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Advanced stats say Sabres should consider dealing Ennis

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Old
06-28-2012, 01:51 PM
  #51
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There are 2 camps:

1. Don't trade him at any cost for any reason

2. Only trade him IF the return is a top line player...do not trade Ennis for pennies on the dollar.

I don't think the second position is unreasonable at all. He's an asset to be moved only if the opportunity is right. You don't trade him for Steve Ott....and anyone who would should be shot...but I don't think anyone actually would.

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06-28-2012, 01:53 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
What would you target in a trade for Ennis? You would have to go for an impact center, right?

Would Stastny be worth it? In Stastny, you're looking at a mildly more accomplished scorer, bigger body, but probably much closer to his ceiling. Would you take Stastny plus a good prospect for Ennis plus a low pick?

I like the analysis given here, and I think it's important to remember Ennis' size and relatively small sample size at center. If his value is high right now, you have to consider your options. Trading low never benefited anybody.
I'm not enamored with Stastny, so probably not...especially given our sudden infusion of centers to the pipeline.

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06-28-2012, 01:55 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
There are 2 camps:

1. Don't trade him at any cost for any reason

2. Only trade him IF the return is a top line player...do not trade Ennis for pennies on the dollar.

I don't think the second position is unreasonable at all. He's an asset to be moved only if the opportunity is right. You don't trade him for Steve Ott....and anyone who would should be shot...but I don't think anyone actually would.
There is also the "in a package for Bobby Ryan". Bobby Ryan should be in a package for Ennis.

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06-28-2012, 01:58 PM
  #54
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Foligno might have had a ~26% shooting percentage, but thats because he was scoring off tip ins and on relatively open nets because ENNIS WAS SETTING HIM UP. I dont understand why we would want to trade a player that makes the players around him better.

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06-28-2012, 01:59 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Bobby Ryan should be in a package for Ennis.
You may only consider trading Ennis for Ryan+ but that does not mean his value should objectively be that. That's homerism at this point and I am someone who does not want to trade Ennis for Bobby Ryan.

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06-28-2012, 02:01 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkimLom View Post
Whatever happened to just watching a game and having an opinion off that, instead of looking at numbers?

To this day, I thought Hecht was our best defensive forward for a long time. I did this by watching the game, not by looking at numbers and thinking "oh, Ruff puts Hecht out there on 60% of his shifts in the defensive zone, so that must mean he's our best defensive forward".

But I guess that's what message boards are for huh? To express your opinion and try to shout louder than the others until the other person walks away.
Oh, I still look at guys and have an opinion based off what I see. It isn't malice towards him (or Hecht) but more a support of the impression of what it is that I'm seeing. I personally enjoy Ennis, love his dynamic abilities and his zest for scoring. He's fun to watch and ultimately, that's what pro sports is about for me -- is it fun to watch (and therefore spend my money on to watch). I personally like that they have two youngsters with complimentary skill sets in he and Hodgson -- they are different and unique and each brings something to the dance. Much like Drury-Briere, there isn't really a need in my mind to have one better than the other as both fill roles that need filling. Color me excited for the future with the under 22 set of players they've assembled so far.

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06-28-2012, 02:02 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
There is also the "in a package for Bobby Ryan". Bobby Ryan should be in a package for Ennis.
I really don't see where you get your logic from. You are talking about Bobby Ryan, who is a legit 30 plus goal scorer year in and year out. Then, you are talking Tyler Ennis, who had a brief streak of looking like a very good player.

You give me one or the other and I am taking Ryan every day of the week. That, to me, means you have to add to Ennis to get Ryan. And that is no slam to Tyler Ennis, who I hope we can keep if a trade for a Ryan type player is made.

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06-28-2012, 02:03 PM
  #58
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True that his value is high now, but what if it goes the other way and Ennis breaks out this year and continues to play and produce like he did or even better than when he came back last year...I'm just saying that there is still even untapped potential we could be giving up

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06-28-2012, 02:03 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Living Beast View Post
Foligno might have had a ~26% shooting percentage, but thats because he was scoring off tip ins and on relatively open nets because ENNIS WAS SETTING HIM UP. I dont understand why we would want to trade a player that makes the players around him better.
Nobody wants to trade him, we just realize that if we have to put him in a deal for a top talent, it shouldn't be the dealbreaker (assuming the rest of the deal is fair of course).

Nobody will be like "why the **** is he still on our roster" if he's still here in October. Nobody will even be the slightest bit disappointed if he's still on the roster here...in fact we'll be happy.

The ONLY reason you trade him is if you can get a player that will have an even better impact on the team. Many of us (myself included) think Ryan can be that guy. Would we like to get Ryan without having to give up Ennis? Absolutely. If Ennis though is what it would take, we're not going to hang up the phone though.

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06-28-2012, 02:08 PM
  #60
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There's a lot of "I don't understand these stats, so I'm just going to completely disregard them" going on in here. Several of you would have been great baseball GM's 10-15 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito_81 View Post
Gotta love these off-season articles.

Trade everyone!!!!!
That's not what the article is saying. The article is suggesting that his value may be inflated because of numbers he likely won't be able to replicate next season--particularly his personal shooting%, Foligno's shooting% that helped increase Ennis' numbers, and Ennis' on-ice shooting%--which could thereby lower his value. Plus, a point he didn't make is that players are at their peak value when they make less money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
I just don't like how the writer tries to suggest that Foligno was the reason for his success.

What? Ennis scores points against weaker competition...trade him! Why would we want a center that can capitalize when the other team's top defenders aren't out
He didn't. He noted a correlation, which is factually correct. You read it as causation. That's your issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
There are 2 camps:

1. Don't trade him at any cost for any reason

2. Only trade him IF the return is a top line player...do not trade Ennis for pennies on the dollar.

I don't think the second position is unreasonable at all. He's an asset to be moved only if the opportunity is right. You don't trade him for Steve Ott....and anyone who would should be shot...but I don't think anyone actually would.
The funny thing is that Coller is suggesting that the notion of trading him while his value is high should be considered. The key word here is "considered." But according to the WGR poll, 51% of voters wouldn't even consider trading him.

How alarming is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
There is also the "in a package for Bobby Ryan". Bobby Ryan should be in a package for Ennis.
Based on what. Flesh out for us why Tyler Ennis has more value than Bobby Ryan?

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06-28-2012, 02:09 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Living Beast View Post
Foligno might have had a ~26% shooting percentage, but thats because he was scoring off tip ins and on relatively open nets because ENNIS WAS SETTING HIM UP. I dont understand why we would want to trade a player that makes the players around him better.
Gee, you're not overstating anything. Every single goal was a tap-in thanks to Tyler Ennis, huh?

Ennis must be better than Crosby, Malkin, and all the best centers in the league who can't get their wingers to shoot at 26%.

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06-28-2012, 02:10 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
You only say this because Vanek was hot at the beginning of the year and Ennis was hot at the end of the year. Vanek's hot streak was far more impressive because it was against top competition every shift, nevermind that he was centered by Luke Adam.

Pominville was consistent from start to finish and, yes, should be considered a better offensive player than Ennis because he is more reliable and performs against top competition consistently. I do think Ennis will shortly prove himself a better offensive player than Pominville but he's not there yet.

Vanek is underrated here.
I respect what Vanek and Pominville can do. I realize Vanek was injured for the majority of the season. I don't think Ennis is far better than Vanek, but his ability to create offense is second to none on the team. This is why I regard him as the best offensive player on the team.

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06-28-2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
I really don't see where you get your logic from. You are talking about Bobby Ryan, who is a legit 30 plus goal scorer year in and year out. Then, you are talking Tyler Ennis, who had a brief streak of looking like a very good player.

You give me one or the other and I am taking Ryan every day of the week. That, to me, means you have to add to Ennis to get Ryan. And that is no slam to Tyler Ennis, who I hope we can keep if a trade for a Ryan type player is made.
Ennis is younger, cheaper and had a higher ppg this season, which means he's had a higher ppg every season except for his rookie season. He plays a more critical position. He makes his teammates better. Do you think Ryan is scoring 30 goals per year with Roy or Connolly as his center? No. He plays with Getzlaf, who like Ennis, makes everyone better.

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06-28-2012, 02:12 PM
  #64
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Forget the stats. We all watched ennis play last season. He was playing the best hockey of his young career towards the end. Who knows how he'll play next season? It's impossible to judge.

All I know is I love his attitude, determination, and potential. I don't want to give that up unless its for a solid upgrade. Bobby Ryan is one player I could understand trading Ennis for.

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06-28-2012, 02:12 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
You don't think all those statistics come up in NHL front offices, and at the negotiating tables across the country on Sunday.

They watch the games too... But backing up personal observations with statistical evidence supporting observations is far more valuable than just liking the way a guy looks on the ice.
Sure, I'm not discounting using the stats, I'm saying stop using these numbers soley to back up your opinion which poster here do.

I don't think these numbers are used as much as people on these boards use them

My opinion, these numbers mean nothing to me.

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06-28-2012, 02:15 PM
  #66
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51% of people who voted in the WGR poll wouldn't even consider trading Ennis. Over half of those voters think Tyler Ennis is untouchable.

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06-28-2012, 02:17 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Ennis is younger, cheaper and had a higher ppg this season, which means he's had a higher ppg every season except for his rookie season. He plays a more critical position. He makes his teammates better. Do you think Ryan is scoring 30 goals per year with Roy or Connolly as his center? No. He plays with Getzlaf, who like Ennis, makes everyone better.
So Ryan is completely and utterly dependent upon Getzlaf, but Ennis in no way benefited from his own linemates, right? That's an absurd and untenable position.

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06-28-2012, 02:17 PM
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The great thing about the Sabre set-up is, he doesn't have to be the #1 C. Even if he becomes it, that means Hodgson gets to feast, or Roy, or Grigorenko etc.

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06-28-2012, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
So Ryan is completely and utterly dependent upon Getzlaf, but Ennis in no way benefited from his own linemates, right? That's an absurd and untenable position.
Who is better, Perry and Getzlaf or Foligno and Stafford?

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06-28-2012, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Ennis is younger, cheaper and had a higher ppg this season, which means he's had a higher ppg every season except for his rookie season. He plays a more critical position. He makes his teammates better. Do you think Ryan is scoring 30 goals per year with Roy or Connolly as his center? No. He plays with Getzlaf, who like Ennis, makes everyone better.
Who cares who Ryan plays with? The guy was a #2 overall pick for a good reason and has lived up to his billing. I'm quite sure that Getzlaf has benefited just a tad for playing with Ryan as well.

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06-28-2012, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Who is better, Perry and Getzlaf or Foligno and Stafford?
Who has played against top pairing defensemen and defensive forwards night in and night out?

We can play this game all day long.

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06-28-2012, 02:25 PM
  #72
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Ryan doesn't play that often with Getzlaf and Perry, at least from what I've heard from Ducks fans. That said, he is not a person who can produce offense from nothing like Ennis can. He can shoot the puck and he's big and more physical, but he doesn't have the sort of dynamic ability that Ennis has.

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06-28-2012, 02:27 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkimLom View Post
Sure, I'm not discounting using the stats, I'm saying stop using these numbers soley to back up your opinion which poster here do.

I don't think these numbers are used as much as people on these boards use them

My opinion, these numbers mean nothing to me.

You're actually arguing that we should stop using stats to make points and go on what we see?


So what game can we watch to get an understanding of a players career and how they're used? Oh wait thats too much info.

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06-28-2012, 02:29 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Who is better, Perry and Getzlaf or Foligno and Stafford?
As was pointed out, who plays 1st pairing competition and who plays 2nd/3rd pairing competition? You're trying to distract from your ridiculous proposition that Ennis didn't benefit from his linemates, but, rather, only made them better--and not vice versa--while Ryan was made who he is by Perry/Getzlaf, and Ryan in no way made them better players. Absurd.

And I do think Ryan would score 30 in Buffalo, even with the dreaded Derek Roy as his center. Roy sure stopped Vanek from scoring 30+ all those years, didn't he?

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06-28-2012, 02:30 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishire View Post
Ryan doesn't play that often with Getzlaf and Perry, at least from what I've heard from Ducks fans. That said, he is not a person who can produce offense from nothing like Ennis can. He can shoot the puck and he's big and more physical, but he doesn't have the sort of dynamic ability that Ennis has.
He's played about 50% of his 5 on 5 shifts with Getzlaf over the last 4 years. I used one of those evil advanced stats sites for the info.

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