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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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10-04-2012, 09:25 AM
  #376
Dan-o16
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
And neither are the players concerned with the fans.

but my point is the same even if the % is reversed. The point is the players will now get 0% of that 100M instead of between 43 and 50-something % of it. And that is the point Bill was trying to make to the agents and the players.
That's a load of derp. The owners are locking the players out.

So you're point, if I understand it is... The owners are waving bucks in the players' faces - the bucks that they'd like to pay only if the players would accept the owners' lowball offer. Otherwise they're going to lock them out. That's obviously a strategy for creating conflict, not furthering negotiation.

I'm too exasperated for cheers,

Dan-o

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10-04-2012, 09:45 AM
  #377
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You misunderstood me, so forgive me if I get a little technical.

Two different models:

1. A system that ensures that a representative franchise will not lose money. This is what the existing hard cap achieves. However, there is no doubt that there are holes in the hard cap (burying contracts, cap circumvention, contract length) that must be shored up.

2. A system that ensures that all franchises, despite their failings, will not lose money.

The NHL has #1. They are looking for #2. By looking to the players to provide for the cutbacks to achieve it, they are further looking to guarantee #3:

3. A system that ensures that representative franchises make a crapload of money, enough to drive the equity of the franchise to the levels seen in other pro sports.

The NHL is also seeking to protect weak franchises by increasing the time of control over entry level players.

The NHLPA would be crazy to negotiate off of the NHL's proposal, and "meet in the middle". The NHL's request for 10 year control over players was an attempt to divide and conquer by pitting the best players who would have the most to lose over an increase in control against the weaker players who have the most to lose over a decrease in the revenue allotted to players.

Cheers,

Dan-o
I don't think either of #1 or #2 is feasible. The issue is with the incredibly large gate revenue difference among teams. You add just the arena revenues for teams and there's a drastic difference from the $300 Leafs tickets to the $10 Tampa tickets, total ticket sales, private box revenues, concessions, parking....I suspect there's a gigantic difference among the franchises.

But where the NHL system will fail is that their aggregate costs are way too high relative to league revenues. The league could make a case for the sharing of these revenues across the 30 teams which COULD equalize things more, and "ensure" profitability, but this revenue number just isn't high enough to make a tangible difference.

The TV contract money in the NHL is not close to the NFL (for example) but players are paid comparable salaries. This, I don't understand. And although I think the owners are bullying the players, it's a bit absurd to think that labour costs would represent such a high percentage of league revenues. I don't think many businesses could survive if 57% of their revenues went to labour (granted all industries are vastly different in their structure, division of assets, capital, etc).

Too many teams rely on attendance, arena revenues and teams with poor attendance, bad arenas (see: NYI!) will always struggle to be profitable, even in strong hockey markets.

One thing the players must eventually concede on is that the NHL model can never have an open labour market. And a limited market (like free agency) causes unhealthy inflation of costs in the league, forcing teams to overpay players. It's easy to say "the owners did it to themselves" when the reality is they just succumb to market dynamics.

There's a solution in there somewhere.

It's too bad ego, posturing and the game of "who blinks first" is killing the season and hurting the game and the NHL brand. At least we have the KHL highlights

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10-04-2012, 12:04 PM
  #378
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At this point i don't give a **** anymore. I hope they lock them out for two years at this rate. **** it, I'm done with hockey. ****ing balls of both parties acting like this and then making ******** claims that they don't give a ****, the fans will be back. Won't spend another dime on them as soon a they announce they cancel one regular season game.

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10-04-2012, 01:14 PM
  #379
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NHL Cancels Season through October 24th

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=6...id=DL|NHL|home

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10-04-2012, 01:15 PM
  #380
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Games officially cancelled through Oct 24th.

This winter is gonna suck so ****ing hard.

**** the owners. **** Fehr. **** everyone.

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10-04-2012, 01:22 PM
  #381
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NHL Cancels Season through October 24th

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=6...id=DL|NHL|home


Its so ridiculous its almost funny.

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10-04-2012, 01:23 PM
  #382
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Its so ridiculous its almost funny.
I just heard that all 82 games have been cancelled. It was retwitted from NBC Nightly News. Although now I am seeing that it's through 10/24.

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10-04-2012, 02:03 PM
  #383
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I just heard that all 82 games have been cancelled. It was retwitted from NBC Nightly News. Although now I am seeing that it's through 10/24.
No. 82 is the number of games IN TOTAL that were canceled through 10/24.

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10-04-2012, 02:09 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
That's a load of derp. The owners are locking the players out.

So you're point, if I understand it is... The owners are waving bucks in the players' faces - the bucks that they'd like to pay only if the players would accept the owners' lowball offer. Otherwise they're going to lock them out. That's obviously a strategy for creating conflict, not furthering negotiation.

I'm too exasperated for cheers,

Dan-o
It's not derp. The players don't give a crap about the fans either and you're absolutely delusional if you think they do regardless of who initiated the labor action.

And yes, the last time I checked the players were making an average of $2M a year and that is more than a number of franchises are making, so, yes the players need to take less.

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10-04-2012, 02:14 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
It's not derp. The players don't give a crap about the fans either and you're absolutely delusional if you think they do regardless of who initiated the labor action.

And yes, the last time I checked the players were making an average of $2M a year and that is more than a number of franchises are making, so, yes the players need to take less.
Completely agreed, both sides are at fault.

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Old
10-04-2012, 02:16 PM
  #386
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And yes, the last time I checks the players were making an average of $2M a year and that is more than a number of franchises are making, so, yes the players need to take less.
Ah. So, if I fail to turn a profit at the end of the year, then I should cut my employees paycheck 20%, and they should be happy about it.

Basically, you think that players should be treated as if they have equity in the league, while they have no equity. Derp.

Dan-o

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Old
10-04-2012, 03:21 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Twine Seeking Missle View Post
Games officially cancelled through Oct 24th.

This winter is gonna suck so ****ing hard.

**** the owners. **** Fehr. **** everyone.
This

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Old
10-04-2012, 03:48 PM
  #388
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Completely agreed, both sides are at fault.
The amount of money the players make might indeed be to much for the sport of hockey. However the onwers are the ones who gave into a players contract demands. No one is going to turn down a 11M dollar bonus that the owner has put in front of them.
Its not the players faults the onwers are doing this contracts. the owners can stop the contrat amount at any time just dont offer those $ anymore. The issue is that the big market teams can pay that much and in turn hurt the small guy who wants to compete but cant due to $

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10-04-2012, 04:08 PM
  #389
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Games officially cancelled through Oct 24th.

This winter is gonna suck so ****ing hard.

**** the owners. **** Fehr. **** everyone.
Yup. my mom got my tickets to opening night so i emailed customer service to ask how i get my money back and they said "there are no refunds on islanders tickets except for extenuating circumstances" to which my reply was "they cancelled the first 3 weeks of the season, I HAVE NO GAME TO GO TO. Is that not extenuating enough for you?"

so disgusted by this horsecrap of a league.

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Old
10-04-2012, 04:09 PM
  #390
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The amount of money the players make might indeed be to much for the sport of hockey. However the onwers are the ones who gave into a players contract demands. No one is going to turn down a 11M dollar bonus that the owner has put in front of them.
Its not the players faults the onwers are doing this contracts. the owners can stop the contrat amount at any time just dont offer those $ anymore. The issue is that the big market teams can pay that much and in turn hurt the small guy who wants to compete but cant due to $
Completely agree.

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10-04-2012, 04:40 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Fantom View Post
The amount of money the players make might indeed be to much for the sport of hockey. However the onwers are the ones who gave into a players contract demands. No one is going to turn down a 11M dollar bonus that the owner has put in front of them.
Its not the players faults the onwers are doing this contracts. the owners can stop the contrat amount at any time just dont offer those $ anymore. The issue is that the big market teams can pay that much and in turn hurt the small guy who wants to compete but cant due to $
I said something along these lines ealier in this thread it was shot down by someone.: The owners need to have rules in the CBA to protect their GMs from themselves. The GMs need to be protected from themselves.

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10-04-2012, 05:31 PM
  #392
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its an owners job to pay the bills, its the players job to win the games, its the GM's job to figure out a way to get a leg up on everyone else. you know, except for snow.



still think this whole thing is ****ing ********. i dont see what the players hope to gain by not even giving a counter proposal...

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10-04-2012, 06:29 PM
  #393
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I said something along these lines ealier in this thread it was shot down by someone.: The owners need to have rules in the CBA to protect their GMs from themselves. The GMs need to be protected from themselves.
The most simple solution is to base the cap off the average of the middle 24 teams' revenue. Lop off the 3 richest and lop off the three poorest. The Leafs and Rangers skew the league revenue and make it unsustainable for the bulk of teams. The answer is to flatten the curve by chopping off the high and low outliers to compute the cap from. Then teams can spend to the max easier without blowing their brains out.

50-50 split based on the median 24 teams prorated to a 30 team HRR total. Players take a haircut, the the league becomes sustainable as a whole.

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10-04-2012, 07:02 PM
  #394
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The most simple solution is to base the cap off the average of the middle 24 teams' revenue. Lop off the 3 richest and lop off the three poorest. The Leafs and Rangers skew the league revenue and make it unsustainable for the bulk of teams. The answer is to flatten the curve by chopping off the high and low outliers to compute the cap from. Then teams can spend to the max easier without blowing their brains out.

50-50 split based on the median 24 teams prorated to a 30 team HRR total. Players take a haircut, the the league becomes sustainable as a whole.
We have a winner

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Old
10-05-2012, 07:04 AM
  #395
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
The most simple solution is to base the cap off the average of the middle 24 teams' revenue. Lop off the 3 richest and lop off the three poorest. The Leafs and Rangers skew the league revenue and make it unsustainable for the bulk of teams. The answer is to flatten the curve by chopping off the high and low outliers to compute the cap from. Then teams can spend to the max easier without blowing their brains out.

50-50 split based on the median 24 teams prorated to a 30 team HRR total. Players take a haircut, the the league becomes sustainable as a whole.
I agree in principle with this. The bottleneck is defining HRR which leaves pleny of room for substantial interpretation and has major impications on the final pool of revenue to be split up.
No matter how the owner group wants to view their investment and operating costs, the financial model is dependent on the largest expense, player salaries. The players have to accept compensation on what the market will bear, not some percieved value that they themselves create. The ownership has contributed to distortions in pay rates by overpaying. The cap is a good way of regulating salary expense, but both sides have to deal in the marketplace of reasonable value without overpaying.
Long term contracts are not the friend of professional sports. There must be some out clause, buy out if performance doesn't equal expense.
If this is to get settled this year it will take much more effort on the part of both sides to get down to work. Stalling and posturing is not an effectve negotiating tool this time.

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10-05-2012, 07:43 AM
  #396
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The most simple solution is to base the cap off the average of the middle 24 teams' revenue. Lop off the 3 richest and lop off the three poorest. The Leafs and Rangers skew the league revenue and make it unsustainable for the bulk of teams. The answer is to flatten the curve by chopping off the high and low outliers to compute the cap from. Then teams can spend to the max easier without blowing their brains out.

50-50 split based on the median 24 teams prorated to a 30 team HRR total. Players take a haircut, the the league becomes sustainable as a whole.
thats not a bad idea. However its not great either. the 4 high $ teams would feel like they have no say

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10-05-2012, 10:27 AM
  #397
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Lets say the players lose out and have to take this Supposed 24% pay cut on there contracts. Should the players have a option to also back out of there contract and sign a new one if they saw fit.
if the Owners have the right to change there pay they should have the right to want out and sign elsewhere perhaps ?

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10-05-2012, 11:19 AM
  #398
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thats not a bad idea. However its not great either. the 4 high $ teams would feel like they have no say
i dont think so, i think they would like that deal bc while still making more $$ than the rest, they dont have the cap go up much based on their revenue...so they can afford their players with even less finincial strain. i like this idea a lot.

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10-05-2012, 12:06 PM
  #399
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i dont think so, i think they would like that deal bc while still making more $$ than the rest, they dont have the cap go up much based on their revenue...so they can afford their players with even less financial strain. i like this idea a lot.
I would not see it that way if i was them. They seem to making $ and they should be allowed to spend it to a point. IF you take there $$$ out of the Cap Equation then they cant spend etc. Big market teams dont want a fair Playing field. they want to spend there $ becuase they can afford too.

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10-05-2012, 02:15 PM
  #400
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As I see it I think I'm done with these idiots for the year. They come back next season then I ain't botherin with em then either. I won't have a damn thing to do with the NHL. Not one hat, T Shirt, Jersey or ticket.

Owners want to cancel the season cause their fat butts don't own enough as it is then I don't have to support em. I'm so sick of em I can't even stomach to participate in their product. They do this just expecting us to crawl back.

Well, I ain't gonna do it. I've been a loyal follower and consumer of this league for over thirty years. They don't need me, well, I don't really need them. I have a family to support anyways. More dough in my pocket.

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