72. So say we manage to get Parise and at a 6.5 hit, I can dream can't I. We would have 17 mil to sign 10 players. Add in Penner at say 3.25. We are now down to 9 players and 13.75 mil. Even with a raise to Voynov, Nolan, Clifford and Lewis. Lets go big and give them an adverage of 1mil each, which will not happen. That leaves us 9.75 mil to sign 5 players. And we are not talking big names. Most of these spots could and should be filled with those out of Manchester. We might want to pick up someone to replace Scuds if he were to leave but if we could get him at say 2.5mil that now leaves us 7.25mil and 4 players.

I see us in very, very good shape. I think most if not all GMs would love to be in Dean's position right now.

tsanuri is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:32 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.