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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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Old
09-30-2012, 07:25 AM
  #351
Chapin Landvogt
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I had the NHL Gamecenter last season (and at times, I was really disappointed with the picture quality - sometimes perfect and then it would just get fuzzy and stay that way for a while).

Anyhow, I wrote them a letter asking about how things are going to be done this season. I've received no answer.

Anyone else heard anything?

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09-30-2012, 11:58 AM
  #352
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According to Strang, they met yesterday and are set to meet again today to discuss the lock out. No word on if they have reached anything solid.

I am guessing if they dont have something solid by Friday they will start canceling the first few weeks of the season entirely. It is really discouraging as you read absolutely nothing that they are in any form of agreement. The players are all going to Europe, they are digging in for the long haul and it looks like there wont be hockey for a while.

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09-30-2012, 04:53 PM
  #353
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http://www.wralsportsfan.com/nhl/story/11608580/


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On Saturday, the sides focused on clarifications of definitions of what makes up hockey-related revenue a pot that exceeded $3 billion.
If they reached an agreed upon definition, that is a major step in the right direction.

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10-01-2012, 02:55 AM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
I had the NHL Gamecenter last season (and at times, I was really disappointed with the picture quality - sometimes perfect and then it would just get fuzzy and stay that way for a while).

Anyhow, I wrote them a letter asking about how things are going to be done this season. I've received no answer.

Anyone else heard anything?
No, but then again they have no product to sell as of now

I believe that here in Scandianvia Viasat now owns the rights to the NHL so I may have to sign on with them if the season eventually gets underway

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Old
10-01-2012, 12:56 PM
  #355
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This has now reached a level of irrepairable damages. We have the owners to thank for that. We are at a point where the first 15-20 games of the season are gone. If a deal is done this week we are looking at the season starting somewhere in mid november.

And the way things are looking, a deal won't be reached this week.

The way I look at it, I really don't think the owners give two ****es as to whether or not they destroy this sport. Well, the sport will be fine but the league is another matter. The players OTOH are actually willing to continue with the way things are.

The arguement on the part of the owners is over "continued growth". Given that revenues have increased significantly over the past six years or so they argue that at some point it will plateau. Which seems to be the argument of any business owners "If things are going well talk doom and gloom into the future, if things are the same and projected profits fall short do the same, if you're really not making any money who would really know?

If the folks can't make money working for you when times are good what's the point of working for you?

Overall, this is needless and the situaton IS created by the owners as they are the ones locking out the players over a manufactured projected "crisis". The problems they are having today are created by themselves. These dopes circumvented the cap that they created themselves after canceling a whole season.

Funny thing is that in the papers and sports talk radio (at least around here) this lockout hasn't made a ton of noise. Now with the situation in the NFL resolved, I would imagine with the coming "official" cancelation of regular season games, the media is gonna go ballistic over this. Afterall, a conglomerate that enjoys making hay over a crisis is not going to pass this up.

No way the league recovers from this mess. At least in my lifetime.

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Old
10-01-2012, 03:20 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by CDirt View Post

No way the league recovers from this mess. At least in my lifetime.
good rant/post!

Bettman's continual bullying of the players, forcing them to fix owner behaviour by stealing from the players (via lockout and cancelled games) and the fans is irresponsible.

I'm surprised more owners don't get on Bettman for this. Cancelling hockey just hurts the image/brand of the NHL who's already struggling in so many US markets. This un-does all the work accomplished in recent years, forcing so many owners of these smaller market teams to start over.

His ego is bigger than the game. I am surprised owners allow him to get away with this over and over again. In the end, isn't Bettman's performance about BOTH the financial stability of the franchises (financial VALUE of the teams) AS WELL AS the NHL brand?

The suckers in all this are the core fans...because we'll always come back to the game. We're the idiots stuck in an abusive relationship that aren't smart enough to move on. Isles fans know this feeling especially well.

I'd like to see accountability at the NHL level - and that's Bettman.

I don't blame Fehr, he's the new guy, trying to repair the mess left from Goodenow and the other theatrics since then.

This is no different than a three year old reduced to temper tantrums to get what he wants, and he gets away with it, now for the third time. This behaviour needs not be rewarded....especially not when the tantrums have specifically led to what we face today.

#disaster

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Old
10-01-2012, 03:50 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
This is no different than a three year old reduced to temper tantrums to get what he wants, and he gets away with it, now for the third time. This behaviour needs not be rewarded....especially not when the tantrums have specifically led to what we face today.

#disaster
I've got a three year old, and if dealing with Bettman was exactly as easy/hard as dealing with a three year old, put me on the job.

I disagree about the ego thing. This is actually about the sense of entitlement investors have developed over the last 10 years - investors believe they should be protected against losses come what may.

This is why the NFL is not a comparison. The NFL decided to share revenues as part of a proactive business plan to grow the league. The NHL, on the other hand, is scrambling to correct their overreach, and poor planning. The NHL owners and leadership, however, believe the players (and the fans) should take all the responsibility for their mistakes.

It is, of course, true, that a more equitable division needs to be determined. But it's also obvious that no notion of fairness is driving the owners' demands.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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10-01-2012, 05:43 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
good rant/post!

Bettman's continual bullying of the players, forcing them to fix owner behaviour by stealing from the players (via lockout and cancelled games) and the fans is irresponsible.

I'm surprised more owners don't get on Bettman for this. Cancelling hockey just hurts the image/brand of the NHL who's already struggling in so many US markets. This un-does all the work accomplished in recent years, forcing so many owners of these smaller market teams to start over.

His ego is bigger than the game. I am surprised owners allow him to get away with this over and over again. In the end, isn't Bettman's performance about BOTH the financial stability of the franchises (financial VALUE of the teams) AS WELL AS the NHL brand?

The suckers in all this are the core fans...because we'll always come back to the game. We're the idiots stuck in an abusive relationship that aren't smart enough to move on. Isles fans know this feeling especially well.

I'd like to see accountability at the NHL level - and that's Bettman.

I don't blame Fehr, he's the new guy, trying to repair the mess left from Goodenow and the other theatrics since then.

This is no different than a three year old reduced to temper tantrums to get what he wants, and he gets away with it, now for the third time. This behaviour needs not be rewarded....especially not when the tantrums have specifically led to what we face today.

#disaster
betman does what the owners want. If they did not want to lock out players he would not lock them out. Betman is just the face of the owners and had little to no say. he works for the owners not the ohter way around. if the owners do not want to lockout guys betman cant and would not lockout anyone. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BETMAN

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Old
10-01-2012, 07:50 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by CDirt View Post
No way the league recovers from this mess. At least in my lifetime.
Of course it will recover, and it will recover quickly. Sponsors will flock back and so will TV because you don't bit torrent sports - you watch it live with the commercials.

Most people don't care enough to pick sides, they shrug a say, just tell me when it's back, especially hockey fans because they, for the most part, aren't casual fans.

Don't kid yourself. They completely blew it up and it came back stronger. We'll all be back when it's over.

The owners know this, it's why they have no fear. And it's why the players will ultimately lose - it's just a matter of how much of this Year's salary they want to lose before acquiescing...

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Old
10-01-2012, 08:16 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Fantom View Post
betman does what the owners want. If they did not want to lock out players he would not lock them out. Betman is just the face of the owners and had little to no say. he works for the owners not the ohter way around. if the owners do not want to lockout guys betman cant and would not lockout anyone. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BETMAN
Bettman is brilliant, he has managed to keep the owners quiet for a 3rd time (except Devellano) and has acted as the single voice for the owners (and Daly).

Don't underestimate Bettman's leadership and his role in this. He has the ear of the owners. He works for them, yes, but they hired him to lead this for them. Not unlike Fehr for the players.

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Old
10-02-2012, 08:21 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Bettman is brilliant, he has managed to keep the owners quiet for a 3rd time (except Devellano) and has acted as the single voice for the owners (and Daly).

Don't underestimate Bettman's leadership and his role in this. He has the ear of the owners. He works for them, yes, but they hired him to lead this for them. Not unlike Fehr for the players.
yes. However he is not telling the owners what they want. THey tell him and he does it. THey tell him they want to cut etc. He may say ok well this is how we can do that. However if the owners did not want a cut he would not ask for one from the players etc.
Also please correct me if i am wrong Dvellano is not a owner. he is a president not a owner

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Old
10-02-2012, 08:42 AM
  #362
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I'm not going to assign blame here. This is a failure of good faith on both parts, driven by seperate desires. One side or the other is acting in a more irresponsible way, but both sides have many things to answer for, and both have room to wiggle.
The players fleeing to Europe to play is not supportive of their stance and leaves behind their brother union members that do not have that option. I believe that they should all stand together and sacrifice equally if they want to present a united front.
We keep hearing that revenue has increased and is at $3.3 billion USD to the owners are greedy guys who want to gouge the players.
Two things here: The market is established by the owners willingness to pay what the players ask for. No one forces them to offer contracts that they then compalin about. These are contracts that are not "too large", they are what is offered and accepted.
The increased revenue is mainly driven by the increased value of the Canadian dollar over the last several years. I have not done the math, but wonder if there was real growth when measure in constant currency. This distorts all revenue measures unless indexed. It is also an unmanagable situation that is driven by currency values. The currency market expands or contracts with nothing to do with ticket prices or fans in seats. If the Canadian dollar were to contract by 20% this year, revenue would take a hit.
The NHL players should come back and stand shoulder to shoulder with their league-wide brothers, and drive the process for a quick, equitable settlement. Each side must be open to adjustment, and if it goes into the month of November, they need to agree to binding, non-partisan mediation.

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Old
10-02-2012, 09:37 AM
  #363
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In Brooks' new article he says that in the next couple days they will announce the cancellation of the first two weeks of the season and possibly the entire month of October.

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Old
10-02-2012, 10:02 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
good rant/post!

Bettman's continual bullying of the players, forcing them to fix owner behaviour by stealing from the players (via lockout and cancelled games) and the fans is irresponsible.

I'm surprised more owners don't get on Bettman for this. Cancelling hockey just hurts the image/brand of the NHL who's already struggling in so many US markets. This un-does all the work accomplished in recent years, forcing so many owners of these smaller market teams to start over.

His ego is bigger than the game. I am surprised owners allow him to get away with this over and over again. In the end, isn't Bettman's performance about BOTH the financial stability of the franchises (financial VALUE of the teams) AS WELL AS the NHL brand?

The suckers in all this are the core fans...because we'll always come back to the game. We're the idiots stuck in an abusive relationship that aren't smart enough to move on. Isles fans know this feeling especially well.

I'd like to see accountability at the NHL level - and that's Bettman.

I don't blame Fehr, he's the new guy, trying to repair the mess left from Goodenow and the other theatrics since then.

This is no different than a three year old reduced to temper tantrums to get what he wants, and he gets away with it, now for the third time. This behaviour needs not be rewarded....especially not when the tantrums have specifically led to what we face today.

#disaster
Outstanding post. Some people feel that the NHL owners are greedy and some blame the players as being greedy. Guess what- people are greedy or at a minimum want their share from their frame of reference. The same problems occur in the NFL, NBA and MLB and they have their share of lost games, but they don't lose a season- only in the NHL. Bettman is the difference. And as you pointed out he's the consistent factor, not Fehr or Goodenow.


Last edited by original islander: 10-02-2012 at 10:21 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old
10-02-2012, 10:53 AM
  #365
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yes. However he is not telling the owners what they want. THey tell him and he does it. THey tell him they want to cut etc. He may say ok well this is how we can do that. However if the owners did not want a cut he would not ask for one from the players etc.
Also please correct me if i am wrong Dvellano is not a owner. he is a president not a owner
We can agree to disagree, we'll never know exactly what it's like behind closed doors. But I believe Bettman is steering that ship and has full support of the owners. I seriously doubt he takes direction from them. There are some really powerful (and filthy rich) owners in that room that I'm SURE put pressure behind closed doors, but they are ONE VOICE, which is Bettman and that's pretty outstanding leadership (in terms of solidarity and direction).

Devellano is not an owner. I'm referring to recent comments he made though, alluding to players being "cattle" and the owners will make all the decisions. He also alluded to "collusion" in his comments, but that's for another thread. (It was in Elliotte Friedman's recent post at CBC.ca)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD View Post
I'm not going to assign blame here. This is a failure of good faith on both parts, driven by seperate desires. One side or the other is acting in a more irresponsible way, but both sides have many things to answer for, and both have room to wiggle.

---
The NHL players should come back and stand shoulder to shoulder with their league-wide brothers, and drive the process for a quick, equitable settlement. Each side must be open to adjustment, and if it goes into the month of November, they need to agree to binding, non-partisan mediation.
good post.

I don't typically take sides and I agree they BOTH have room to give. But it's tough to NOT side with the players on this one.

The owners have locked out the players, the players are willing to continue playing under the current agreement and negotiate.

The owners are asking the players to subsidize their poor-owner behaviour, in a system that THEY WANTED after the last lockout, where the players lost a year's salary AND took a huge paycut.

Seems like the owners are being a little inflexible and simply forcing the players to cave to their demands, just like the last time. And if it costs a season, so be it.

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Old
10-02-2012, 11:01 AM
  #366
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I've got a three year old, and if dealing with Bettman was exactly as easy/hard as dealing with a three year old, put me on the job.

I disagree about the ego thing. This is actually about the sense of entitlement investors have developed over the last 10 years - investors believe they should be protected against losses come what may.

This is why the NFL is not a comparison. The NFL decided to share revenues as part of a proactive business plan to grow the league. The NHL, on the other hand, is scrambling to correct their overreach, and poor planning. The NHL owners and leadership, however, believe the players (and the fans) should take all the responsibility for their mistakes.

It is, of course, true, that a more equitable division needs to be determined. But it's also obvious that no notion of fairness is driving the owners' demands.

Cheers,

Dan-o
Ego or sense of entitlement, hm, to me, they are the same thing.

Protecting against losses is one form of a sustainable revenue model, but isn't that what the recently expired CBA was? A hard cap related to league-wide revenues?

If investors think the way to protect against losses is to take from the players then that's hardly a negotiation as partners, in good faith.

The system is made of 30 teams, each have disparate revenues and costs and profitability models, unique markets and unique challenges. Aggregate costs (with player salaries representing the highest cost, certainly) is only ONE aspect that needs to be collectively bargained (like the hard cap was).

As you pointed out, I don't see how the NFL system isn't something the NHL OWNERS should want? should strive for? A truly healthy league, balanced across markets, profitable, sustainable. I don't understand why the owners don't push hard for this system which includes revenue sharing. I know the numbers are far different but the system should be repeatable.

Maybe they'll get to it, eventually, before another lost season.

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10-02-2012, 04:14 PM
  #367
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There has to be middle ground that both sides can agree on. Its just a matter of finding it. But you don't get to a middle ground if you're only meeting a few hours a day.

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10-03-2012, 09:40 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by 10 Min Misconduct View Post
There has to be middle ground that both sides can agree on. Its just a matter of finding it. But you don't get to a middle ground if you're only meeting a few hours a day.
This i can agree with. I am sure both sides are trying to force some type of deadline and make the other side blink.

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10-03-2012, 11:49 AM
  #369
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Protecting against losses is one form of a sustainable revenue model, but isn't that what the recently expired CBA was? A hard cap related to league-wide revenues?
You misunderstood me, so forgive me if I get a little technical.

Two different models:

1. A system that ensures that a representative franchise will not lose money. This is what the existing hard cap achieves. However, there is no doubt that there are holes in the hard cap (burying contracts, cap circumvention, contract length) that must be shored up.

2. A system that ensures that all franchises, despite their failings, will not lose money.

The NHL has #1. They are looking for #2. By looking to the players to provide for the cutbacks to achieve it, they are further looking to guarantee #3:

3. A system that ensures that representative franchises make a crapload of money, enough to drive the equity of the franchise to the levels seen in other pro sports.

The NHL is also seeking to protect weak franchises by increasing the time of control over entry level players.

The NHLPA would be crazy to negotiate off of the NHL's proposal, and "meet in the middle". The NHL's request for 10 year control over players was an attempt to divide and conquer by pitting the best players who would have the most to lose over an increase in control against the weaker players who have the most to lose over a decrease in the revenue allotted to players.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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10-03-2012, 12:57 PM
  #370
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I thought the funniest thing was yesterday's comment by the NHL, that they are losing 100 million by cancelling the exhibition games. Umm, NHL, aren't you the ones locking out the players ? The 100 million could be in your pockets if you didn't lock them out. Dumbest comment ever. Unfortunately, these are the same people in charge of trying to negotiate for the owners in this lockout. This could take a LONG time. I'll be watching KHL hockey on ESPN3 this year. Hopefully some AHL and Junior hockey on The NHL Network as well. Gretzky said he believes it'll be settled by January's Winter Classic, I believe he's probably going to be right.

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10-03-2012, 02:17 PM
  #371
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I thought the funniest thing was yesterday's comment by the NHL, that they are losing 100 million by cancelling the exhibition games. Umm, NHL, aren't you the ones locking out the players ? The 100 million could be in your pockets if you didn't lock them out. Dumbest comment ever. Unfortunately, these are the same people in charge of trying to negotiate for the owners in this lockout. This could take a LONG time. I'll be watching KHL hockey on ESPN3 this year. Hopefully some AHL and Junior hockey on The NHL Network as well. Gretzky said he believes it'll be settled by January's Winter Classic, I believe he's probably going to be right.
It's actually not a dumb comment. You know why? Because right now 57% of the $100M goes into the players' pockets and only 43M of it would have gone to Gary's Gang.

So by making that statement, they are telling the players that they just lost between 50M and 57M (so far) depending on how their percentage plays out.

That message wasn't for us, and it isn't dumb -- it was meant for the agents first and the players second. And it was a warning that the pie is starting to shrink...

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10-03-2012, 03:49 PM
  #372
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It's actually not a dumb comment. You know why? Because right now 57% of the $100M goes into the players' pockets and only 43M of it would have gone to Gary's Gang.
Umm, you know that if that offer were on the table, there wouldn't be a lockout, right?

Reverse the percentages. That's the owners' offer.

But you're right about one thing: the owners aren't concerned with the fans.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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10-03-2012, 04:49 PM
  #373
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Umm, you know that if that offer were on the table, there wouldn't be a lockout, right?

Reverse the percentages. That's the owners' offer.

But you're right about one thing: the owners aren't concerned with the fans.

Cheers,

Dan-o
And neither are the players concerned with the fans.

but my point is the same even if the % is reversed. The point is the players will now get 0% of that 100M instead of between 43 and 50-something % of it. And that is the point Bill was trying to make to the agents and the players.

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10-03-2012, 07:34 PM
  #374
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This i can agree with. I am sure both sides are trying to force some type of deadline and make the other side blink.
But if we "idiots" can see it from the outside without knowledge of the inner workings of the league and the union, why can't they see it?

How do they see it as acceptable to only meet for a few hours a day? The league is complaining they lost $100 million in preseason revenue. If they were so concerned about losing that money they would be sitting down for a hell of a lot longer to try and get a deal done. I almost feel like there is no rush. That because the millionaire (players) can live comfortably for a while and the billionaire (owners) can live for god knows how long.

This whole thing is just BS and frustrating.

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10-04-2012, 12:03 AM
  #375
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How do they see it as acceptable to only meet for a few hours a day?

I don't mean to butcher your comment to just this.. but this is one part that really pisses me off.. I completely understand that neither side really wants to concede to the other but (from a fans perspective) seriously meeting once every week or two is no way to make a deal!! I do completely understand that calling off meetings and all that account towards leverage but as a fan hearing that they're spending less time meeting then I'm putting towards lunch each week is so frustrating.

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