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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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Old
10-19-2012, 06:23 AM
  #576
Riddick
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i love how fehr is absolutely seeming like he is willing to forgoe a season where the players would lose 1.6billion over a $1.4billion share over the course of the CBA the NHL is offering. just an absolute asshat...

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10-19-2012, 07:37 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Riddick View Post
i love how fehr is absolutely seeming like he is willing to forgoe a season where the players would lose 1.6billion over a $1.4billion share over the course of the CBA the NHL is offering. just an absolute asshat...
Fehr works for the players. If they wanted to sign any deal the league put forth today, Fehr would abide. Everyone acts like Fehr is some puppetmaster pulling the players' strings. He's not. What he is is a tough negotiator and a smart strategist (or at least he has a reputation of being those things), but he still does what is asked of him. Everyone acts like Fehr swooped in on the PA and gained control to push HIS agenda, when in reality the players sought him out to do their bidding.

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10-19-2012, 07:52 AM
  #578
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Fehr works for the players. If they wanted to sign any deal the league put forth today, Fehr would abide. Everyone acts like Fehr is some puppetmaster pulling the players' strings. He's not. What he is is a tough negotiator and a smart strategist (or at least he has a reputation of being those things), but he still does what is asked of him. Everyone acts like Fehr swooped in on the PA and gained control to push HIS agenda, when in reality the players sought him out to do their bidding.
Exactly. What the players wanted from Fehr is what Fehr is providing the players: the ability to send a clear message. The message, in case anyone missed it, it *no salary rollbacks*. Players are on board. The reason is simply - they do *not* want to give back the growth, and don't want to set the precedent that this can be done *when already in a hard cap context*.

Now, whether the players will stick to their guns is anyone's guess. But they're not going to lose by giving mixed signals among themselves. That's specifically why they hired Fehr.

Dropping down to 50% over 2-3 years was always the obvious solution to this problem for the players. It's also a good solution for wealthy teams spending near the 2011-12 cap. The players are obviously hoping the owners will divide before they do.

It's anyone's guess what's going to happen. The thing that gets missed around here is that everyone understands the structure of each side's position. There is, and need be no radical break from the past. The only question left is will one side win, or will both compromise, or neither?

I agree with Redbull - I think it's overwhelmingly likely that we'll see an agreement within the next couple of weeks. It's not the rhetoric. Objectively speaking, the sides really aren't that far away. The gap has been closed remarkably. Let's not miss that.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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10-19-2012, 08:20 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
Exactly. What the players wanted from Fehr is what Fehr is providing the players: the ability to send a clear message. The message, in case anyone missed it, it *no salary rollbacks*. Players are on board. The reason is simply - they do *not* want to give back the growth, and don't want to set the precedent that this can be done *when already in a hard cap context*.

Now, whether the players will stick to their guns is anyone's guess. But they're not going to lose by giving mixed signals among themselves. That's specifically why they hired Fehr.

Dropping down to 50% over 2-3 years was always the obvious solution to this problem for the players. It's also a good solution for wealthy teams spending near the 2011-12 cap. The players are obviously hoping the owners will divide before they do.

It's anyone's guess what's going to happen. The thing that gets missed around here is that everyone understands the structure of each side's position. There is, and need be no radical break from the past. The only question left is will one side win, or will both compromise, or neither?

I agree with Redbull - I think it's overwhelmingly likely that we'll see an agreement within the next couple of weeks. It's not the rhetoric. Objectively speaking, the sides really aren't that far away. The gap has been closed remarkably. Let's not miss that.

Cheers,

Dan-o
That's just it. The players are being asked to bail the owners out for the problems they caused for themselves yet again, and the players understandably don't want any part of it in the form of rollbacks on the deals they've already made. I don't see why anyone can fault them for this. The PA seems willing to give back over time up to 7% of their current share to right the ship for the long-term, which would result in a 50/50 split. However, the league is demanding it all immediately and once again choosing not to honor the deals that they offered the players in the first place. Just like last time.

If the league was serious about compromise, they'd work out a method to increase their share of revenue without immediate rollbacks. If they put forth a deal like that without any other major concessions, watch how quickly the PA signs the deal.

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10-19-2012, 11:12 AM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Strummergas View Post
That's just it. The players are being asked to bail the owners out for the problems they caused for themselves yet again, and the players understandably don't want any part of it in the form of rollbacks on the deals they've already made. I don't see why anyone can fault them for this. The PA seems willing to give back over time up to 7% of their current share to right the ship for the long-term, which would result in a 50/50 split. However, the league is demanding it all immediately and once again choosing not to honor the deals that they offered the players in the first place. Just like last time.

If the league was serious about compromise, they'd work out a method to increase their share of revenue without immediate rollbacks. If they put forth a deal like that without any other major concessions, watch how quickly the PA signs the deal.
The players don't want any rollbacks b/c its symbolic of a past PA that got hammered - that's all it is. It's a vapor argument.

You think the agents for Parise and Suter were clueless whether one of the owners bargainning positions would be rollbacks on a deal these guys are signing?

A 'budget' team all of sudden dishes out $200 million on TWO players...Hmm...the players had enough information to know this would be a bargainning position. So, you sign the deal anyway, knowing you most likely get 80% value on your deal, if you get it all, great, if not, you knew it was a possibility. If the players did not know, then their agents faulted them or the PA faulted the players in not informing them of what those contracts were going to represent. We've heard numerous stories over the years of how players 'need to do the right thing' in representing salary escalation to tow the party line and ensure salaries are driven up by the top tier players never setttling for less than a certain value, aka don't reset the salary bracket.

The rollback issue is all PR b/c it plays to people's emotions of fairness, aka a handshake. You said you would pay me 'x' for 'y' then pay me 'x' not 'z' - something everyone (fans) deal with each day.

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10-19-2012, 11:29 AM
  #581
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I hope Fehr is asking all the players where they stand. The older players and the mediocre 4th liners probably want something different than the others do.

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Old
10-19-2012, 11:46 AM
  #582
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With escrow in place, the players are going to get most of their money back, its just a matter of them having to wait a little longer.

The players have absolutely no leverage. What they are doing now is only damaging their bottom line. If they sign now they get a better deal and more money in their pockets. If they sign next year, you can bet the deal will be worse and they'll lose a year's worth of wages. It really does not make any sense. Its almost like they are not applying logic and negotiating based on god knows what.

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10-19-2012, 12:15 PM
  #583
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With escrow in place, the players are going to get most of their money back, its just a matter of them having to wait a little longer.

The players have absolutely no leverage. What they are doing now is only damaging their bottom line. If they sign now they get a better deal and more money in their pockets. If they sign next year, you can bet the deal will be worse and they'll lose a year's worth of wages. It really does not make any sense. Its almost like they are not applying logic and negotiating based on god knows what.
your post is so off base....you act like the owners can still make money without the players...there is leverage on both sides otherwise there wouldnt be any negotiations

ever hear of 11th hour negotiations? (you should be familiar with this as an isles fan)....82 game season hanging in the balnce

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Old
10-19-2012, 12:17 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by blitzkriegs View Post
The players don't want any rollbacks b/c its symbolic of a past PA that got hammered - that's all it is. It's a vapor argument.

You think the agents for Parise and Suter were clueless whether one of the owners bargainning positions would be rollbacks on a deal these guys are signing?

A 'budget' team all of sudden dishes out $200 million on TWO players...Hmm...the players had enough information to know this would be a bargainning position. So, you sign the deal anyway, knowing you most likely get 80% value on your deal, if you get it all, great, if not, you knew it was a possibility. If the players did not know, then their agents faulted them or the PA faulted the players in not informing them of what those contracts were going to represent. We've heard numerous stories over the years of how players 'need to do the right thing' in representing salary escalation to tow the party line and ensure salaries are driven up by the top tier players never setttling for less than a certain value, aka don't reset the salary bracket.

The rollback issue is all PR b/c it plays to people's emotions of fairness, aka a handshake. You said you would pay me 'x' for 'y' then pay me 'x' not 'z' - something everyone (fans) deal with each day.
So if the players knew this and understood it from the start, why are we not watching NHL games now? Simply because of ego on a deal that they made out like bandits on the first time around? I'm not buying it. I'm sure they knew what the owners would try to get back from them this time around, but if they were willing to accept the tactic, we'd be discussing the results of the first 4 games instead of the lockout.

Look, at the end of the day 24% less of what most of the players make is still a lot of money. But the league cried poverty last time and got the players to give back, albeit begrudgingly. Now they're supposed to do it again, even after the league has been boasting about the growth over the last 6 years and has been singing the praises of the last CBA that they put into place? So now it's the principle of the matter for the players, and this is vastly different than being egotistical. They gave back last time and the league still couldn't make it work. The players are willing to conceed part of their share to make it an equal partnership over time, but they want their deals honored. If they give back again, it sets a precendent that the league will continue to revisit in order to get what they want. They're already trying it again after just one successful attempt.

I'll state it again, if the league were to propose a deal that reduces the players share of revenue without the immediate salary rollbacks, we'd be watching hockey in the near future.


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Old
10-19-2012, 12:40 PM
  #585
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So if the players knew this and understood it from the start, why are we not watching NHL games now? Simply because of ego on a deal that they made out like bandits on the first time around? I'm not buying it. I'm sure they knew what the owners would try to get back from them this time around, but if they were willing to accept the tactic, we'd be discussing the results of the first 4 games instead of the lockout.
Because the players see the rollback as a major concession, worse, it's precedent setting: Two consecutive lockouts would have resulted with the players giving salary rollbacks. How's that gonna play in the next CBA? The PA would be powerless at that point.

There were warning signs in the summer about excessive deals being signed in anticipation of the lockout. Get in before the salary crunch happens. Sure, but the rollback was staring these guys in the face (agents, players, PA reps, NHL, owners, etc.) because it already happened years ago and it worked. Why wouldn't the owners try it again? Why wouldn't the players not sign an 'inflated' deal now that may get rolled back?

Mind you, after the first contract players signed after the first lockout, their salaries have gone through the roof as a result of increased revenues. However, those revenues can't sustain the operating costs of 30 teams.

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10-19-2012, 12:47 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by blitzkriegs View Post
Because the players see the rollback as a major concession, worse, it's precedent setting: Two consecutive lockouts would have resulted with the players giving salary rollbacks. How's that gonna play in the next CBA? The PA would be powerless at that point.

There were warning signs in the summer about excessive deals being signed in anticipation of the lockout. Get in before the salary crunch happens. Sure, but the rollback was staring these guys in the face (agents, players, PA reps, NHL, owners, etc.) because it already happened years ago and it worked. Why wouldn't the owners try it again? Why wouldn't the players not sign an 'inflated' deal now that may get rolled back?

Mind you, after the first contract players signed after the first lockout, their salaries have gone through the roof as a result of increased revenues. However, those revenues can't sustain the operating costs of 30 teams.
I was editing my earlier post while you were posting this. Yes, we agree that the PA does not want to set the precedent of having to give back salary after every CBA expires.

And I understand that operating costs are supposedly too high for the increased revenue to cover. The players do too based on the three proposals submitted yesterday. So both the PA and the League agree on this point. So the League has got a concession from the players to reduce their share. The League should conceed their demand for a rollback, meeting the players half-way, and just christen a new deal already.

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10-19-2012, 01:26 PM
  #587
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I don't want any agreement unless the TML and NYR are taken out of the cap figures (and the two lowest revenue teams). Seriously, how much can they skew the numbers? $3-5M per team extra?

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10-19-2012, 01:51 PM
  #588
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your post is so off base....you act like the owners can still make money without the players...there is leverage on both sides otherwise there wouldnt be any negotiations

ever hear of 11th hour negotiations? (you should be familiar with this as an isles fan)....82 game season hanging in the balnce
Players have much less leverage for a few reasons:

1) Some owners are legitimately losing money.
2) The majority of the owners would have much better ROI if they have their money in ventures other than hockey (i.e. this really is a hobby/pseudo-philanthropic venture for many).
3) For every Ovechkin and Crosby there are 5 Reasoners sitting at home twiddling their thumbs.

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10-19-2012, 02:14 PM
  #589
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I'm not into the whole "Twitter" thing, don't know much about it, but last night, I used my Twitter app for the first time in ages (used to follow Botta and other hockey related things), and posted on 59 hockey players twitter, this comment "smart for follwing Fehr, now you will lose a year's salary due to your greed". And called out Paul Bissonette on the player's so called 50/50 offer. It was actually fun. Opened up my twitter app this morning, and found out I have my first 2 followers ever, lol.

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10-19-2012, 02:19 PM
  #590
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I'm not into the whole "Twitter" thing, don't know much about it, but last night, I used my Twitter app for the first time in ages (used to follow Botta and other hockey related things), and posted on 59 hockey players twitter, this comment "smart for follwing Fehr, now you will lose a year's salary due to your greed". And called out Paul Bissonette on the player's so called 50/50 offer. It was actually fun. Opened up my twitter app this morning, and found out I have my first 2 followers ever, lol.
who are your followers? were they who you were targeting? Is it Kim and Khloe?

Or are you more of a Mila Kunis and Scarlett Johansson type?

Either way, well done!

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10-19-2012, 02:36 PM
  #591
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who are your followers? were they who you were targeting? Is it Kim and Khloe?

Or are you more of a Mila Kunis and Scarlett Johansson type?

Either way, well done!
lol redbull, good one. I wasn't targeting anyone, never use this Twitter thing (I'm 50 years old). One follower is named BruinsLife.com, and the other is some chick named Roxanne.

On a side note. Mila and Scarlett are HOT ! If I was forced to make a decision, I'm more partial towards Scarlett.


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10-19-2012, 03:50 PM
  #592
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lol redbull, good one. I wasn't targeting anyone, never use this Twitter thing (I'm 50 years old). One follower is named BruinsLife.com, and the other is some chick named Roxanne.

On a side note. Mila and Scarlett are HOT ! If I was forced to make a decision, I'm more partial towards Scarlett.
Twitter is both awesome and stupid.

My reco: use it to follow people/topics you like. It's an amazingly efficient way to get news (sports, entertainment) instantly. At a glance, you can see what's happening and then decide if you want to pursue anything further.

For hockey, there are some amazing resourced that are very active, like McKenzie, Dreger, John Shannon has a lot of hockey/lockout stuff, and dozens more....maybe we should share sources? On another thread?

Don't go down the path of "tweeting" because most people are boring as @$#$@ and I assure you nobody wants updates of what you do with yourself throughout the day.

Unless it involves racy Scarlett photos, I suppose.

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10-19-2012, 03:56 PM
  #593
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League has announced they will cancel all games till November 1st.

We are undefeated in October people!!!! WOOOOO HOOOOO

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10-19-2012, 04:12 PM
  #594
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Twitter is both awesome and stupid.

My reco: use it to follow people/topics you like. It's an amazingly efficient way to get news (sports, entertainment) instantly. At a glance, you can see what's happening and then decide if you want to pursue anything further.

For hockey, there are some amazing resourced that are very active, like McKenzie, Dreger, John Shannon has a lot of hockey/lockout stuff, and dozens more....maybe we should share sources? On another thread?

Don't go down the path of "tweeting" because most people are boring as @$#$@ and I assure you nobody wants updates of what you do with yourself throughout the day.

Unless it involves racy Scarlett photos, I suppose.
Yesterday was the first and last time I will probably ever tweet, unless Scarlett tweets me first lol.

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10-19-2012, 04:18 PM
  #595
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Don't know how old most of you guys and girls are. I am 48 and lived through Donald Fehr and the baseball negotiations. I could be wrong but I do not ever remember a baseball season starting on-time for a contract he negotiated. He he very tough and gets what his union wants regardless of fan reaction/sentiment(the devil inside me believes he is not a sports fan at all). I am not usually a doomsday type of person but I fear that this is going to get ugly and the very best we as fans can expect is about 1/2 a season. But I think no season is the reality. Also please do not take this post as a Fehr/NHLPA bashing as I think both sides are being stubborn. I have just missed watching too many games while Fehr has been the MLBPA and NHLPA negotiator that I can never get back.

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10-20-2012, 10:10 AM
  #596
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And everyone HAS TO KNOW THIS, including Fehr AND Bettman and the players.

That's why I'm CONVINCED this is posturing ONLY. That even the Twitter stuff is somewhat orchestrated by Fehr.

Bettman's PR play this week was perfect. That "study" they did, where they hired the republican dude to help their PR (not sure if that played into this) and the 50/50 message, the "full season" message, the "okay, we blinked first and came with a great offer" message with Bettman's humble puppy eyes? what a frkn acting job that was.

All for "public opinion"

What a stupid game this is to these guys.
So true.

CBA negotiations in other arena's can be just as stupid, but at the same time kind of refreshing to see. You take two sets of guys (mostly) in suits, with degrees up their wazoos, tea pinky fingers extended, subscriptions to Forbes, homes on the Cape, etc., lock them in a room and watch them degenerate into primordial monkeys slinging pooh at each other. If we ever needed to be reminded of how non-special these guys are as fellow human beings, CBA talks are great reminders that at heart we are mostly cavemen in suits, and always will be despite our cultural pedigrees.

On another related topic, over at P.B. they pulled out some highlights from the owner's offer that would impact our team positively, and immediately.

Quote:
- A proposed cap range of $59.9- $43.9 million
- Players can no longer be buried in the AHL (good for small markets like the Isles, bad for the Rangers with players like Wade Redden).
- Cap requirements can no longer be satisfied with performance bonuses.
I am extremely pleased to see these included. I hope they last through the process. (I didn't link it assuming most here are more then familiar with the blog.)

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10-20-2012, 09:47 PM
  #597
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Alright so this is good, the Islanders usually start off the year with a huge losing streak so if we start in the second half then we actually have a chance to succeed

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10-20-2012, 10:39 PM
  #598
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i love how fehr is absolutely seeming like he is willing to forgoe a season where the players would lose 1.6billion over a $1.4billion share over the course of the CBA the NHL is offering. just an absolute asshat...
This is exactly what I posted a few pages back. It just doesn't make any sense. Glad I'm not the only person realizing this

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10-21-2012, 11:45 AM
  #599
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This is exactly what I posted a few pages back. It just doesn't make any sense. Glad I'm not the only person realizing this


stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.

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10-21-2012, 12:48 PM
  #600
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Until they go back to the table and start talking again, and thing we say and the media says, is not worth a damned thing. Go watch some football, read a book (No Easy Day, great book), go see a movie (Argo, great movie), ain't nothing to see here till they get back to the bargaining table.

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