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Old
07-01-2012, 09:40 AM
  #1
rumman
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Your Junk for our Junk?

So, how do the Leafs rid themselves of overpaid/underachieving players? Thought it might be fun to hear ideas to give these players a second chance at making a difference on a different team. Any ideas on reclamation projects that could benefit both teams?

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07-01-2012, 09:44 AM
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AHL - Orr
Buyouts - Army
Trades - Leafs need to take a defective player back (i.e Lombardi).
We haven't tried sending any player to Europe.

Why keep doing this - the team needs to compete at somepoint.

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07-01-2012, 10:06 AM
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Mess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
AHL - Orr
Buyouts - Army
Trades - Leafs need to take a defective player back (i.e Lombardi).
We haven't tried sending any player to Europe.

Why keep doing this - the team needs to compete at somepoint.
I think this is more about who can we send some our players out for and get back in return.

Sending Komisarek out might be more likely in what we take back. Other teams also have players that don't fit their situations.

I think that time has passed because some RFAs (young players) were not given qualifying offers, but say Mike Komisarek for a unqualified Cam Barker in Edmonton making him a UFA now. At that stage Leafs could have qualified Barker or simply let him walk.

Was there a Leaf that could have landed a Peter Mueller, Guillaume Latendresse or Cam Barker set a drift because his current contract was too high for his present team and weren't qualified ?

My example would have been Clarke MacArthur to Colorado for Peter Mueller rights and then Leafs qualify him (qualifying offer @ $2 mil his current salary) making him a RFA now and Leafs property, and then they have exclusive rights to negotiate a new contract extension. The benefit of shipping out a signed Leaf opens a roster spot and MacArthur ($3.2 mil X 2) >> Mueller ($ 2 mil QO).

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07-01-2012, 10:06 AM
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Komisarek is poised to have a much more successful year due to the significant systemic changes which will occur as a result of Carlyle taking over. He was clearly an asset not suited for a Wilson system of mobile, run and gun play. Carlyle's system offers Komi a structure that will play to his strengths and not his weaknesses, which is pretty vital considering the pretty large gap between the two. Komi is incredibly effective when his strengths are played to and his weaknesses minimized, the issue comes when his weaknesses are played to and not made irrelevant through usage of the asset. cuz he's pretty horrid in his weak areas.

Lombardi is poised to have a bounce back year considering the circumstances that compromised his effectiveness going forwards last year. He's a proven commodity and there's nothing to suggest that he won't continue to do what he's done for the majority of his career. He also has one year left on his contract, as does Connolly, which makes trading them away for new problems a rather fruitless and pointless idea.


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07-01-2012, 10:09 AM
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My example would be Clarke MacArthur to Colorado for Peter Mueller rights and then Leafs qualify him (qualifying offer) making him a RFA now and Leafs property, and they have exclusive rights to negotiate a new contract extension.
I would think that Clarke MacArthur is worth considerably more than an injury riddled prospect that isn't even deemed worth enough to be given a qualifying offer by Colorado, which is a team that has a very good recent history at judging the talent of young players. When Clarke was on contract for the affordable cap hit going into the trade deadline Burke had the option to deal him for a first (albeit a late first) and a fairly good prospect. He can extract more value from MacArthur than Peter Mueller. The Leafs could just wait an hour and sign Mueller without giving away a significant asset.

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07-01-2012, 10:10 AM
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I can't help but think there are teams that players like Connelly/Lombardi/Komi could help, and players struggling on other teams that could possibly help the Leafs. Sometimes a change of scenery is all it takes. I'm just trying to hear other's opinions of IF deals like this exist?

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07-01-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by FrontalLombardomy View Post
I would think that Clarke MacArthur is worth considerably more than an injury riddled prospect that isn't even deemed worth enough to be given a qualifying offer by Colorado, which is a team that has a very good recent history at judging the talent of young players. When Clarke was on contract for the affordable cap hit going into the trade deadline Burke had the option to deal him for a first (albeit a late first) and a fairly good prospect. He can extract more value from MacArthur than Peter Mueller. The Leafs could just wait an hour and sign Mueller without giving away a significant asset.
Signing Mueller for free of assets is not always better than actually make a trade as a trade removes a contract (only allowed a limited amount per team 50, and NHL roster spots 23), and frees up cap space to sign a different player.

If your team has Kessel, Lupul, JVR and Kulemin as your potential top 4 wingers and youth like Kadri and Frattin able to fill 3rd line spots then where does MacArthur fit with a $3.2 mil cap hit? Particularly when you already have players like Lombardi ($3.5 mil) hanging around.

So MacArthur out at $3.2 mil X 2 to re-sign Mueller at $2 mil X 2 actually lowers the teams cap hit because it $3.2 mil - $2.0 mil = -$1.2 mil Cap hit.

Cap Space is valuable asset in a Cap World, and Leafs got MacArthur for free as a UFA previously when Atlanta walked away from his arbitrators ruling, not much different than Colorado walking away from Mueller at $2 mil and letting him go to someone else for free.

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07-01-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rumman View Post
So, how do the Leafs rid themselves of overpaid/underachieving players? Thought it might be fun to hear ideas to give these players a second chance at making a difference on a different team. Any ideas on reclamation projects that could benefit both teams?
I think the first thing to do is to clarify that a team doesn't need to send a reclamation project in order to take one on.

Secondly, the club (Toronto in this case) needs to evaluate a role for the player in the event they can't be moved. Komisarek for example, seemed to play better, when he played in a reduced role. I don't think Connolly is done either. Given what they are, there is a role to be had if a trade isn't. Finding that unemotional middle is tough for players, coaches and fans alike.

Reclamation projects...I've wanted Toronto to kick tires on Dave Bolland for a while. I don't think the guy is a third line center. I think it's obvious that he's behind some special talent. He seems like a much much easier grab then say Stall ever was. I don't think any of the players mentioned would get a look at him, but I'm sure there's a solution.

I think Dan Ellis fits the description as well. And he's just a signature away.

Amongst others...

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07-01-2012, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Signing Mueller for free of assets is not always better than actually make a trade as a trade removes a contract (only allowed a limited amount per team 50, and NHL roster spots 23), and frees up cap space to sign a different player.

If your team has Kessel, Lupul, JVR and Kulemin as your potential top 4 wingers and youth like Kadri and Frattin able to fill 3rd line spots then where does MacArthur fit with a $3.2 mil cap hit? Particularly when you already have players like Lombardi ($3.5 mil) hanging around.

So MacArthur out at $3.2 mil X 2 to re-sign Mueller at $2 mil X 2 actually lowers the teams cap hit because it $3.2 mil - $2.0 mil = -$1.2 mil Cap hit.
MacArthur's value is worth more than damaged goods in Mueller and 1.2 in cap space as far as I'm concerned, and the value he's been able to fetch (although not capitalized on) helps assert my case. Your same rationale against MacArthur works against Mueller, the difference is MacArthur is worth considerably more than Mueller at this point in time all things considered.

We'd be far better off to try and deal MacArthur to address areas of need rather than replacing him with a riskier player that would serve a similar role but with considerable more risk and being worth a lot less on the market.

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07-01-2012, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by FrontalLombardomy View Post
MacArthur's value is worth more than damaged goods in Mueller and 1.2 in cap space as far as I'm concerned, and the value he's been able to fetch (although not capitalized on) helps assert my case. Your same rationale against MacArthur works against Mueller, the difference is MacArthur is worth considerably more than Mueller at this point in time all things considered.

We'd be far better off to try and deal MacArthur to address areas of need rather than replacing him with a riskier player that would serve a similar role but with considerable more risk and being worth a lot less on the market.
Peter Mueller is a 6'3" center that was a 1st round pick in 2006 #8 overall, (3 spots after Phil Kessel), and is only 24.

Mueller & Kessel have played together on US National Development team, and together on the U-18 and U-20 (WJC) as teammates and linemates. So we have a previous chemistry here.

I'd argue this is well worth the gamble and an area of need. MacArthur is now a spare part and as a 3rd liner at best will not put up the production, and easily replaceable in that role by a cheaper ELC like Kadri or Frattin internally.

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07-01-2012, 10:35 AM
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I agree that Komi and Lombardi COULD turn their game around this season, but have zero faith that Connelly can. Regardless I'd have no problem trading all 3. I'm surprised Army couldn't of been traded for anything!

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07-01-2012, 10:35 AM
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Peter Mueller is a 6'3" center that was a 1st round pick in 2006 #8 overall, (3 spots after Phil Kessel), and is only 24.

Mueller & Kessel have played together on US National Development team, and together on the U-18 and U-20 (WJC) as teammates and linemates. So we have a previous chemistry here.

I'd argue this is well worth the gamble and an area of need. MacArthur is now a spare part and as a 3rd liner at best will not put up the production, and easily replaceable in that role by a cheaper ELC like Kadri or Frattin internally.
The only problem with Mueller is his injury problems.. If he can fix them, it's a win-win.. And if he doesn't, you sign him to a short-term deal and you let him go at the end of the year or two.. And he's on LTIR. This is where the Leafs need to take advantage of their money, and take some chances..

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07-01-2012, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rumman View Post
I agree that Komi and Lombardi COULD turn their game around this season, but have zero faith that Connelly can. Regardless I'd have no problem trading all 3. I'm surprised Army couldn't of been traded for anything!
Not sure why you think Connolly isn't capable of turning his game around? He was a consistent point producer in Buffalo..

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07-01-2012, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
AHL - Orr
Buyouts - Army
Trades - Leafs need to take a defective player back (i.e Lombardi).
We haven't tried sending any player to Europe.

Why keep doing this - the team needs to compete at somepoint.
looks like we are going to give other peoples junk more money gain this year
crappy free agents for millions over value .......gawdddd im tired of burke

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07-01-2012, 10:41 AM
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Signing Mueller for free of assets is not always better than actually make a trade as a trade removes a contract (only allowed a limited amount per team 50, and NHL roster spots 23), and frees up cap space to sign a different player.

If your team has Kessel, Lupul, JVR and Kulemin as your potential top 4 wingers and youth like Kadri and Frattin able to fill 3rd line spots then where does MacArthur fit with a $3.2 mil cap hit? Particularly when you already have players like Lombardi ($3.5 mil) hanging around.

So MacArthur out at $3.2 mil X 2 to re-sign Mueller at $2 mil X 2 actually lowers the teams cap hit because it $3.2 mil - $2.0 mil = -$1.2 mil Cap hit.

Cap Space is valuable asset in a Cap World, and Leafs got MacArthur for free as a UFA previously when Atlanta walked away from his arbitrators ruling, not much different than Colorado walking away from Mueller at $2 mil and letting him go to someone else for free.
This is a foolish suggestion since Mac's worth a pick. Why give away a tradeable asset for a free one? It doesn't make any sense, if you want Mueller you sign him for free then trade Mac for the best pick you can get. This way you don't get a contract in return, but you still gain assets.

Mueller was drafted as a center, but he's rarely played there in the NHL. Both Colorado and Phoenix have used him on the wing more than they have down the middle.

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07-01-2012, 10:42 AM
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Not sure why you think Connolly isn't capable of turning his game around? He was a consistent point producer in Buffalo..
I think he's injury prone, too small, and from what I saw last year indifferent to competing each game. No doubt he has skill, and has proven this in the past, but not recently, Buffalo fans were happy to see him gone, and I now realize why. Maybe if he was sandwiched between two monster wingers with a nasty disposition he would thrive, but the Leafs don't have such wingers so, no I have zero faith that he can turn his game around in Toronto.

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07-01-2012, 10:44 AM
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I think he's injury prone, too small, and from what I saw last year indifferent to competing each game. No doubt he has skill, and has proven this in the past, but not recently, Buffalo fans were happy to see him gone, and I now realize why. Maybe if he was sandwiched between two monster wingers with a nasty disposition he would thrive, but the Leafs don't have such wingers so, no I have zero faith that he can turn his game around in Toronto.
Buffalo wanted him gone because he couldn't play a full season to them.. No one expected him to be that big, but he has some of the best hands in the game.. He didn't really get that much of a chance to play with good skilled players, and when Carlyle came he was part of the checking line.. His biggest problem was that he didn't shoot enough this year and always tried to make a pretty play.. I think coming into this season he'll settle down and get his game going again.. If he can stay healthy.. knock on wood.

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07-01-2012, 10:59 AM
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Buffalo wanted him gone because he couldn't play a full season to them.. No one expected him to be that big, but he has some of the best hands in the game.. He didn't really get that much of a chance to play with good skilled players, and when Carlyle came he was part of the checking line.. His biggest problem was that he didn't shoot enough this year and always tried to make a pretty play.. I think coming into this season he'll settle down and get his game going again.. If he can stay healthy.. knock on wood.
he better lose the indifferent attitude he showed last year.

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07-01-2012, 11:01 AM
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he better lose the indifferent attitude he showed last year.
Could be Wilson? He seemed to thrive once Carlyle got here on our checking line..

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07-01-2012, 11:19 AM
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This is a foolish suggestion since Mac's worth a pick. Why give away a tradeable asset for a free one? It doesn't make any sense, if you want Mueller you sign him for free then trade Mac for the best pick you can get. This way you don't get a contract in return, but you still gain assets.

Mueller was drafted as a center, but he's rarely played there in the NHL. Both Colorado and Phoenix have used him on the wing more than they have down the middle.
Yes MacArthur will return a positive asset and Mueller is just a cheap FA. No need to connect the two. Also did I miss the announcement where they cured concussions? Mueller's head is mush. He took a whole year off to recover from a concussion and then missed 50 games the next year. He offers an eggshell skull and no physical game to a club trying to get bigger and meaner. The only way you add a player that messed up is if you are payed for it and he is a UFA so nothing to deal for.

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07-01-2012, 11:26 AM
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Could be Wilson? He seemed to thrive once Carlyle got here on our checking line..
you'd think Burke would of asked Wilson his opinion of Connelly before signing him last summer, he is a player that you'd think fit into Wilson's type of team, Caryle's.......not so much.

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07-01-2012, 11:28 AM
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you'd think Burke would of asked Wilson his opinion of Connelly before signing him last summer, he is a player that you'd think fit into Wilson's type of team, Caryle's.......not so much.
How does Wilson know what Connolly is going to be like before he gets there? Maybe Connolly likes structure to his game.. Connolly also, like I said, didn't play with very many skilled guys.. I think if he shot more, and played with some better players, he could have better numbers..

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07-01-2012, 11:31 AM
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How does Wilson know what Connolly is going to be like before he gets there? Maybe Connolly likes structure to his game.. Connolly also, like I said, didn't play with very many skilled guys.. I think if he shot more, and played with some better players, he could have better numbers..
he played with every forward the Leaf had, and didn't fit with any of them. I'd also hope that Wilson would have a fairly good idea of how Connellly would fit into his system, after all although Wilson sucked in Toronto, he after all is a NHL calibre coach.

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07-01-2012, 11:32 AM
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I think he's injury prone, too small, and from what I saw last year indifferent to competing each game. No doubt he has skill, and has proven this in the past, but not recently, Buffalo fans were happy to see him gone, and I now realize why. Maybe if he was sandwiched between two monster wingers with a nasty disposition he would thrive, but the Leafs don't have such wingers so, no I have zero faith that he can turn his game around in Toronto.
He isn't small, he just plays small. He needs to be healthy to do anything at all and he is fragile. When he tries to play hurt he is totally ineffective and he seems to be hurt most of the time. He is still a lot more likely to give them a productive season than Lombardi, although he isn't as good a player when they are both healthy (but 2009 ain't coming back). If he can just not break he is useful. He proved it before but never built on his strong years. I want him gone, but they have to add someone with minimal skill to take his minutes. Kadri has not shown the ability to win faceoffs in the NHL but neither has Connolly so maybe thats the best band aid.

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07-01-2012, 11:45 AM
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Not sure why you think Connolly isn't capable of turning his game around? He was a consistent point producer in Buffalo..
I think Connolly could definitely turn his game around but then get a major injury. He totally sucked last year and stayed remarkably healthy throughout. No wonder Sabres fans were so happy to see him gone. It's a shame because you can see how much natural talent the guy has.

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