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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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Old
10-18-2012, 02:05 PM
  #551
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Originally Posted by Tavares2Hall View Post
Just read Niklas Backstrom is flying to Russia to join the KHL later tonight. I've got to believe he has friends who are close to the situation with the CBA. I might be reading too much into it, but the timing of this doesn't look good for an agreement later today.
An agreement being reached today is extremely unlikely in my opinion. There will be a counter proposal by the union that will have to be mulled over by the league for a day or two.

I expect a few more proposals going back and forth before a deal is reached.

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10-18-2012, 02:13 PM
  #552
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Yawn... Wake me up after the owners have crushed the players and they jettison Fehr because they're losing their cushy, overpaid jobs.

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10-18-2012, 02:36 PM
  #553
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Yawn... Wake me up after the owners have crushed the players and they jettison Fehr because they're losing their cushy, overpaid jobs.
You might be asleep for awhile....by the looks of it, they're actually negotiating and possibly reaching a compromise (we can hope anyway). Sorry to disappoint you.

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10-18-2012, 03:10 PM
  #554
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You might be asleep for awhile....by the looks of it, they're actually negotiating and possibly reaching a compromise (we can hope anyway). Sorry to disappoint you.
^
You put too much faith in Fehr/NHLPA

NHLPA destroyed all the progress and NHL season is not happening

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10-18-2012, 03:14 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
^
You put too much faith in Fehr/NHLPA

NHLPA destroyed all the progress and NHL season is not happening
Yup....season is toast. Eff the players....hire scabs! I am sure Randy Wood would love to don the blue and orange again.

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10-18-2012, 03:17 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
^
You put too much faith in Fehr/NHLPA

NHLPA destroyed all the progress and NHL season is not happening
Agree 100%. I stated last night I didn't like the comments I was hearing from the players and Fehr. I stated that I felt BEST case scenario the season starts at The Winter Classic, worst case, no season (most likely) THEN, the ****ing media lies and states the PA is coming in with 4 offers BASED on the 50-50 offer of the Owners. Where the **** did that come from, such ****ing mis-information, I think I'm more pissed about about that than anything, it gave everyone false hope. I hope whoever came out with that info dies in a horrible car crash (WITH FEHR).

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Old
10-18-2012, 03:22 PM
  #557
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I have to say, at the start of this whole CBA thing, I was entirely on the players' side this time around, but right now my feeling has completely changed. The league proposed a 50-50 split AND no salary rollback AND even are ready to allow teams to spend more than 10 million over the cap this season to help get back under the salary cap. WHAT THE HECK DO THESE PLAYERS EXPECT???!!!! They are not NFL players, they are not MLB players, do they not get that 99% of this country does not give a crap about them?

Honestly, they should be more than happy with what they already make while playing a second rate sport (I love hockey, but lets face it, that is what it is) in this country.

If you look around the various message boards and hockey websites and news stories, even the biggest fans are starting to say they dont care anymore that they dont even mind because they get to keep more money in their wallet and use it for something else.

I seriously cannot believe how selfish these players are being and honestly i hope when they come back, they are playing to booing crowds and empty arenas from the loyal people who are paying their bloated salaries.

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10-18-2012, 03:30 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by Satan'sIsland81 View Post
I have to say, at the start of this whole CBA thing, I was entirely on the players' side this time around, but right now my feeling has completely changed. The league proposed a 50-50 split AND no salary rollback AND even are ready to allow teams to spend more than 10 million over the cap this season to help get back under the salary cap. WHAT THE HECK DO THESE PLAYERS EXPECT???!!!! They are not NFL players, they are not MLB players, do they not get that 99% of this country does not give a crap about them?
^^^
Amen to this.

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Old
10-18-2012, 03:39 PM
  #559
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Well... color me shocked.

Maybe everyone will learn now. Or at least try to remember 2004-05. Media mis-information was a daily occurrence. Just flat out lies really. Anyone who actually listens to what ANY media person has to say deserves any disappointment they feel when things go to ****.

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10-18-2012, 04:39 PM
  #560
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I'm not sure if anyone bothered to look at my math from a few pages back, but it pretty much showed how much the players stand to lose from simply a chunk of one season.

Whether it's a 6-year deal or a 7-year deal, by 40-50 games lost the players will have lost the equivalent of 4% of HRR over the entire lifetime of the new CBA. (This is with me figuring out a 7-year deal on its own, and a 6-year deal with some kind of bump in revenues for expansion.)

The question to me is this: How much does the NHLPA really think they can gain in 40-50 games? Or does the NHLPA not care about the current membership as much as it does about a lasting legacy? If the NHLPA only cares about a lasting legacy of labor peace and "fairness", a 6-year or 7-year deal, no matter how "fair" it is, doesn't guarantee that peace into perpetuity. Not every NHLPA member is affected equally, either. The current membership, with variations within the membership, need to fully understand how much they're truly risking. Time doesn't stop for the negotiations - NHL games that are lost forever are never going to be earned back.

I'm not suggesting the players simply take the latest offer, but they had to come close and speak in the same terms. (If we ever see the offers, we'll can judge if they truly have.) However, if the NHLPA's offers really haven't come close to the NHL's offer, then the players are literally shooting themselves in the pocket. Pretty much 10-13 games is 1% of HRR over a lifetime of any reasonable deal. The NHLPA's ability to make a reasonable deal for its members decreases quickly with time.

They players are idiots if they don't get the back and forth in similar terms going soon. They may feel that they've gotten the NHL to negotiation with itself, but soon the NHLPA will be negotiating with time, and time doesn't tend to stop for us mortals.

,
Mitch

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Old
10-18-2012, 04:52 PM
  #561
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mitchy, I've been saying this for months. The players cannot possibly win this. The owners blew up an entire year last time and the fans came back without a blip.

The owners can afford to play the long game. Their value is assured and their teams are timeless.

The players can only earn money for a very short period of time and to sacrifice that for the greed they are exhibiting is mind-numbingly stupid, as your math points out.

And for the 40% of players making less than a $1M, who maybe get to play 3 or 4 seasons to bank some money, this really kicks them in the nuts the most. Crosby doesn't care, he's got lots.

At some point, I expect the lunchpail members to revolt against Fehr and the rich elite and the union will fracture. The owners will just sit back and wait. Their last proposal bought them all the PR cover they need to wait it out indefinitely.

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10-18-2012, 04:57 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
I'm not sure if anyone bothered to look at my math from a few pages back, but it pretty much showed how much the players stand to lose from simply a chunk of one season.

Whether it's a 6-year deal or a 7-year deal, by 40-50 games lost the players will have lost the equivalent of 4% of HRR over the entire lifetime of the new CBA. (This is with me figuring out a 7-year deal on its own, and a 6-year deal with some kind of bump in revenues for expansion.)

The question to me is this: How much does the NHLPA really think they can gain in 40-50 games? Or does the NHLPA not care about the current membership as much as it does about a lasting legacy? If the NHLPA only cares about a lasting legacy of labor peace and "fairness", a 6-year or 7-year deal, no matter how "fair" it is, doesn't guarantee that peace into perpetuity. Not every NHLPA member is affected equally, either. The current membership, with variations within the membership, need to fully understand how much they're truly risking. Time doesn't stop for the negotiations - NHL games that are lost forever are never going to be earned back.

I'm not suggesting the players simply take the latest offer, but they had to come close and speak in the same terms. (If we ever see the offers, we'll can judge if they truly have.) However, if the NHLPA's offers really haven't come close to the NHL's offer, then the players are literally shooting themselves in the pocket. Pretty much 10-13 games is 1% of HRR over a lifetime of any reasonable deal. The NHLPA's ability to make a reasonable deal for its members decreases quickly with time.

They players are idiots if they don't get the back and forth in similar terms going soon. They may feel that they've gotten the NHL to negotiation with itself, but soon the NHLPA will be negotiating with time, and time doesn't tend to stop for us mortals.

,
Mitch
I think most of the players are pretty ignorant about how much they stand to lose. None of the players playing today will "win" even if the players get a huge "win" after lets say December. All this is being driven by egos up top brainwashing the players.

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10-18-2012, 05:01 PM
  #563
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mitchy, I've been saying this for months. The players cannot possibly win this. The owners blew up an entire year last time and the fans came back without a blip.

The owners can afford to play the long game. Their value is assured and their teams are timeless.

The players can only earn money for a very short period of time and to sacrifice that for the greed they are exhibiting is mind-numbingly stupid, as your math points out.

And for the 40% of players making less than a $1M, who maybe get to play 3 or 4 seasons to bank some money, this really kicks them in the nuts the most. Crosby doesn't care, he's got lots.

At some point, I expect the lunchpail members to revolt against Fehr and the rich elite and the union will fracture. The owners will just sit back and wait. Their last proposal bought them all the PR cover they need to wait it out indefinitely.
I agree. The players have very little chance of winning this and a much shorter supply of oxygen. These people are billionaires for a reason. We are about to cross the threshold, so they should be ready to sign the best deal that is on the table at that point. Life is unfair. Sorry, millionaires.

On a side note since you made this point as well, I am an Isles fan and will support any player that wears the orange and blue, regardless of the size of their paychecks or union membership. Fan loyalty should be to the crest on the front of the jersey and not the name on the back. If they wont play by their rules, find someone who will. NHL>PAHL

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10-18-2012, 05:05 PM
  #564
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mitchy, I've been saying this for months. The players cannot possibly win this. The owners blew up an entire year last time and the fans came back without a blip.

The owners can afford to play the long game. Their value is assured and their teams are timeless.

The players can only earn money for a very short period of time and to sacrifice that for the greed they are exhibiting is mind-numbingly stupid, as your math points out.

And for the 40% of players making less than a $1M, who maybe get to play 3 or 4 seasons to bank some money, this really kicks them in the nuts the most. Crosby doesn't care, he's got lots.

At some point, I expect the lunchpail members to revolt against Fehr and the rich elite and the union will fracture. The owners will just sit back and wait. Their last proposal bought them all the PR cover they need to wait it out indefinitely.
I'm not sure the owners want to lose a season and the momentum that sports seems to have, but they're not going to play it on the player's terms. At the end of the day, it is those that have less in the NHLPA that will suffer the most from a prolonged lockout.

I'm glad you mentioned the lunchpailers, because losing 25% of an NHL career should cut heavily into their entire lifetime of earnings. The less a player plays, the more each game is worth to them. Not just for their lifetime earnings, but it's literally cutting down on the amount of games they get to play in the NHL. It's a small portion of their dream is being hacked away. For the guy who may only get one shot to make some noise before a rookie or free agent takes their place, this year could mean everything to them.

I'm with you, JKP. If the players think they can go toe-to-toe with the owners, they'll soon realize they're missing toes that they'll never grow back.

...errr, and not every player has extra toes handy (footy?), OK, I'll stop while I'm way behind. The players might think of doing the same before they get to that point.

,
Mitch

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10-18-2012, 05:17 PM
  #565
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I think most of the players are pretty ignorant about how much they stand to lose. None of the players playing today will "win" even if the players get a huge "win" after lets say December. All this is being driven by egos up top brainwashing the players.
That's really the sad state of affairs if it comes to that. Most of the players will end up as the biggest losers in this. The players that play the least and make the least stand to lose the most (and quickly.)

Once games start erasing, the NHLPA should be in desperation mode, but will they be? I agree about the egos at the top, those guys don't tend to want to just swallow their pride and take a deal for the betterment of their constituents. It should make some wonder whose best interest is really being looked out for.

Solidarity at any cost? For what? For some future gain? A deal isn't being made forever, it's being made over a short period of each player's lifetime. Each player's playing lifetime is more likely to last through just this one CBA than through multiple agreements. Do enough of them realize that? I hope so, because that's what is going to end the lockout and have the NHLPA move quickly towards working near the NHL's latest proposal.

,
Mitch

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10-18-2012, 05:57 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
^
You put too much faith in Fehr/NHLPA

NHLPA destroyed all the progress and NHL season is not happening
But it's not about one side destroying another despite how ridiculous some posters on these boards tend to be. It's about getting fair deal for both sides. No side should feel like they outright won. Anyone who expects the players to just roll over because the big bad owners are making their demands are kidding themselves.

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10-18-2012, 06:04 PM
  #567
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This is masterful posturing.

I'm very confident a deal will get done, now more than ever.

The solidarity the players show is orchestrated, very well too. I don't think for a minute that Fehr and the players know they are going to "win" anything here. This is just a matter of forcing the owners to give more than they wanted to and yes, games will be lost this year.

My better judgment tells me these men are too smart to let their ego truly make many people lose millions of dollars on another lockout.

I think they will talk again and get to a deal within the next month, if not sooner.

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10-18-2012, 06:43 PM
  #568
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someone made the point on the business board, along the lines of:

"i'm going to find it very hard to cheer for a lot of these players with how absolutely ****ing stupid they are acting on twitter"


totally agree, they are just the stupidest people in the world thinking they are worth more than the NBA or NFL. Fehr kept going on and on about the last time the lockout was going on, message to fehr: get the **** over it, stop acting as if there is some grand revenge here. The owners presented a fair deal, make some adjustments. Jesus ****ing christ, the players deserve all the **** they are getting with their attitudes.

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10-18-2012, 07:13 PM
  #569
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So much for any positive or forward momentum to get this thing settled.

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10-18-2012, 07:51 PM
  #570
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This is masterful posturing.

I'm very confident a deal will get done, now more than ever.

The solidarity the players show is orchestrated, very well too. I don't think for a minute that Fehr and the players know they are going to "win" anything here. This is just a matter of forcing the owners to give more than they wanted to and yes, games will be lost this year.

My better judgment tells me these men are too smart to let their ego truly make many people lose millions of dollars on another lockout.

I think they will talk again and get to a deal within the next month, if not sooner.
i certainly hope you are right. if the players think that the longer they wait the more they will gain, they are in for a rude awakening.

i am pretty pissed though. after the last lockout i didnt watch hockey for 4 years. although this time around, i am more into hockey then i was before the last lockout.

i think that next time i go to a game, im buying tickets on stubhub (no money goes to the nhl), parking nearby (not in the lot) and im not buying anything from concessions. 0$ goes to either side. ******* em

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10-18-2012, 08:42 PM
  #571
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And that, folks, is how a season is lost and if you go back to what I posted about this offer by the NHL I pretty much knew that if the players didn't accept this the season was done. Glad it is there in black and white for me to marvel over, lol. I didn't feel there was truly media misinformation this time around. Some sites still reported the facts. If you rely on just one media outlet you will never get the whole picture anyway. That is why I read from many different sites.

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10-18-2012, 08:44 PM
  #572
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i certainly hope you are right. if the players think that the longer they wait the more they will gain, they are in for a rude awakening.

i am pretty pissed though. after the last lockout i didnt watch hockey for 4 years. although this time around, i am more into hockey then i was before the last lockout.

i think that next time i go to a game, im buying tickets on stubhub (no money goes to the nhl), parking nearby (not in the lot) and im not buying anything from concessions. 0$ goes to either side. ******* em
LMAO, whomever bough the original tickets, that money went to the NHL. Did you seriously just type that?

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10-18-2012, 09:40 PM
  #573
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mitchy, I've been saying this for months. The players cannot possibly win this. The owners blew up an entire year last time and the fans came back without a blip.

The owners can afford to play the long game. Their value is assured and their teams are timeless.

The players can only earn money for a very short period of time and to sacrifice that for the greed they are exhibiting is mind-numbingly stupid, as your math points out.

And for the 40% of players making less than a $1M, who maybe get to play 3 or 4 seasons to bank some money, this really kicks them in the nuts the most. Crosby doesn't care, he's got lots.

At some point, I expect the lunchpail members to revolt against Fehr and the rich elite and the union will fracture. The owners will just sit back and wait. Their last proposal bought them all the PR cover they need to wait it out indefinitely.
The league just orchestrated a major PR coup this week with that deal. In the general public, it was 50/50 and a full season, how do the players reject that. Notice how the tone has changed from the PA that the league was locking out the players, the players want to play under the "existing agreement" to "we don't like the owners latest deal" which in the public is being received as fair and u get a full season.

For all the crap Bettman takes, he has grown the league revenue under his watch from 400 million to close to 3 BILLION. That's pretty astounding. Its made fourth liners multi-millionaires on guaranteed contracts and expanded the friggin player pool with expansion. All tr league is asking for, technically, is to control expenses (overhead) to actually realize the revenue. Same thing any smart sustainable business does.

The players hedged a bet the league wouldn't dare do another lockout based on missing a season years. Lost that one. The players know how much revenue the league generates in the holiday season and, now with the winter classic. The league is now quietly pushing the pendelum in that direction as leverage. A major
Of chunk of shared revenue could be lost.


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10-18-2012, 10:30 PM
  #574
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The league just orchestrated a major PR coup this week with that deal. In the general public, it was 50/50 and a full season, how do the players reject that. Notice how the tone has changed from the PA that the league was locking out the players, the players want to play under the "existing agreement" to "we don't like the owners latest deal" which in the public is being received as fair and u get a full season.

For all the crap Bettman takes, he has grown the league revenue under his watch from 400 million to close to 3 BILLION. That's pretty astounding. Its made fourth liners multi-millionaires on guaranteed contracts and expanded the friggin player pool with expansion. All tr league is asking for, technically, is to control expenses (overhead) to actually realize the revenue. Same thing any smart sustainable business does.

The players hedged a bet the league wouldn't dare do another lockout based on missing a season years. Lost that one. The players know how much revenue the league generates in the holiday season and, now with the winter classic. The league is now quietly pushing the pendelum in that direction as leverage. A major
Of chunk of shared revenue could be lost.

And everyone HAS TO KNOW THIS, including Fehr AND Bettman and the players.

That's why I'm CONVINCED this is posturing ONLY. That even the Twitter stuff is somewhat orchestrated by Fehr.

Bettman's PR play this week was perfect. That "study" they did, where they hired the republican dude to help their PR (not sure if that played into this) and the 50/50 message, the "full season" message, the "okay, we blinked first and came with a great offer" message with Bettman's humble puppy eyes? what a frkn acting job that was.

All for "public opinion"

What a stupid game this is to these guys.

So Fehr decides to publicly rally his players, show complete solidarity and balk.

Could there be a more selfish and childish way to negotiate, collectively bargain, figure out how to share billions of dollars?

Alas, some day SOON, there will be hockey and this charade will be past us.

I just think the hurting of the brand, the disrespect of the fans, one day, will catch up to them.
I think it's a complete fail that Bettman can't make a deal unless he results to work stoppage and essentially holding his breath until he gets his way.

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10-19-2012, 12:01 AM
  #575
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And everyone HAS TO KNOW THIS, including Fehr AND Bettman and the players.

That's why I'm CONVINCED this is posturing ONLY. That even the Twitter stuff is somewhat orchestrated by Fehr.

Bettman's PR play this week was perfect. That "study" they did, where they hired the republican dude to help their PR (not sure if that played into this) and the 50/50 message, the "full season" message, the "okay, we blinked first and came with a great offer" message with Bettman's humble puppy eyes? what a frkn acting job that was.

All for "public opinion"

What a stupid game this is to these guys.

So Fehr decides to publicly rally his players, show complete solidarity and balk.

Could there be a more selfish and childish way to negotiate, collectively bargain, figure out how to share billions of dollars?

Alas, some day SOON, there will be hockey and this charade will be past us.

I just think the hurting of the brand, the disrespect of the fans, one day, will catch up to them.
I think it's a complete fail that Bettman can't make a deal unless he results to work stoppage and essentially holding his breath until he gets his way.
You summed up my feelings, especially your points on Bettman and the PR battle.

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