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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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Old
12-05-2012, 11:25 PM
  #826
Ziggy16
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@tsnjamesduthie: NHL staffers just brought in milkshakes for the owners. If one of you starts a @JeremyJacobsMilkshake account, the world will end.

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12-05-2012, 11:30 PM
  #827
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It is now 12:30 and the two sides are still talking... I've got a little more work to do then its off to bed but here's an update from Bob Mckenzie's twitter:

Quote:
Hearing NHL and NHLPA have scaled back numbers involved in tonight's sessions. Down to 3 owners and far fewer players than earlier in day.
https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/s...58199295971329
Quote:
Multiple people with some sense of what's going on will only say process is at "critical" juncture or "serious" phase
https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/s...58736837967872

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12-06-2012, 12:00 AM
  #828
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@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Ron Hainsey meeting media now. Says both sides will meet again tomorrow. nothing else to say.
@aaronward_nhl: Hainsey "we had a series of meetings tonight,very candid conversation, will have meetings tomorrow"

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12-06-2012, 12:22 AM
  #829
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@TSNBobMcKenzie: NHLPA expected to have internal meetings in the morning, resume contact with NHL closer to noon eastern time.

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12-06-2012, 05:03 AM
  #830
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The league's offer Wednesday night offered a raise in money devoted to the 'make-whole' provision. The number in the latest offer jumped to $300 million, up from $211 million in the league's previous offer. The players had previously asked for $389 million, making the owners' latest offer an exact middle ground between the previous offer and the players' demands. However, of that proposed $300 million only $250 million would go towards a 'make-whole' provision with the remaining $50 million going towards pension funding that would not come out of the players' share.

The proposal submitted was for a 10-year term for the next CBA with an opt-out clause after eight years. The rules governing unrestricted free agency and salary arbitration would remain unchanged from last season. The league did not budge on its request for a five-year term limit on player contracts and held firm to a maximum year-to-year salary variance of five per cent.

The league's offer did, however, offer an exception on contract lengths for the re-signing of free agents. Teams would be allowed to re-sign their own free agents to contracts up to seven years in duration


According to sources, the owners discussed a possible season that would span 50-plus games. There had been talk of a 60-game schedule in the event of a labour settlement, but the feeling among the group was that it would be too ambitious at this stage.



http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410987

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12-06-2012, 06:15 AM
  #831
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i kinda like that, its like the larry bird exception. 'sure, you can go wherever you would like, but only for 5 years. or you can stay on your own team for 7 with more money'.


and i reallllly hope that the 8 year opt-out has a provision that mandates they have to start negotiating a year BEFORE they can opt out so that they dont go through this ******** again.

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12-06-2012, 06:31 AM
  #832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy16 View Post
The league's offer Wednesday night offered a raise in money devoted to the 'make-whole' provision. The number in the latest offer jumped to $300 million, up from $211 million in the league's previous offer. The players had previously asked for $389 million, making the owners' latest offer an exact middle ground between the previous offer and the players' demands. However, of that proposed $300 million only $250 million would go towards a 'make-whole' provision with the remaining $50 million going towards pension funding that would not come out of the players' share.

The proposal submitted was for a 10-year term for the next CBA with an opt-out clause after eight years. The rules governing unrestricted free agency and salary arbitration would remain unchanged from last season. The league did not budge on its request for a five-year term limit on player contracts and held firm to a maximum year-to-year salary variance of five per cent.

The league's offer did, however, offer an exception on contract lengths for the re-signing of free agents. Teams would be allowed to re-sign their own free agents to contracts up to seven years in duration


According to sources, the owners discussed a possible season that would span 50-plus games. There had been talk of a 60-game schedule in the event of a labour settlement, but the feeling among the group was that it would be too ambitious at this stage.



http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410987
Its a very good sign to see them budging on some of the economic issues that is a really good sign to me. If there is going to be some sort of clause that allows home grown players to be extended longer I'm all for that 100%. Here are some post meeting tweets:

Aaron Ward TSN:

Quote:
Devil is in the Details in that it appears it still does not honor actual full value of existing contracts. #TSN
Which will not go over well with the NHLPA.
Quote:
NHLPA internal meeting to take place mid Thursday morning and will include players not in attendance via telephone. #TSN
https://twitter.com/aaronward_nhl/st...81079891210241
https://twitter.com/aaronward_nhl/st...96014402662400

James Mirtle:
Quote:
Frankly, a 10-year CBA probably helps players in long run. A 50-50 split eight or nine years from now likely means very high average salary.
Quote:
Been told for months players more likely to give on variance than strict term limit, preserving DiPietro deals. Still believe that the case.
https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/276581178952273920
https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/276590963516928001

Darren Dreger:
Quote:
Players may not love the leagues proposal, but, it might be enough to encourage a full membership vote. Make Whole will always be an issue.
https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...89107554160640

Michael Grange:
Quote:
Some tension in room at times; Jacobs nearly walks out; Miller snaps. Moderates rule day #NHL /3
https://twitter.com/michaelgrange/st...80027481600001

So it sounds like it was a crazy day... Ready for round 2.

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12-06-2012, 06:37 AM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Riddick View Post
and i reallllly hope that the 8 year opt-out has a provision that mandates they have to start negotiating a year BEFORE they can opt out so that they dont go through this ******** again.
I feel the same exact way... But we are not talking about normal sane men, these guys (most of them) only see one thing when it comes to hockey and that is $$$. If the NHL owners are dead set on making drastic changes to the system again there really is no point to starting early because it gives them no leverage (from a league perspective). The NHLPA would just tell them they're nuts we aren't going to make drastic concessions you don't have the balls to lock us out again, which is really what I think happened this time. The only real bargaining chip the NHL has/uses is the threat of not handing out paychecks and when that threat happens a year in advance the NHLPA will always call their bluff. Immovable morons meet unstoppable jackasses, hopefully they learned a lesson this time but we all know they really haven't.

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12-06-2012, 07:17 AM
  #834
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King Ego almost killed the day:


On the darker side, Damien Cox of the Toronto Sun reported that things weren’t all rosy and cheerful in Wednesday’s negotiating sessions.

Bruins owners Jeremy Jacobs nearly walked out of a tense session with the players. The report states that a frustrated and upset Jacobs turned to NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and said, "Let's leave."

To which Daly responded: "It's up to you”.

Cooler heads prevailed. Jacobs and Daly took a deep breath, re-grouped, and stayed in the room with the players. I applaud Jacobs for his decision. One wonders what Bettman would have told Jacobs, were he in Daly’s place.

What was the cause of Jacobs’ ire? Not sure. But Cox reports that:

Buffalo Sabres goalie Ryan Miller had angrily vented when the owners said they were disappointed with the players responses to an earlier offer and threatened to pull everything off the table.

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12-06-2012, 07:59 AM
  #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy16 View Post
King Ego almost killed the day:


On the darker side, Damien Cox of the Toronto Sun reported that things weren’t all rosy and cheerful in Wednesday’s negotiating sessions.

Bruins owners Jeremy Jacobs nearly walked out of a tense session with the players. The report states that a frustrated and upset Jacobs turned to NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and said, "Let's leave."

To which Daly responded: "It's up to you”.

Cooler heads prevailed. Jacobs and Daly took a deep breath, re-grouped, and stayed in the room with the players. I applaud Jacobs for his decision. One wonders what Bettman would have told Jacobs, were he in Daly’s place.

What was the cause of Jacobs’ ire? Not sure. But Cox reports that:

Buffalo Sabres goalie Ryan Miller had angrily vented when the owners said they were disappointed with the players responses to an earlier offer and threatened to pull everything off the table.
I am not saying this is not true. However i would not believe everything you read. I would rather have no news from anyone. The more that get "leaked" the less likely we are to see a deal

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12-06-2012, 10:39 AM
  #836
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And new info, about whether we are we looking at a $70m cap ceiling or a $59m cap ceiling if we get a partial season?

I want the ceiling as low as possible. I'm hoping teams will be forced to scramble to get below the ceiling.

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12-06-2012, 11:11 AM
  #837
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Just heard via Twitter that Oleg Kvasha has made his first appearance.

This has GOT to be a good sign...

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12-06-2012, 05:40 PM
  #838
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@TSNBobMcKenzie: NHL-NHLPA session has broken up. Bill Daly and NHL group returning to their offices to confer. Will touch base with NHLPA later on next step

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: League will get back to NHLPA in some form or another. Not clear if both sides will meet again or not tonight at this point

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Bill Daly and NHL contingent have left hotel. They will have internal meeting with Gary Bettman and owners still in NYC.

@aaronward_nhl: The NHLPA counter was based off of the NHL's offer from yesterday's negotiations.

@jonasTSN1050: TSN1050 will carry Don Fehr press conference live.

@DarrenDreger: PA very disappointed Bettman and owners didn't attend todays meeting. 16 players, Don and Steve Fehr represented PA.

@aaronward_nhl: Told NHLPA tabled another proposal tonight.Moved in some areas in hopes that it is enough to keep negotiations going.

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12-06-2012, 06:30 PM
  #839
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Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Fehr says NHL left a voicemail message saying NHLPA counter wasn't acceptable. No need to stick around today or Friday. Talks broken for now

Well this is sad......

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12-06-2012, 06:32 PM
  #840
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**** these morons

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Old
12-06-2012, 07:46 PM
  #841
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Ron Burkle, Co-Owner, Pittsburgh Penguins

The idea to put players and owners together in the same room was a refreshing idea. Commissioner Bettman should be thanked for proposing it and the Fehrs should be thanked for agreeing to it.

The players came with a strong desire to get back to playing hockey. They were professional and did a good job of expressing their concerns and listening to ours. We Wanted to move quickly and decisively. We have all spent too much time Without any real progress at the expense of our fans, our sponsors and the communities we serve. It was time to make bold moves and get a deal. Many people think We got over our skis and they are probably right, but We wanted to do everything we could to get back to hockey now. We didn't hold

We made substantial movement on our end quickly, but unfortunately that was not met with the same level of movement from the other side. The players asked us to be patient and keep working with them. |t's not what they do and they Wanted us to know they were committed.

We understood and appreciate their situation. We came back with an aggressive commitment to pensions which we felt was well received. We needed a response on key items that were important to us, but We were optimistic that we were down to very few issues. I believe a deal was within reach.

We were therefore surprised when the Fehrs made a unilateral and "non-negotiable" decision - which is their right, to end the player/owner process that has moved us farther in two days than we have moved at any time in the past months.

I want to thank the players involved for their hard Work as We tried to reach a deal.

I hope that going backwards does not prevent a deal.

Mark Chipman, Chairman and Governor, Winnipeg Jets:

"I'd like to thank the NHL for giving me the opportunity to participate in this very important process.

I came here optimistic that we could find a solution. That sense of optimism grew after our first few sessions, including the small group discussions late last night.

Regrettably, we have been unable to close the divide on some critical issues that we feel are essential to the immediate and long-term health of our game.

While I sense there are some members of the players association that understand our perspective on these issues, clearly there are many that dont.

I am deeply disappointed that we were unable to bring this extremely unfortunate situation to a successful conclusion and I wish to apologize to our fans and sponsors for letting them down."

Larry Tanenbaum, Chairman of the Board, Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment

"I was pleased to be asked to join the Player/Owner negotiation sessions. I had hoped that my perspective both as a businessman and as one of the owners of the Toronto Maple Leafs would be helpful to the process. Like all other teams, this work stoppage has hurt our fans, our employees and our business. Neither the owners nor the players will ever recover the losses incurred with this work stoppage.

I understand how important it is to have a strong league and 30 healthy teams. I must admit that I was shocked at how things have played out over the last 48 hours. The sessions on Tuesday felt cooperative with an air of goodwill. I was optimistic and conveyed my optimism to the Board of Governors at our Wednesday meeting. However, when we reconvened with the players on Wednesday afternoon, it was like someone had thrown a switch. The atmosphere had completely changed. Nevertheless, the owners tried to push forward and made a number of concessions and proposals, which were not well-received. I question whether the union is interested in making an agreement.

I am very disappointed and disillusioned. Had I not experienced this process myself, I might not have believed it. Like all hockey fans, I am hopeful this situation can be resolved as soon as possible. I miss our game."

Jeff Vinik, Chairman and Governor, Tampa Bay Lightning

"After working this week with our players toward what we hoped would be a new agreement, owners presented a proposal we believed would benefit those great players, ownership, and, ultimately, our fans for many years to come. While trust was built and progress was made along the way, unfortunately, our proposal was rejected by the Union's leadership. My love for the game is only superseded by my commitment to our fans and I hold out hope we can soon join with our players and return the game back to its rightful place on the ice."



http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=647180

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12-06-2012, 07:47 PM
  #842
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Do I want hockey back?
SURE I DO!

But, I'm going to avoid buying anything, supporting anything, doing anything that will put money into any owner(s) pocket(s) for as long as I can hold out.

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12-06-2012, 10:27 PM
  #843
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Wow just wow..

Got home from work reading through all this crap that transpired tonight and I'm literally shaking my head. The NHL really only sent two people to see the players counter proposal? And then went and rejected the offer by leaving them a voicemail saying there's no need to continue talks. I haven't hidden my support for the players at all and holy crap this is infuriating.

I understand some of you guys hate Fehr, for many reasons and trust me I completely understand, but your completely mistaken if you think a deal would have been agreed upon with out him overlooking it first. He is the players representative and from everywhere I am reading he has the players support. This tweet by Andy Strickland makes it seem like the owners were trying to pull one over on the players by not allowing their labor lawyer view the deal:

Quote:
When #NHLPA wanted Fehr back in room to close out deal yesterday, owners said it would be a deal breaker. Derailed process
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/s...89879999303680


Utterly ridiculous.. And now the owners have pulled all of their "concessions" off the table. I specifically put it in quotes because their "concessions" has been an insignificant decrease in their initial demands. The owners actually got offended when they told the players that they're no longer demanding $1 billion in concessions that now they're only asking for $900 million... I'm so fed up right now.

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12-06-2012, 11:37 PM
  #844
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I am so not siding with the owners, but I really get the impression that the NHLPA want to make a point and even stick it to the owners for the last lockout.

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12-07-2012, 12:56 AM
  #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunk Moreland View Post
Wow just wow..

Got home from work reading through all this crap that transpired tonight and I'm literally shaking my head. The NHL really only sent two people to see the players counter proposal? And then went and rejected the offer by leaving them a voicemail saying there's no need to continue talks. I haven't hidden my support for the players at all and holy crap this is infuriating.

I understand some of you guys hate Fehr, for many reasons and trust me I completely understand, but your completely mistaken if you think a deal would have been agreed upon with out him overlooking it first. He is the players representative and from everywhere I am reading he has the players support. This tweet by Andy Strickland makes it seem like the owners were trying to pull one over on the players by not allowing their labor lawyer view the deal:



https://twitter.com/andystrickland/s...89879999303680


Utterly ridiculous.. And now the owners have pulled all of their "concessions" off the table. I specifically put it in quotes because their "concessions" has been an insignificant decrease in their initial demands. The owners actually got offended when they told the players that they're no longer demanding $1 billion in concessions that now they're only asking for $900 million... I'm so fed up right now.
Fehr is just playing this all up. His strategy is to play chicken that the league will not want to cancel a second season. While the owners might not want to cancel, I'm pretty confident they will flush it down the toilet rather than cave to Fehr.

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12-07-2012, 07:08 AM
  #846
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I don't really understand what's going on here. It seems that there are only two substantive issues left on the table: (i) the 5 (UFA from other org)/7 (UFA from home org) contract length issue, and (ii) transitional issues re compliance buyouts, etc.

The first issue really is substantive. Still, I think it's pretty shortsighted of the players if they are going to pick a fight on this issue. The trend in sports labor, particularly in the NBA, is very much against the players on contract length.

The second issue is pretty silly. The player movement chaos that will surely occur at the beginning of the CBA is a very small thing compared to the term of the deal. There's no reason to allow this to scuttle the season. The other thing is that the *owners* are always the best at finding the loopholes in the agreement in ways that give them additional roster flexibility. So long as one-way contracts are guaranteed, those undiscovered loopholes are certain to benefit the players financially.

The players have won on arbitration, length of entry-level contracts, and UFA age. Those were key wins, much more important than the existing issues left on the table.

So it's close to the point where I'm starting the wonder about what the players are doing here unless there is a major piece of information that's left out of the news stories. If a condition of an offer was that the Union Head could not review the offer, that would explain it. That kind of condition would be so bizarre and so ridiculously combative that even I have a hard time believing the league would do it. Hopefully, we'll find out more.

The other thing is term of the CBA. Why wouldn't the players want a longer term? Every time a negotiation comes up, it gets worse for the players!

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:09 AM
  #847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by periferal View Post
I am so not siding with the owners, but I really get the impression that the NHLPA want to make a point and even stick it to the owners for the last lockout.
Honestly, I doubt that any of this has to do with personal malice. It's just a lack of trust.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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12-07-2012, 08:03 AM
  #848
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i heard some rumors that a offer was put forth by the nhl and they sad something about fehr not being allowed to review it ?

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Old
12-07-2012, 08:47 AM
  #849
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i heard some rumors that a offer was put forth by the nhl and they sad something about fehr not being allowed to review it ?
Whatever you heard was wrong.

EVERYTHING we hear is wrong. Doesn't everyone get it by now? Haven't you all learned from the last lockout? The same **** is happening now. Things leak out in the media and everyone jumps on it. Then... guess what? NO DEAL! Between this lockout and last lockout I have heard everything from a schedule already drawn up ready to be released to a deal being "imminent" to players being recalled from their teams overseas and guess what?... NONE OF IT IS TRUE!

BTW, this is in no way aimed at you fantom just speaking in generalities here. My point? The media doesn't know anymore than you or I know. That was proven back in 04-05 and is being reinforced now.

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12-07-2012, 09:16 AM
  #850
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What a roller coaster of a week.

I think these negotiations are like shooting at a moving target. Anyone agree?

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