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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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Old
10-17-2012, 08:12 PM
  #526
redbull
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
Look's like that's solved (105,000+). As far as loopholes and contracts are concerned, this is always a problem that's impossible to solve. There's only one elegant solution in a sports context: trust in the executive. If the players and Bettman, and Bettman and the owners had a good relationships, solutions can be hammered out on as things come up.

It's better to try to repair relationships than to labor to close loopholes.

It's like corrupt countries. Their laws don't have more loopholes than ours. It's just that people don't respect the authorities, and the authorities don't respect the people.
I wonder if there's any merit in having the CBA "re-opened" by either party after year 1 or 2 for example, to BOTH address potential loopholes that arise? If it were possible to ensure that another work stoppage wouldn't happen, I want to believe it's in the interest of BOTH parties to address concerns.

The sad truth is, they aren't partners. They both feel they have to "win" the deal and if it means screwing the fans, so be it.

If both parties could see that they need one another and collectively work on a fair agreement, I don't see why a work stoppage should ever be needed, especially with increasing revenues and increasing salaries. On some level, it's absurd and embarrassing.


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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
The proposed cap ceiling is $59m. That would make the floor $43m.


Below is a link to actual payroll,without the bonuses. The isles are just above $41m.

http://capgeek.com/islanders/
that's assuming the floor-celing ratio hasn't changed. Do we know that it has (been proposed, anyway)?

My concern is never with the CBA, but in the spirit of the owner in regards to spending. Just like they need to prevent Sather, Burke, others from overspending, they need to prevent Wang for underspending. Loopholes kill both ways and Wang will definitely ensure Snow finds a way to spend as little as possible.

#newarenaandnewowner2k15please

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10-17-2012, 08:45 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I



that's assuming the floor-celing ratio hasn't changed. Do we know that it has (been proposed, anyway)?

My concern is never with the CBA, but in the spirit of the owner in regards to spending. Just like they need to prevent Sather, Burke, others from overspending, they need to prevent Wang for underspending. Loopholes kill both ways and Wang will definitely ensure Snow finds a way to spend as little as possible.

#newarenaandnewowner2k15please
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...hlpa/?site=www
Floor 54.2 reduced to 43.9

Midpoint 62.2 reduced to 51.9

Ceiling 70.2 reduced to 59.9


also, the league is targeting cap cheaters.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...GlvbnM-;_ylv=3

Death to salary cap cheaters! NHL proposal targets circumvention, punishes teams
By Greg Wyshynski | Puck Daddy – 8 hours ago


No more using likely fat ELC and over 35 contracts to reach the cap floor.
http://www.lighthousehockey.com/2012...ders?ref=yahoo
NHL CBA Proposal: How It Would Affect the New York Islanders
By Dominik on Oct 17, 6:30a
NEW: Payroll Lower Limit must be satisfied without performance bonuses

Ahem. No more cap mules. At least not the kind who get you to the floor simply by virtue of bonuses unlikely to be achieved (Doug Weight on one end, Nino Niederreiter on the other).

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10-17-2012, 08:51 PM
  #528
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What is snow and Wang going to do about this now. In the new CBA IT SAYS - Payroll Lower Limit must be satisfied without performance bonuses. Love to see how they get around this one. This makes me happy now that Wang as to spend his millions on is team.
I think the $2 million gap between our actual payroll and our cap hit would no longer be a problem when the league is writing us a $15-$18 million revenue sharing check.

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I dislike this part of the proposal. I know a lot of execs, fans and some media have complained about the cap slowing down the number of trades, but I like gms having to clear out salary and fit player X onto their roster.
It could work out great for us. I'm not sure if they tethered cash changing hands to the cap hits though, the NHL's description is too vague. If Cap Hit and Salary aren't tethered (For example, "We're giving you all of Player X, and his entire cap hit. But we'll throw in some cash. It equals his entire salary") we are golden.

Cap Space is a valuable commodity. This aspect of the CBA gives the Islanders trade value out of thin air.

Let's say there's a guy who signed a 7-year deal for $6 million a season. No longer an elite player as he enters year five. But still a pretty good one. He'd command about $3 million on the open market now. He'd be too expensive for our team, but if his team needs cap space and wants to pay him to go away, they could deal him to us, with the cash to pay most his salary just to clear his cap hit. We'd give up virtually nothing (5th rounder).

Hell, we could trade a 5th rounder for an Over Price Player, His Remaining Salary in Cash, and a 1st Round Pick if a team desperately needed someone off the books.

We could add $2 million in actual payroll, get four legitimately good hockey players and a plethora of draft picks for nothing but placing $16 million in phantom cap hits on our ledger.

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10-17-2012, 09:25 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post

It could work out great for us. I'm not sure if they tethered cash changing hands to the cap hits though, the NHL's description is too vague. If Cap Hit and Salary aren't tethered (For example, "We're giving you all of Player X, and his entire cap hit. But we'll throw in some cash. It equals his entire salary") we are golden.

Cap Space is a valuable commodity. This aspect of the CBA gives the Islanders trade value out of thin air.

Let's say there's a guy who signed a 7-year deal for $6 million a season. No longer an elite player as he enters year five. But still a pretty good one. He'd command about $3 million on the open market now. He'd be too expensive for our team, but if his team needs cap space and wants to pay him to go away, they could deal him to us, with the cash to pay most his salary just to clear his cap hit. We'd give up virtually nothing (5th rounder).

Hell, we could trade a 5th rounder for an Over Price Player, His Remaining Salary in Cash, and a 1st Round Pick if a team desperately needed someone off the books.

We could add $2 million in actual payroll, get four legitimately good hockey players and a plethora of draft picks for nothing but placing $16 million in phantom cap hits on our ledger.
I can't get behind cash being exchanged, a luxury tax, selling cap space or selling draft picks. All of these have been suggested at different points in the last few months and imo all of them weaken a cap system, which is in place to level the playing field.

I see this as a sop to the deep pocketed teams, a way to give them a spending advantage.

We are more likely to see crap players like Komi+ $4m in cash for a pick, then see legitimately good hockey players + cash for their salaries traded.

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10-18-2012, 01:22 AM
  #530
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Just because teams won't be forced to move players for the 2012-13 season, assuming we have one and that the grace period is without any kind of penalty, doesn't mean that they won't.

There are handful of teams near the top of the former cap that are going to be exposed by the new cap even after growth. Look at some of the top-payroll teams on Capgeek and see what their 2013-14 rosters already look like. Too many dollars on too few players. Even after some obvious subtractions, you're going to see some movement. I'll be shocked if you don't see some movement early.

For the team that the Islanders are forced to put on the ice in their current situation, this CBA could end up being a forced boost that the current squad really could use. Considering how low our actual payroll has been in the past, we should now be subject to keeping payroll above a minimum.

Don't be shocked if they add a percentage below the cap due to LTIR, as well. Understand that according to the current "cap math", unless they change the wording, LTIR is not included in such math.

So that $4.5 million for DiPietro? We may need to make that (or some of it) up if Ricky can't make it through the season. I'm not really putting too much faith into what I'm rolling around my head for now though; we'll wait and see what eventually gets signed and snoop through that CBA for exactly what the Islanders may be forced to spend (including the revenue sharing they receive. For all we know, the final agreement may force teams to apply revenue sharing to payroll in some fashion.)

,
Mitch

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10-18-2012, 07:23 AM
  #531
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I'm really not liking the comments by Fehr and some of the players about the NHL's latest offer. The comments are very negative and untrusting. Fehr is going to cause this lockout to go on longer or for the season to be cancelled all together. My guess is best case, The Winter Classic will be the first game of the season, worst case, don't even wanna talk about it. Unless this is all postering on the NHLPA's side and most like the deal and the PA is just trying to squeeze a little more from the owners the next few days. Today is the most important day of the lockout, and color me worried and not confident.

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10-18-2012, 09:27 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
I'm really not liking the comments by Fehr and some of the players about the NHL's latest offer. The comments are very negative and untrusting. Fehr is going to cause this lockout to go on longer or for the season to be cancelled all together. My guess is best case, The Winter Classic will be the first game of the season, worst case, don't even wanna talk about it. Unless this is all postering on the NHLPA's side and most like the deal and the PA is just trying to squeeze a little more from the owners the next few days. Today is the most important day of the lockout, and color me worried and not confident.
Wow, really? Fehr's communication to the players contains absolutely nothing unexpected. Hell, I could have written it (and practically have in this thread). The idea that it would shock the NHL and deter upcoming talks is silly.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=407542

Hasn't it been obvious for some time that this has been a battle of wills? If the sides talk productively, it's because they're both feeling their losses.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
10-18-2012, 09:55 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
I'm really not liking the comments by Fehr and some of the players about the NHL's latest offer. The comments are very negative and untrusting. Fehr is going to cause this lockout to go on longer or for the season to be cancelled all together. My guess is best case, The Winter Classic will be the first game of the season, worst case, don't even wanna talk about it. Unless this is all postering on the NHLPA's side and most like the deal and the PA is just trying to squeeze a little more from the owners the next few days. Today is the most important day of the lockout, and color me worried and not confident.
Couldn't be more true. Today is the day. One meeting at 1:00 in Toronto today will decide whether we are playing hockey in a few weeks or missing an entire season. I really believe it's one or the other with no middle ground. Why? Because if the PA works off of the offer the league gave them the other day and just tries to tweak it, it will get done. If they outright reject it and go back to what they believe the economic model should be, talks will break off completely.

Personally, I have zero faith that anything will get done. I've seen this before. Just 7 years ago. We had a day like Tuesday where everything seemed great and then... disappointment. How many times did that happen in 2004? A ton. I remember hearing everything from secret midnight meetings in NYC to the league actually drawing up a 30 game schedule in late January/early February to salvage a short season at the last minute. Nothing happened. We were all left disappointed and angry.

I can't foresee anything different happening this time simply because of the parties involved (Fehr more than Bettman). This is unfortunately not about what is best for the league and players at this point. It's about two ego-maniacs who don't want to seem like the weak one who caved. That to me makes this so much worse and almost makes me want to shun the sport completely. It's disgusting.

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10-18-2012, 10:36 AM
  #534
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Lets see what goes down today. This morning on NHL radio they interviewed one or two players and it seems like they dont want 50/50.
They say was saying something like 50/50 is us losing 12% or something
I think they are going to counter with something like 52 48 in there favor


Last edited by Fantom: 10-18-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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10-18-2012, 11:39 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
Wow, really? Fehr's communication to the players contains absolutely nothing unexpected. Hell, I could have written it (and practically have in this thread). The idea that it would shock the NHL and deter upcoming talks is silly.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=407542

Hasn't it been obvious for some time that this has been a battle of wills? If the sides talk productively, it's because they're both feeling their losses.

Cheers,

Dan-o
Exactly. It's all part of the negotiation process. You would think that NHL fans would be more savvy by now - given the amount of times we've been through this.

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10-18-2012, 12:03 PM
  #536
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Exactly. It's all part of the negotiation process. You would think that NHL fans would be more savvy by now - given the amount of times we've been through this.
It really has nothing to do with being savvy, and more to do with being greedy. After being given a 57% (owners) 43% (Players) offer from the owners, a 50/50 offer seems like something the players would have proposed not the owners. That being said, the players stand to lose more money with a lost season, than by accepting this offer. Today is doomsday. the players are being led to their own destruction, and they are too stupid to realize it. Good luck with those NHLPA allstar games and over in Europe.

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10-18-2012, 12:20 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Fantom View Post
Lets see what goes down today. This morning on NHL radio they interviewed one or two players and it seems like they dont want 50/50.
They say was saying something like 50/50 is us losing 12% or something
I think they are going to counter with something like 52 48 in there favor
I could actually see the season being locked out for good w/a 52 (players) 48(owners) counter-offer. I'd be shocked if the owners come close to accepting that. No professional sport has more than a 50-50 split in favor of the players. If something isn't finalized by 10/25, the season ends, or I wouldn't be surprised by replacement players. The owners will still make money that way.

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10-18-2012, 12:23 PM
  #538
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It really has nothing to do with being savvy, and more to do with being greedy. After being given a 57% (owners) 43% (Players) offer from the owners, a 50/50 offer seems like something the players would have proposed not the owners. That being said, the players stand to lose more money with a lost season, than by accepting this offer. Today is doomsday. the players are being led to their own destruction, and they are too stupid to realize it. Good luck with those NHLPA allstar games and over in Europe.
While you are correct from the standpoint of the players being better off financially by playing... there is a common misconception that players are losing money. Even I didn't think of it this way until listening to NHL home ice on XM last night. The players don't actually "lose" money. Ever. The only group that "loses" money are the owners. The players might make less but they are in no danger of losing money. Everyone uses this terminology but I just thought I would word it how I heard it last night which is definitely how we should be looking at this.

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10-18-2012, 12:27 PM
  #539
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While you are correct from the standpoint of the players being better off financially by playing... there is a common misconception that players are losing money. Even I didn't think of it this way until listening to NHL home ice on XM last night. The players don't actually "lose" money. Ever. The only group that "loses" money are the owners. The players might make less but they are in no danger of losing money. Everyone uses this terminology but I just thought I would word it how I heard it last night which is definitely how we should be looking at this.
The Players aren't looking at it, or talking about it that way. Fehr says the players will LOSE 1.6billion over the life of the new offer.

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10-18-2012, 12:44 PM
  #540
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I could actually see the season being locked out for good w/a 52 (players) 48(owners) counter-offer. I'd be shocked if the owners come close to accepting that. No professional sport has more than a 50-50 split in favor of the players. If something isn't finalized by 10/25, the season ends, or I wouldn't be surprised by replacement players. The owners will still make money that way.

I agree with you. I just think the players will not want it. Unless they ask for something else and they get it IE longer than 5 year deals maybe etc

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10-18-2012, 12:46 PM
  #541
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I could actually see the season being locked out for good w/a 52 (players) 48(owners) counter-offer. I'd be shocked if the owners come close to accepting that. No professional sport has more than a 50-50 split in favor of the players. If something isn't finalized by 10/25, the season ends, or I wouldn't be surprised by replacement players. The owners will still make money that way.
Arbitrary deadline followed by far-fetched speculation.

Nobody will use replacement players, period.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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10-18-2012, 12:57 PM
  #542
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Arbitrary deadline followed by far-fetched speculation.

Nobody will use replacement players, period.

Cheers,

Dan-o
Exactly. The lockout went longer in '95 and they still got a deal done in time to salvage half the season. 10/25 may be the deadline to play all 82 games, but some semblance of a season can still be had after that date.

And seriously, who the hell would watch replacement players? I'm having a hard enough time watching AHL games, and thats following players that will hopefully be in the NHL one day. Why would I want to watch ECHL hacks in Islanders jerseys?

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10-18-2012, 01:17 PM
  #543
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Exactly. The lockout went longer in '95 and they still got a deal done in time to salvage half the season. 10/25 may be the deadline to play all 82 games, but some semblance of a season can still be had after that date.

And seriously, who the hell would watch replacement players? I'm having a hard enough time watching AHL games, and thats following players that will hopefully be in the NHL one day. Why would I want to watch ECHL hacks in Islanders jerseys?
Wait, there is difference!?

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10-18-2012, 01:17 PM
  #544
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meeting pushed back from 1pm to 2:30pm

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10-18-2012, 01:18 PM
  #545
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Exactly. The lockout went longer in '95 and they still got a deal done in time to salvage half the season. 10/25 may be the deadline to play all 82 games, but some semblance of a season can still be had after that date.

And seriously, who the hell would watch replacement players? I'm having a hard enough time watching AHL games, and thats following players that will hopefully be in the NHL one day. Why would I want to watch ECHL hacks in Islanders jerseys?
Because they would probably be more productive than the actual NHL players wearing Islanders jerseys.

Sorry... it was right there. I had to.

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10-18-2012, 01:24 PM
  #546
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If the average NHL player makes $2,400,000 this year, he is losing $29,268.30 per game lost.

The approximately 700 players in the league are losing $20,487,810 in total per game not played.

If the entire year is lost, that is a total salary lost of $1,680,000,420 by the players. That's more than ONE AND A HALF BILLION lost in ONE year.

I heard Glenn Healy on HNIC Radio yesterday saying that the players are not getting involved in the contract negotiation (except for Ron Hainsey) as deeply as they did the last time around. Hopefully they will do the math and realize what the lockout is costing them. The players should jump at the chance to play 82 games this season.

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10-18-2012, 01:27 PM
  #547
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Because they would probably be more productive than the actual NHL players wearing Islanders jerseys.

Sorry... it was right there. I had to.
I know, it's ok. I realized what I wrote just after I clicked submit and just figured I'd let everyone have their fun.

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10-18-2012, 01:28 PM
  #548
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If the average NHL player makes $2,400,000 this year, he is losing $29,268.30 per game lost.

The approximately 700 players in the league are losing $20,487,810 in total per game not played.

If the entire year is lost, that is a total salary lost of $1,680,000,420 by the players. That's more than ONE AND A HALF BILLION lost in ONE year.

I heard Glenn Healy on HNIC Radio yesterday saying that the players are not getting involved in the contract negotiation (except for Ron Hainsey) as deeply as they did the last time around. Hopefully they will do the math and realize what the lockout is costing them. The players should jump at the chance to play 82 games this season.
Stop looking at things logically! There is no room for common sense when it comes to CBA talk!

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10-18-2012, 01:41 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
It really has nothing to do with being savvy, and more to do with being greedy. After being given a 57% (owners) 43% (Players) offer from the owners, a 50/50 offer seems like something the players would have proposed not the owners. That being said, the players stand to lose more money with a lost season, than by accepting this offer. Today is doomsday. the players are being led to their own destruction, and they are too stupid to realize it. Good luck with those NHLPA allstar games and over in Europe.
Of course the players will not accept this offer. No one (most certainly not the owners) expect them too. It's called negotiating. The NHL and NHLPA will holler and yell superlatives that will get the fans all up in arms. Relax people, it's all part of the game. Both sides are trying to squeeze as much as possible out of the other.

Collective Bargaining 101.

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10-18-2012, 02:29 PM
  #550
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Just read Niklas Backstrom is flying to Russia to join the KHL later tonight. I've got to believe he has friends who are close to the situation with the CBA. I might be reading too much into it, but the timing of this doesn't look good for an agreement later today.

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