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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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Old
09-22-2012, 10:26 AM
  #276
19 in a row
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
You make good points.

If we feel bad for anyone, it should be the arena workers and sales staff, who'll have their hours cut or be laid off during the lockout.
agree totally... no I don't feel bad for either the billionaire owners or the millionaire players whenever a pro sports league has one of these, although I do feel bad a bit for the fringe players and kids who aren't making the big bucks and get hit hard. It's the staff, concessionaires, and others who eke out their livelihood from the nhl that really feel the sting of this. To a lesser extent dont forget us passionate fans who get screwed as well.

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09-22-2012, 12:50 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by 19 in a row View Post
agree totally... no I don't feel bad for either the billionaire owners or the millionaire players whenever a pro sports league has one of these, although I do feel bad a bit for the fringe players and kids who aren't making the big bucks and get hit hard. It's the staff, concessionaires, and others who eke out their livelihood from the nhl that really feel the sting of this. To a lesser extent dont forget us passionate fans who get screwed as well.
If the players actually were serious about this "standing together" business they should refrain from playing abroad too because it takes away the livelihood of their fellow players in other countries, but clearly that means jack s**t to them.

Which is why they should be locked in a room until the reach an agreement

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09-22-2012, 01:53 PM
  #278
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Love the Devellano analogy. Anytime the cattle want to build their own ranch, they can feel free to do so. And yes, the cattle are the show, but somebody has to pay for it. The ones who pay for the show have always made the big bucks until the schmoes can make enough money and join the "executive producing" circle (ala Mr. Lemieux).

All the owners need is to limit the idiots in their own circle who are offering ridiculous contracts. If they can't limit themselves (within the rules to avoid collusion), the company will and should fold.

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09-22-2012, 05:00 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
You make good points.

If we feel bad for anyone, it should be the arena workers and sales staff, who'll have their hours cut or be laid off during the lockout.
I'm one of those people who lost a job due to the lockout.

The PNC arena in Raleigh usually needs to be converted 3-4 times a week.

I think there are two conversions in October and two in November.

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09-22-2012, 06:05 PM
  #280
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I feel bad for everyone involved. This is not good for anyone - players, owners, fans, workers, etc. If you consider the smaller topics of this CBA, vs. the bigger topics of the last CBA, it is pretty insulting that things have come to this.

But take heart, I have seen cba negotiations in another arena get nasty/heated/stupid yet get resolved sometimes quickly. It is posturing. This time though they went extra heavy on the stupid sauce.

Ivan, my heart goes out to you and your family. I hope you have alternative means of getting by.

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09-23-2012, 11:09 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
I'm one of those people who lost a job due to the lockout.

The PNC arena in Raleigh usually needs to be converted 3-4 times a week.

I think there are two conversions in October and two in November.
Oh that sucks.

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09-23-2012, 12:41 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
I'm one of those people who lost a job due to the lockout.

The PNC arena in Raleigh usually needs to be converted 3-4 times a week.

I think there are two conversions in October and two in November.
I haven't posted much since last season ended. Mostly because of how disappointing the season turned out to be and now because I'm just incredibly disgusted with the NHL.

The fact that this is happening again is pathetic. Everyone involved should be ashamed.

I feel for people like yourself the most. Good luck with everything.

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Old
09-23-2012, 01:12 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
I'm one of those people who lost a job due to the lockout.

The PNC arena in Raleigh usually needs to be converted 3-4 times a week.

I think there are two conversions in October and two in November.
Hopefully this doesn't last to long and you'll be right back at work.

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Old
09-24-2012, 08:18 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by IslesNorway View Post
If the players actually were serious about this "standing together" business they should refrain from playing abroad too because it takes away the livelihood of their fellow players in other countries, but clearly that means jack s**t to them.

Which is why they should be locked in a room until the reach an agreement
This i Disagree with. THey are not part of there Union. If they were i would than agree with you. If i was out of a job because of a lockout or a strike and needed to work and i found a job. I would take it and not worry about the possible other person who lost there job etc.
I think all these players going to play overseas is a way for them to show that there are options for them perhaps

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09-24-2012, 10:40 AM
  #285
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I was talking about the health insurance not the layoffs.
This still doesn't make sense. Most, if not all, of the Europeans will be in Europe and are unaffected. Most, if not all, of the Canadians will be in Canada, where health care is provided, period. So, what, that could affect the few American players who decide to stay home?

I hate the lockout. It's ridiculous that the owners and players would halt the growth of the league, just when the economy is looking like it may turn around. The way the owners have gone about this has been simply crazy. Everyone realizes the following three points: (i) getting down to a 50-50 split is the right way to go, (ii) cap-loopholes need to be shored-up, and (iii) revenue sharing needs to start. But the owners obviously don't want reasonable, they want to break the union. Their initial proposal, which not only was radical in terms of revenue split, but it terms of control over players, screamed lockout.

This lockout will not end without Fehr's resignation. The owners have gone all-in, and the only possible result is a broken union. The only question is whether, at that point, the league will also be broken.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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09-24-2012, 01:41 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
This still doesn't make sense. Most, if not all, of the Europeans will be in Europe and are unaffected. Most, if not all, of the Canadians will be in Canada, where health care is provided, period. So, what, that could affect the few American players who decide to stay home?

I hate the lockout. It's ridiculous that the owners and players would halt the growth of the league, just when the economy is looking like it may turn around. The way the owners have gone about this has been simply crazy. Everyone realizes the following three points: (i) getting down to a 50-50 split is the right way to go, (ii) cap-loopholes need to be shored-up, and (iii) revenue sharing needs to start. But the owners obviously don't want reasonable, they want to break the union. Their initial proposal, which not only was radical in terms of revenue split, but it terms of control over players, screamed lockout.

This lockout will not end without Fehr's resignation. The owners have gone all-in, and the only possible result is a broken union. The only question is whether, at that point, the league will also be broken.

Cheers,

Dan-o
Some good points. I do not think the players have to much of a issue going to 50/50.
It sounds like they have a problem with Paycheck Rollbacks on current deals

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09-24-2012, 02:11 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Fantom View Post
This i Disagree with. THey are not part of there Union. If they were i would than agree with you. If i was out of a job because of a lockout or a strike and needed to work and i found a job. I would take it and not worry about the possible other person who lost there job etc.
I think all these players going to play overseas is a way for them to show that there are options for them perhaps
The flaw with this is that the star players going over don't need to work. And they are actually taking jobs from guys who do need them and only have a short window to make a few hundred grand over there.

For example, Crosby already has his $30M+ in the bank. Thus it's reprehensible for him if he chooses to go to EUR to take a job from some poor pro that went over to try to bank a few hundred grand to give his life a jumpstart when his short playing window closes.

When Crosby was questioned about this, his answer was, "we're hockey players, we need to play hockey". So he'll take a ~50% pay cut (or likely more when you factor insurance costs in) to go screw some guy who needs the gig out of a job just because Crosby wants to play.

I'm a big Crosby fan, but I lost a lot of respect for him when he said that because of the impact it has on the guy whose job he's taking who actually does need the job and will never bank in his career what Crosby makes in half a season.

It also goes to show the selfish mentality these spoiled players have.

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09-24-2012, 02:42 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
The flaw with this is that the star players going over don't need to work. And they are actually taking jobs from guys who do need them and only have a short window to make a few hundred grand over there.

For example, Crosby already has his $30M+ in the bank. Thus it's reprehensible for him if he chooses to go to EUR to take a job from some poor pro that went over to try to bank a few hundred grand to give his life a jumpstart when his short playing window closes.

When Crosby was questioned about this, his answer was, "we're hockey players, we need to play hockey". So he'll take a ~50% pay cut (or likely more when you factor insurance costs in) to go screw some guy who needs the gig out of a job just because Crosby wants to play.

I'm a big Crosby fan, but I lost a lot of respect for him when he said that because of the impact it has on the guy whose job he's taking who actually does need the job and will never bank in his career what Crosby makes in half a season.

It also goes to show the selfish mentality these spoiled players have.
I guess i see it differently. I dont want to see anyone out of a job. However who am i to tell someone they have enough $ already

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Old
09-24-2012, 03:27 PM
  #289
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Some good points. I do not think the players have to much of a issue going to 50/50.
It sounds like they have a problem with Paycheck Rollbacks on current deals
Yeah, I think it's the speed of the rollback + the demand for more control over players indicates that the NHL wants to break the union. It indicates they don't want a partner.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
09-25-2012, 08:35 AM
  #290
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The flaw with this is that the star players going over don't need to work. And they are actually taking jobs from guys who do need them and only have a short window to make a few hundred grand over there.

For example, Crosby already has his $30M+ in the bank. Thus it's reprehensible for him if he chooses to go to EUR to take a job from some poor pro that went over to try to bank a few hundred grand to give his life a jumpstart when his short playing window closes.

When Crosby was questioned about this, his answer was, "we're hockey players, we need to play hockey". So he'll take a ~50% pay cut (or likely more when you factor insurance costs in) to go screw some guy who needs the gig out of a job just because Crosby wants to play.

I'm a big Crosby fan, but I lost a lot of respect for him when he said that because of the impact it has on the guy whose job he's taking who actually does need the job and will never bank in his career what Crosby makes in half a season.

It also goes to show the selfish mentality these spoiled players have.
Nice!

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Old
09-25-2012, 08:41 AM
  #291
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...9157--nhl.html

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Old
09-25-2012, 08:47 AM
  #292
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Yeah, I think it's the speed of the rollback + the demand for more control over players indicates that the NHL wants to break the union. It indicates they don't want a partner.

Cheers,

Dan-o
And at the end of the day, it is clear that ultimately, the players will recognize that they are better off with an NHL than without. No doubts about that. Moreso than these owners, most of whom have a variety of other financial incomes and resources. The owners know this and the players will cave in.

And why not? They'll still make (much) more than anyone else with the exception of a handful or two of KHL players. They know that even if they must initially take another financial set-back, it's they're pride more than anything else that will be hurt, but something they'll again profit from once the owners become competitors again. There will always be some market battle, some 'going to the highest bidder' involved in it all. Then the salaries will adjust accordingly. Basically, the system asks the players to take cuts, then their salaries and opportunities rise steadily (and for some, astronomically) over 5-6 years time, then they're asked to take cuts again.

Seen as such, they should all just get it over with and start playing again. The lockout hurts the players and the sport over the long run a heck of a lot more than the owners, without whom there'd be no league.

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09-25-2012, 08:54 AM
  #293
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I lol'd nice

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Old
09-25-2012, 10:09 AM
  #294
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That was pretty good. Some really funny lines in there.

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09-25-2012, 10:28 AM
  #295
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One other thought to consider on the NHLers going to Europe.

Let's imagine things were reversed a bit and it was the players on strike instead of being locked out.

And let's say a couple of those North Americans that play in Europe (that rich NHLers are now taking meagre jobs from) decide to stay home and play in the NHL as scabs to bank a few bucks without leaving their families.

Would Crosby's opinion of them still be like this?

Quote:
"I'm a hockey player and it's a competitive business. Would I look forward to that opportunity of taking someone's job? No. But at the end of the day I'm a hockey player."

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09-25-2012, 10:53 AM
  #296
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The flaw with this is that the star players going over don't need to work. And they are actually taking jobs from guys who do need them and only have a short window to make a few hundred grand over there.

For example, Crosby already has his $30M+ in the bank. Thus it's reprehensible for him if he chooses to go to EUR to take a job from some poor pro that went over to try to bank a few hundred grand to give his life a jumpstart when his short playing window closes.

When Crosby was questioned about this, his answer was, "we're hockey players, we need to play hockey". So he'll take a ~50% pay cut (or likely more when you factor insurance costs in) to go screw some guy who needs the gig out of a job just because Crosby wants to play.

I'm a big Crosby fan, but I lost a lot of respect for him when he said that because of the impact it has on the guy whose job he's taking who actually does need the job and will never bank in his career what Crosby makes in half a season.

It also goes to show the selfish mentality these spoiled players have.
That is 100% correct. Some NHLers need the money they get from playing in Europe, especially tweeners and kids coming off ELCs, but the likes of Crosby, Ovechkin and others who are paid in millions do not. If playing hockey is their #1 goal, then they should tell their union to sort a deal out NOW!

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09-25-2012, 01:45 PM
  #297
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Seen as such, they should all just get it over with and start playing again. The lockout hurts the players and the sport over the long run a heck of a lot more than the owners, without whom there'd be no league.
Your reasoning depends crucially on the existence of the league as a monopoly, i.e. without rivals for talent. Given that, the blase attitude you express about what the owners are doing almost seems like you're asserting a monopoly's right to trample labor.

This is one area where I feel that most fans miss the significance of what is going on out of sheer ignorance. It's not like these sports leagues are *mere* monopolies. Rather, the NHL, like most sports leagues, is a monopoly that depends on public subsidies and specially constructed infrastructure to exist. When they negotiate in bad faith and fire their employees, they break the faith of the people who make their operations possible. This just isn't a situation where you can trot out the business case as if it is morally neutral.

The NHL has a duty to negotiate a labor agreement with players that is sustainable for its franchises. If that's what this is about, it would be one thing. Yet, you concede that this is not their sole motive (if so, they could do the reasonable thing). Whether the players ultimately decide to live with that is one thing. Whether people who finance and subsidize their facilities and infrastructure do is another thing. Whatever the case, we can be sure they won't lower ticket prices.

Which brings me round to complete the point: we wouldn't subsidize the owners w/their arenas, etc. if it weren't for the players. Think about this. They come as a package deal. The owners wouldn't have access to these additional revenue streams if it weren't for the players. (Unless, of course, the arena is where it is primarily to serve as a venue for other sports, like basketball).

Sports franchises aren't like other businesses, not even like other monopolies. It's ridiculous to argue as if they are.

Sports franchises are abusing both the trust of their labor and their public. This is now becoming glaringly obvious in the NFL. It would be in the case in the NHL, but - frankly - nobody cares.

In fact, if your argument reflects the views of Islanders ownership (and it probably does), they can move to Kansas City for all I care. I'm not a Nassau resident. I would've voted Yes to the arena initiative before this lockout. Now that I see how the owners are with this lockout, I'd vote a resounding NO every single time.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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09-25-2012, 01:57 PM
  #298
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Would Crosby's opinion of them still be like this?
Do you think players are intelligent enough to realize the difference between striking and being locked out?

I mean, your question is kind of like asking whether someone would be sorry for killing someone in self-defense if it were first degree murder instead.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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09-25-2012, 04:17 PM
  #299
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Do you think players are intelligent enough to realize the difference between striking and being locked out?

I mean, your question is kind of like asking whether someone would be sorry for killing someone in self-defense if it were first degree murder instead.

Cheers,

Dan-o
You're missing the point.

The point is not what he's doing, but how he rationalized / justified it in the media.

My question is would Crosby still tell the media that "hockey players need to play" regardless of taking someone else's job away if was his job being taken away?

If you'd seen the press conference, his demeanour was very much, "well, tough for those dudes, but we're players and we need to be playing, so I'll play wherever I can".

If the situation was that dude whose job he's supplanting applied the exact same philosophy and took Crosby's job in a strike, would Crosby still support his own philosophy and say, "well, he's a hockey player and hockey players need to play, so he'll play wherever he can"?

Of course he wouldn't.

He's just a greedy, overpaid mercenary, just like the owners. He wants his couple million in Europe even though he's got lots already and even if it costs some other poor schmuck his job. But if it was the other guy coming for his job, he'd be pissed.

He's a hypocrite.

They all are. Solidarity for the "players". They mean the "overpaid mooching NHL players", not "pro hockey players", who they are just as happy to screw out of a livelihood as the owners are to screw them.

Just be a man and say, "Yeah, I'm a greedy dude and we're going to screw some guys out of 20% of their lifetime earnings because we have opulent lifestyles that we need to keep up, cash we're losing in the lockout and because we can, so it's every man for himself."

There's no moral high ground in this fight, but the cattle are more greedy.

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09-25-2012, 05:39 PM
  #300
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Read this:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...4NxC7ZKMCxXGQM

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