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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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Old
10-10-2012, 12:30 PM
  #426
Dan-o16
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More importantly, though, the NHL doesn't want to move a franchise from the #1 media market into one of their target markets (QC, S. Ont., Seattle) because they want to expand into those markets at a $200M franchise fee rather than a $60M relo fee. NYI can work quite profitably in the NYC area with a better arena or owned by guys who own an arena.
It doesn't matter how big the market is if nobody cares. It's getting close to nobody cares.... except for Rangers fans.

Some media market if you're on Hofstra radio. Some media market if you're being buried by the competitor who owns your TV rights.

Basically, nobody cares. A year of no hockey solidifies the fact that nobody cares.

Bettman isn't going to risk the appearance of his franchises having zero equity in favor of a one-time franchise fee. An Islanders franchise with no place to play, about which nobody cares, is worth junk.

He'll let them move.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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10-10-2012, 12:32 PM
  #427
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No decreasing losses.

Wang's losses pre-2009 were reportedly $20m a yr(according to Wang).

In 2009, County Exec. Souzzi amended the Coliseum sub-lease, forcing SMG to share some of the profits with Wang. Botta wrote that this was a windfall for Wang.

According to Forbes and the National Post article below, Wang's lost $4.5m, $5.6m and $8.1m in the last 3 seasons.

That's a far cry from the $20m he'd previously claimed to have lost each season.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...the-bottom-up/
So, because he lost $8m recently instead of $20 mil that changes everything? This is part of a recipe for success? Who cares? With the lowest payroll, a decent lease and the TV contract NYI is yet again LAST in revenue and has lost many millions the last 3 seasons. If he loses $4mil the next season do NYI become competitive and we hold a parade?

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10-10-2012, 12:32 PM
  #428
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Amazing that fans don't know enough to know, yet you know who is really serious.

Noise.

Cheers,

Dan-o
I've never claimed insider info.The press reported Peltz interest in buying the team.

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10-10-2012, 12:34 PM
  #429
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Did he buy them?

With no arena agreement in place.


Do you think he was unaware of the anena issues when he approached Wang?

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10-10-2012, 12:36 PM
  #430
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So, because he lost $8m recently instead of $20 mil that changes everything? This is part of a recipe for success? Who cares? With the lowest payroll, a decent lease and the TV contract NYI is yet again LAST in revenue and has lost many millions the last 3 seasons. If he loses $4mil the next season do NYI become competitive and we hold a parade?

What changes everything is getting a much stronger lease, after 2015.

Combining that stronger lease + a huge cable deal + increased attendance from a stronger on ice product+ playoff revenue.

Oh and let's not forget Daly's comments about the Isles,Ducks and Devils pushing for revenue sharing in the new cba. That'd be an extra $5m-$15m per season.

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10-10-2012, 12:41 PM
  #431
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Do you think he was unaware of the anena issues when he approached Wang?
Do you think he was serious? About him staying in Nassau? So serious the sale never went through. With no arena deal.

Peltz is known for flipping assets. He likely was looking to buy low, sell to someone else (maybe in Brooklyn?) and just kicked tires. Nothing to see there. Like LaFontaine was reported buying NYI 5 times the last few years. See, anything can be reported. Hey, I'm interested in buying NYI. Stop the presses!!! Write that down!!!

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10-10-2012, 12:49 PM
  #432
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What changes everything is getting a much stronger lease, after 2015.

Combining that stronger lease + a huge cable deal + increased attendance from a stronger on ice product+ playoff revenue.

Oh and let's not forget Daly's comments about the Isles,Ducks and Devils pushing for revenue sharing in the new cba. That'd be an extra $5m-$15m per season.
There's no guaranteed stronger lease post 2015. (Likely the GOP will revert to their past take and not give what Suozzi did.) There's not even an arena.

Since you're ASSUMING an arena, no guaranteed stronger lease, a cable TV deal that has them lose revenue now, non corporate supported attendance and non guaranteed yearly playoff revenue leaves bupkis.

Do you really think the NHL is going to give NYI revenue sharing when market size is based on TV households reached and is the main reason the cable deal is so lucrative. You expect them to classify NYI as small market to get both revenue sharing with the known cable deal? Priceless.

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10-10-2012, 12:53 PM
  #433
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Do you think he was serious? About him staying in Nassau? So serious the sale never went through. With no arena deal.

Peltz is known for flipping assets. He likely was looking to buy low, sell to someone else (maybe in Brooklyn?) and just kicked tires. Nothing to see there. Like LaFontaine was reported buying NYI 5 times the last few years. See, anything can be reported. Hey, I'm interested in buying NYI. Stop the presses!!! Write that down!!!

So because Wang was not interested in selling, Peltz's interest wasn't serious?

Peltz and his sons have the rep for loving hockey. One son was drafted. He lost out on buying the Sens and got a brush off from both Wang and the NJ Devils owner. I've yet to come across some credible source, who claims Peltz wanted to buy and flip those nhl teams.

There is a major difference between Peltz making an offer and LaFontaine: Peltz is a billionaire, able to afford to buy a pro team. LaFontain does not have those deep pockets and would have to be part of an ownership group.

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10-10-2012, 01:02 PM
  #434
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So because Wang was not interested in selling, Peltz's interest wasn't serious?

Peltz and his sons have the rep for loving hockey. One son was drafted. He lost out on buying the Sens and got a brush off from both Wang and the NJ Devils owner. I've yet to come across some credible source, who claims Peltz wanted to buy and flip those nhl teams.

There is a major difference between Peltz making an offer and LaFontaine: Peltz is a billionaire, able to afford to buy a pro team. LaFontain does not have those deep pockets and would have to be part of an ownership group.
I love hockey. My son plays for Cornell. I have a rich uncle. I'm serious that I can own NYI but won't because it's a bad investment and they have no arena deal. I would however look to make money in other areas via them. Like all the previous NYI owners did including Wang. Seriously. See how that goes. Things like flipping don't get reported or have sources. Too funny.

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10-10-2012, 01:12 PM
  #435
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So can anyone just say the most fundamental thing: it's not where....it's not the building....it's not the lack of choo-choos.

The product on ice for two decades has not sold because it's not worth the money. THREE YEARS fans spent on it. Three years. Why isn't the team profitable? It's gotta be the lack of toilets! The lack of falafel! Lack of tattoos! No official moving company!

I'm negative, yes, but I'll say this: if things stay the same with the arena not updated (too late! improvements have and continue to be made!) and the economy of LI sucking and no deal to sell, the team as it appears will be much, much better.

That means Kabanov, Poulin, Nilsson, Strome, Moulson, Reinhart, Hamonic, Ullstrom, Nelson, Lee, Persson, Cizikas, DeHaan, that guy Tavares.....they sell some pretty good hockey.

That means fans want to see them and pay.

That means money.

That means interest in NYI climbs, and looking at NJD, can you argue the two teams will be competing once again for tops in the NON-NYR market share? I can only hope, but if NYR goes downhill and NYI sees these kids and some help come in (I should stop there - Garth's job is safe), we could be the most exciting hockey team in the NY area (barring Buffalo's impressive climb)?

So we lost $4M, $8M and $12M in recent years because we didn't woo fans with our toilets and concourse amenities.....or we lst it because our team has S-U-C-K-E-D.

Well, I'll wager we'd be in the red if we have steady growth and success with 2/3rds of those prospects above I listed and that's even with Idiot Savant Charles Wang not selling.

Why? Because the fundamental rule of business:

Build a better mousetrap and....


Now imagine NVMC gets refurbished or replaced when the basic economic tenets of better product are in place.

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10-10-2012, 01:14 PM
  #436
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I love hockey. My son plays for Cornell. I have a rich uncle. I'm serious that I can own NYI but won't because it's a bad investment and they have no arena deal. I would however look to make money in other areas via them. Like all the previous NYI owners did including Wang. Seriously. See how that goes. Things like flipping don't get reported or have sources. Too funny.
You are in Lafontaine's shoes and your uncle in Peltz's

For several yrs, we kept hearing and reading, that no one local wanted to buy the isles, then came the published report about Peltz's offer and Wang's rejection.
We kept reading/hearing that time was running out, to get a local arena built before 2015. Now we have Barclay's execs. wooing Wang and Bettman publicly warming up to a potential Barclay's move.

One of the most often repeated, false statements, has been that Wang's bleeding money. The most recent articles from Forbes and the National Post have his loses down in the $4.m-$8m range the last 3 seasons. If Wang does get $5m-$15m in revenue sharing, we could see the isles break even or even recording a small profit.

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10-10-2012, 01:57 PM
  #437
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It doesn't matter how big the market is if nobody cares. It's getting close to nobody cares.... except for Rangers fans.

Some media market if you're on Hofstra radio. Some media market if you're being buried by the competitor who owns your TV rights.

Basically, nobody cares. A year of no hockey solidifies the fact that nobody cares.

Bettman isn't going to risk the appearance of his franchises having zero equity in favor of a one-time franchise fee. An Islanders franchise with no place to play, about which nobody cares, is worth junk.

He'll let them move.

Cheers,

Dan-o
Nobody cares because the team sucks. Just like they didn't care in Detroit in the 70s and early 80s when Det averaged 24 wins and 60 pts a year and missed the POs 9 times in 10 years in an era when practically everyone made the POs. Their avg. attendance was under 13k for 10 years. They drafted well, built a winning team and now sell out 20k a game in a market far less economically viable than the NYC-area.

The market isn't the problem. The lack of a quality product is why there is waning interest. A lockout isn't going to change that either way. If they start winning, that will change things.

As for equity, the cable deal alone guarantees the team has as much if not more equity value than half the US teams.

He won't let them move if it even gets to that point. Not a chance.

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10-10-2012, 02:08 PM
  #438
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Nobody cares because the team sucks. Just like they didn't care in Detroit in the 70s and early 80s when Det averaged 24 wins and 60 pts a year and missed the POs 9 times in 10 years in an era when practically everyone made the POs. Their avg. attendance was under 13k for 10 years. They drafted well, built a winning team and now sell out 20k a game in a market far less economically viable than the NYC-area.

The market isn't the problem. The lack of a quality product is why there is waning interest. A lockout isn't going to change that either way. If they start winning, that will change things.

As for equity, the cable deal alone guarantees the team has as much if not more equity value than half the US teams.

He won't let them move if it even gets to that point. Not a chance.
So what you're saying is the key to making money is to be good at what you're selling? How does Apple do it without ample toilets and luxury boxes on their Iphones? No choo-choo? (Apple also was a dead heap until the Internet boom and some well strategised changes combined with the elevation of their brand name to the level of superior quality - something NOT TO BE CONFUSED with Islander management!)

(yet!(I hope!))

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10-10-2012, 02:17 PM
  #439
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So what you're saying is the key to making money is to be good at what you're selling? How does Apple do it without ample toilets and luxury boxes on their Iphones? No choo-choo? (Apple also was a dead heap until the Internet boom and some well strategised changes combined with the elevation of their brand name to the level of superior quality - something NOT TO BE CONFUSED with Islander management!)

(yet!(I hope!))
Good analogy. Apple products are a joke. Yet they sell like hotcakes. But JKP has a point. The best way to sell your product as a sports franchise is to win. There are other ways, but winning is the easiest way to do it.

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10-10-2012, 02:27 PM
  #440
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Good analogy. Apple products are a joke. Yet they sell like hotcakes. But JKP has a point. The best way to sell your product as a sports franchise is to win. There are other ways, but winning is the easiest way to do it.
Not to get into an Apple discussion, but their products are far from a joke. They make the classiest, well built gadgets out there. The iPhone 5 is a masterpiece. I dare you to find a more well built cell phone out there. It's one of the reasons why Apple has become the biggest corporation of all time. Great products that are seamless and easy to use, itunes works seasmlessly with ipods/iphones, the app store is also seamless, and also a brilliant invention. They make products people want to use, trust me, use an Apple Product just once, and you'll be hooked, it's almost magical, and Apple fans are like a cult. Steve Jobs was a genius, maybe the best salesman of his generation.

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10-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #441
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Not to get into an Apple discussion, but their products are far from a joke. They make the classiest, well built gadgets out there. The iPhone 5 is a masterpiece. I dare you to find a more well built cell phone out there. It's one of the reasons why Apple has become the biggest corporation of all time. Great products that are seamless and easy to use, itunes works seasmlessly with ipods/iphones, the app store is also seamless, and also a brilliant invention. They make products people want to use, trust me, use an Apple Product just once, and you'll be hooked, it's almost magical, and Apple fans are like a cult. Steve Jobs was a genius, maybe the best salesman of his generation.
To each his own. And I will take back that they are a joke and wasn't singling out the iphone. I understand why people like it. Phones are limited anyways but if you get a good deal get what's comfortable then that's great. Typically what you're paying for you would expect more though. But most people are just happy with easy stuff like facebook and internet games. Easy sells. And lets not forget how 'cool' the brand is. If people would use a little bit more of their brains they might be able to save a little bit of money and still get the same practicality and much more functionality if that is important to them. Not calling people stupid, but I don't get the obsession with Apple and Steve Jobs when the products I choose to buy can do the same thing (and more) and cost half the price. I work in the IT field and would only recommend apple products to old women or little rich kids. All the execs and doctors at my job use iphone's and ipads and think they are the greatest invention in all the world because they cant screw them up. And they feel it's necessary to tell me that and try to sell them to me and ***** that they wont work on our windows based network. Then I look at their windows work PC's and see why. They have no clue how to manage a OS that allows flexibility and near limitless 3rd party support. Free does not mean free on the internet, people. I dont like products that tell me what I can and can not do and try to monopolize the technology market. I'm responsible enough not to spend the extra money on an apple product because it 'wont break'. Not saying Microsoft is the greatest company in the world either, but is definitely the lesser of two evils.

Sorry for the rant. That was not directed at you Scott. I guess if people feel about apple the way I feel about the Isles I can understand. But that would be strange. I'm sure this will be deleted unless someone can come up with away this applies to the CBA or lockout.


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10-10-2012, 04:17 PM
  #442
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Nobody cares because the team sucks.

As for equity, the cable deal alone guarantees the team has as much if not more equity value than half the US teams.

He won't let them move if it even gets to that point. Not a chance.
1. Yep. And the team won't not suck fast enough to save them by 2015. That's my argument.

2. The cable deal isn't enough if there's no place to play. IMO there is no owner interested in this team without an arena deal, and that includes Wang. There are two ways to compute equity: (i) by *net* profits + capital. Team has none to speak of other than its player rights + cable deal. Liabilities, on the other hand are legion. (ii) by demand for the company in the open market. The obvious way to maximize the perceived value of the company is by combining the portable assets (player rights) with the demand for franchises in areas where people care.

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.

3. I assume "he" is Bettman. I don't know why the dude is worthy of anyone's trust. However, Bettman has the responsibility to protect the equity of his franchises. The best way to avoid a collapse is to allow the team to move.

Unless, of course, there's a great secret deal we haven't heard about. Maybe the press with "report on it" tomorrow. I'll look forward to ignoring it.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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10-10-2012, 04:23 PM
  #443
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You are in Lafontaine's shoes and your uncle in Peltz's

For several yrs, we kept hearing and reading, that no one local wanted to buy the isles, then came the published report about Peltz's offer and Wang's rejection.
We kept reading/hearing that time was running out, to get a local arena built before 2015. Now we have Barclay's execs. wooing Wang and Bettman publicly warming up to a potential Barclay's move.

One of the most often repeated, false statements, has been that Wang's bleeding money. The most recent articles from Forbes and the National Post have his loses down in the $4.m-$8m range the last 3 seasons. If Wang does get $5m-$15m in revenue sharing, we could see the isles break even or even recording a small profit.
I just don't see NYI or NJD getting revenue sharing because of their already enormous cable TV deal and the TV market which classifies them as big market not small which is the revenue sharing criteria. It's not the NHL's fault that LI can't support a franchise financially and that it's run by a wacko who doesn't market it.

Dan-O and me and others have already mentioned how Brooklyn is the only real hope but Peltz "reports" don't mean much IMO.

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10-10-2012, 04:26 PM
  #444
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Nobody cares because the team sucks. Just like they didn't care in Detroit in the 70s and early 80s when Det averaged 24 wins and 60 pts a year and missed the POs 9 times in 10 years in an era when practically everyone made the POs. Their avg. attendance was under 13k for 10 years. They drafted well, built a winning team and now sell out 20k a game in a market far less economically viable than the NYC-area.

The market isn't the problem. The lack of a quality product is why there is waning interest. A lockout isn't going to change that either way. If they start winning, that will change things.As for equity, the cable deal alone guarantees the team has as much if not more equity value than half the US teams.

He won't let them move if it even gets to that point. Not a chance.
Can't win without revenue. LI doesn't have enough revenue. What happens if the prospects get good and it's time to pay them and there's not enough revenue?

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10-10-2012, 04:29 PM
  #445
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It doesn't matter how big the market is if nobody cares. It's getting close to nobody cares.... except for Rangers fans.

Some media market if you're on Hofstra radio. Some media market if you're being buried by the competitor who owns your TV rights.

Basically, nobody cares. A year of no hockey solidifies the fact that nobody cares.

Bettman isn't going to risk the appearance of his franchises having zero equity in favor of a one-time franchise fee. An Islanders franchise with no place to play, about which nobody cares, is worth junk.

He'll let them move.

Cheers,

Dan-o
True that nobody cares. Very true. I don't trust Bettman either. But fingers crossed that Barclay's Brooklyn Ratner steps up and changes the culture and philosophy ala Nets.

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10-10-2012, 06:20 PM
  #446
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So there is no way to make the Nassau Coliseum profitable. None. Impossible.

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10-10-2012, 07:45 PM
  #447
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2. The cable deal isn't enough if there's no place to play. IMO there is no owner interested in this team without an arena deal, and that includes Wang. There are two ways to compute equity: (i) by *net* profits + capital. Team has none to speak of other than its player rights + cable deal. Liabilities, on the other hand are legion. (ii) by demand for the company in the open market. The obvious way to maximize the perceived value of the company is by combining the portable assets (player rights) with the demand for franchises in areas where people care.



Unless, of course, there's a great secret deal we haven't heard about. Maybe the press with "report on it" tomorrow. I'll look forward to ignoring it.

Cheers,

Dan-o
So the new Barclays center is no place to play?

I guess fan feeling or intuition is a more credible source, then the press.

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10-11-2012, 08:48 AM
  #448
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Not to get into an Apple discussion, but their products are far from a joke. They make the classiest, well built gadgets out there. The iPhone 5 is a masterpiece. I dare you to find a more well built cell phone out there. It's one of the reasons why Apple has become the biggest corporation of all time. Great products that are seamless and easy to use, itunes works seasmlessly with ipods/iphones, the app store is also seamless, and also a brilliant invention. They make products people want to use, trust me, use an Apple Product just once, and you'll be hooked, it's almost magical, and Apple fans are like a cult. Steve Jobs was a genius, maybe the best salesman of his generation.
see thats all opinion. I would say that the Galaxy is 3 is a better phone. And for me i would be right. you say the iPhone is better and for you that is also right.
I do not like apple because they limit you and tell you what you can and cant do. That new GPS they put out well that was just a huge success huh ?
I have used apple products and i am far from hooked.

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10-11-2012, 10:19 AM
  #449
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So the new Barclays center is no place to play?

I guess fan feeling or intuition is a more credible source, then the press.
Barclays is fine as a short term solution, but only if something else is in place. It is a long term solution only if Ratner/Prokhorov buy the team.

BMD hopes that Ratner/Prokhorov step up. I hope so too. I think the best chance of this is a NYI team that shows progress over the next couple of years.

I probably don't need to tell you, because you're the #1 perfect media consumer, but media is NOT necessarily journalism. In this case, there is no reporting. There are press releases or missives sent to reporters or media outlets by whatever party who wants to get their message out. Why? Because the media DOESN'T CARE enough to spend money on real news coverage. What is the information value of these 'reports'? As BMD says, bupkis. I'm Jewish, but I prefer the more archaic term, humbug. BS also covers it. Capiche?

Cheers,

Dan-o

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10-11-2012, 02:51 PM
  #450
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see thats all opinion. I would say that the Galaxy is 3 is a better phone. And for me i would be right. you say the iPhone is better and for you that is also right.
I do not like apple because they limit you and tell you what you can and cant do. That new GPS they put out well that was just a huge success huh ?
I have used apple products and i am far from hooked.
I agree with some points you make. I agree with the closed-ness of Apple, I wish they were more open, BUT, I do love the ease of use and seamlessness of Apple products. I love how easy it is to have all of my music, videos and pics on the iPhone (yeah you can do that with other phones). I've had one since the original, and I'm waiting for my iPhone 5. It's my favorite gadget of all time, and the new one blows away its past versions. I think if there was a poll of professional gadget writers, probably 60% would vote for the iPhone 5 over the Galaxy 3. I loved the Galaxy 3 when I got to play with it, Andriod OS is pretty damned cool (I have a Nexus 7 Tablet, and love the thing to death). I even love the Galaxy 3 commercials making fun of the iPhone, they are hilarious. BUT, bottonm line is, every smart phone owes a debt to the iPhone, and wants to be the iPhone. How many times have you heard, "it's just like the iPhone". But it's not. people aren't lining up for days for the Galaxy 3, despite it's greatness.

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