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Keep hearing Bouwmeester is getting moved to Boston...for who?

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07-01-2012, 12:28 AM
  #151
kman22
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
i love lucic soooo much but if this deal gets offered to us you can bet everydollar you own that chiarelli has the balls for it

thomas family is in colorado... and we need to accept his word that he is taking time off to be with them... and as compasionate human beings we need to wish them well

as fans who got some great service from thomas in the past... we hope he is telling the truth that this is all that is involved as far as his reasons go for screwing the team over now.

with that said... i say keep him and give him his time off. suspend him. protect our asset. dont trade from a position of weakness. give the guy all the humanitarian time he needs. if he never comes back then say best of wishes and hope all is well in his personal life BUT if he does come back then make it be on our terms

we front loaded this guys contract and gave him a ntc for his benefit... and now we took away that ntc so we could deal him for an asset after honoring our side of the bargain.

if he can get us the swedish kid though... then by god yes. Make that deal any day of the week absolutely.

realistically... dont see it happening. Ultimately see thomas moving maybe to toronto or chicago at this point. i guess louongo ends up in florida but im not sure why thats smart. i guess brodeur ends up in either chicago or toronto. probably makes berniers logical landing spot out to be new jersey. when all that dust settles one of chicago-toronto will be the one left standing at the dancefloor with no partner to waltz with.

cant even begin to guess at the return till we see which team it is and if my other predictions come true... but both teams do have expendable assets id take with a smile so it should work out. have faith
I know he might be bluffing, but LA's GM came out and said that he would prefer to keep both goalies for this upcoming season, and then figure it out from there.

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07-01-2012, 12:38 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
Hey, I love Seidenberg, he meshes great with Chara but he has never and could never, be a number one dman. He isn't nearly as effective when the B's separate him from Chara, and he's the guy carrying his pair- and that's even with him getting to play against 2nd lines.

JayBo is an elite skating, shut down D who moves the puck well and plays 25 minutes a night, in all situations, against first lines, with a dog **** partner. I think if you put JayBo on the 2nd pair on this team, with the way this team plays 5/5 and the matchups he'd get, he'd lead the league in plus/minus.
I have to ask Bill, how many times have you actually watched him play, or are you just reading old articles about him from his junior days?

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07-01-2012, 12:55 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Bruinator View Post
Seidenberg was the most consistantly solid dman on the Stanley cup run for the Bruins 2 years ago and was the same this past playoff against the Caps in round one. Boumeester has been and continues to be a completely over rated bust who has done diddly squat. When are people going to wake up and realize the Hype on this guy was just simply way over the top and quite frankly never justified. He's not a horrible dman, just not an all star as so many seem to think based on what was originally expected of him. Wouldn't trade Seidenberg straight up for him even if you doubled his salary to bring him up to Jaybo's level.
its just the people that overrate bouwmeister happen to be employed in the nhl and guys that are given jobs running scouting deparements and managing teams and coaching teams.

if you are trying to say that some fans expected this guy to win a bunch of norris trophys then you are correct those fans overrated the guy

if you are saying some fans see this guy making 6.8 million and expect him to just wow the pants off them with bone crunching hits and 60 point seasons then those fans arent really overrating him... they just dont really have a fundamental grasp on what it means to have a bad contract

bad contracts do not make bad players... but they do bring a lot of crap down on a players head from some fans that are very reactionary to bad contracts.

this is a guy whose coach will put on the ice for 25 mins a night in a number 1 roll and most coaches dont want to be fired so if the guy cant be an nhl stud dman, most coaches would protect their own rear ends and not throw this guy into situations he wasnt able to handle.

this is a guy who got targeted as the primary building block for a team that was trying to go for a cup win at the time they picked him up... a guy they picked up knowing it was as a replacement to phaneuf. a guy they picked up knowing they were going to have to pay him almost 7 mill a year to sign. real nhl gm backed up by one of the best ownership groups in hockey made this decesion. they did it after rick dudly was willing to trade down out of the number 1 pick overall and pass on Nash to draft this guy back in his draft season.

The talent level is why these very smart hockey people that win cups like sutter and are considered to be scouting geniuses like dudley, go out and overrate this guy again and again

but is it really overrating... cause once the guy is picked up the coaches play him and play him and play him... and when its time for outside hockey geniuses to try to put together national teams, bouwmeister gets consideration. when its time to pick allstar teams, bouwmeister gets consideration.

hockey ultimately is a team game... its hard for individuals to stand out successfully if the team around them sucks. its easier if the team is winning.

at the deadline in our cup run... i proposed we deal seidenberg. some very smart fans here chastised me and said we wouldnt be able to move his contract and that he sucked. go back and check the thread if you doubt me

i was ready to move him myself... so what does that say about me

then he has a great playoff and now we say he is a god... and why not. he did have one hell of a great playoff and no one can deny that.

but seidenberg bounced around the nhl alot before we got him... and when we got him most the fans were asking what the hell

again to pat myself on the back ill admit i said i wasnt sure he was any better then morris and i didnt understand why we downgraded our picks.

hindsight is 20-20 and we can all try to pretend we are lifelong fans of seidenberg now that he had a couple good playoffs but there wasnt much love for him 20 months ago around these parts.

bouwmeister is a buy low... sell high guy now. his stock is admittedly low. he is out of favor in calgary. calgary management is out of favor with their fans. calgary is boxing themselves into the corner picking up wideman before they move boumeister.

nothing i say can make that horrible cap hit any better... but we are able to handle it. its only 2 years. we do have a need for an upgrade on the team. i say this is an upgrade worth every penny of the cap hit... alot of others here seem to say it isnt.

we might never prove that argument one way or the other even if we do deal for him and win 2 cups cause... some arguments can never be proved

i mean who is better orr or gretzky... some arguments will be fought 50-50 for 100 years to come because hockey is a subjective game.

to say bouwmeister is overrated really says more about the persons opinion of him then it does about whether he is a productive nhl asset on the ice or not. this is a guy that real nhl coaches and real nhl gms and real nhl scouts have staked the reputation of their entire careers on.

he might be overpaid in our opinion... but he doesnt suck as a 25 min per night horse that skates like the wind and has both above average passing skills and above average shot... and above average size.

he has never been accused of being a bad locker room guy... or a bad teammate... or uncoachable... he isnt a glory hound who costs his team by gambling for personal glory on rushes... or taking super long shifts to try to pad his stats.

he is basically another version of glen wesley who we didnt like either... a better skating version... a more talented version... wesely found his spot in carolina after we ran him out of town and settled into a very valuable 3-4 role for them for years and years helping them win a cup cause that was what he was... just a milktoast unphysucal non offensive skilled shutdown guy that was a real good 3-4 guy on a team where he fit their needs.

we all wanted him to be the next bourque... it wasnt that we overrated him.. it was we had unreasonable expectations. we were the ones at fault... not wesley

so adjust your expections of bouwmeister to what is realistic and forget that cap hit and there wont be any worry of overrating him. im just calling him a real good number 3 guy with a lot of raw skill. i think if anything im underrating him myself. i like to be pleasently surprised though so im happy to keep my expectations realistic.

we cant be sure this is the single best guy we could pick up... we arent sure who else is available, but this is one possible option that improves the team imo and one that i believe is affordable to pick up as far as talent cost goes.

if we are serious bidders for nash... or ryan... or parise... or suter... then id go those routes instead but are we

definitely test the waters and make sure we know our footing before we act... but if the big guys are all out of our reach and we still have 3-4 mill cap room to spend this summer then there are way worst ways to spend it then getting bouwmeister. this is a low risk high reward type move... a guy that might suddenly respond to having a better team around him.. but who is still a real real real good number 3 talent even if he doesnt improve one slightest iota after the deal

then again.. i thought karberle would look better here then in toronto too... and we remember how that turned out lol... so i certainly dont bat 100% on all my evaluations

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07-01-2012, 12:56 AM
  #154
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Seidenberg is the better player. I have seen alot of Jay-Bo. He is a very good defenseman. He has all the tools, however, he never seems to put them altogeather. Seidenberg might not have the offensive potential of Bowmeester (I say potential because Bowmeester has yet to produce at an elite offensive level) but he his much stronger in his own zone. He is a better shot blocker and descision maker. He was the best defensman for a Winning team during a stanley cup playoff run. Jay Bowmeester has never won at any level to date. He has great skill but it has not influenced his team or made the team around him better and as a result his teams have not won. I do believe he would help the Bruins but it astonishes me that people continue to underrate Seidenberg, especially Bruins fans. To win the stanley cup you need two top tier defenseman (especially if you are a defensive minded team like the Bruins) and Seidenberg proved that he is one of the elite shutdown defensman in the league. At times he was better than Chara and at times he continues to be. When your close to on par with arguably the best defensman in the NHL then you deserve credit over a guy that has routinely dissapointed. Again if Jay-Bo came to Boston I wouldn't complain but people need to remember a Defensman's first job is to keep the puck out of his team's net and Seidenberg does that with the best of them.

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07-01-2012, 12:58 AM
  #155
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He'd be the #3 guy here. He's absolutely overpaid, but as a #3 defenseman, he'd be really good, at least in my opinion.

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07-01-2012, 01:04 AM
  #156
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If you want to Guarantee the Bruins will not win the Cup next year the easiest way to do so would be to add Jaybo. His career playoff totals are 0 goals 0 assists 0 points and 14 penalty minutes in 18 AHL playoff games during the lockout.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=46419

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07-01-2012, 01:05 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
moving iginla makes sense to almost everyone on the planet except those that matter. they hired iginlas good friend gelinas to be a new coach to keep iginla happy. they brought back camerelli to keep iginla happy. they arent going to deal iginla unless iginla asks for a trade

and there is no indication at all that iginla wants a trade. he is almost the face of the nhl in canada behind crosby these days... he gets endorsements. he is like a god in calgary and seems to like the lifestyle of the city. maybe he would move on as an ufa but i dont think he wants anyone to think he asked for a trade and calgary wont take the first step and try to move him until he does.

for a brief time this summer i thought there was rumblings that iginla was open to a trade... then they all went away. it isnt going to happen

as for why calgary wants to move bouwmeister... and i see another voice saying he has no heart-no compete... the truth is you simply cant play in the NHL with no heart and no compete.

bouweister will frustrate fans because he isnt able to show you his heart-compete with big hits or tons of points. Most fans are not able to appreciate solid positional defense and ability to get to the right spot at the right time to make clean defensive shut down plays. Those same fans are able to go to capgeek and see that Jay is making 6.8 mill a year.

It takes zero brains at all to want to boo bouwmeister and it takes a ton of sophisticate appreciation to be willing to throw him on the ice for 25 mins a night and put him in the top 8-10 considerations for team canada.

unfortunately for calgary... most their fans find it easier to boo jay and blame him for not being a 50 point scorer then they find it to actually say he is worth the money.

Wideman will score more points then Bouwmeister as a lower cap hit... and calgary is treading water anyhow... so calgary gets to tell their fans that they are trying. that they are making moves.

It wasnt working the other way anyhow. Calgary wanted Bouwmeister to be a 6.8 mill pp qb and number 1 stud horse. Even his biggest fan in the world now knows this is asking too much of the guy. He has the raw skills to suggest he could do this.. but he doesnt have the overdrive of compete needed.. the warrior level of heart needed... the gretzky orr type creativity needed.

Im going to give you this... that when you measure his own compete-heart up against the majority of most nhl players it will place near the bottom of the pile. But he has enough. And his skill level is elite and at the top of the pile.

this is a guy that does get serious consideration for team canada when the team gets puts together... this is a guy whose coaches always make their number 1 guy. this isnt some guy that wilts and withers and disappears and cant compete.

his one big damning flaw is that he is overpaid. other then that he is one of the very best defensive shutdown guys in the league and talented enough to be an elite number 1 dman if only he could get the most out of his talents. He isnt that old yet that he is completely beyond the ability to coach a bit. If we take the preasure off of him of being the number 1 guy on a crap team and let him play in the shadow of Chara on a very good team then its not insane to think we might get a bit better results.

But im not supporting this trade because i expect better results. I support it even if all we end up with is the same guy that played the last 2 years in calgary. that guy was still a 25 min a night guy on a real horrible team that came inches away from the playoffs both years on the strength of its defense-goaltending and not its coaching or offense
You don't have to sell it to me, after the first paragraph we can take Iginla off the board. Makes sense. I was simply brainstorming about players I could see the Bruins spending 7million on. Kinda playing along. I'm of the camp that the Bruins don't need to bring in a 6-8 million per player.

Unlike other people, I'm not passing judgement on JayBo's skills, I'm simply looking at the hit. And yeah, all it took was going to capgeek. So what. The number is still huge, and not for just next year.

I know some people rush to judgement, and it's real easy to look bad on a bad team. The guy wouldn't be making that much if he wasn't talented. I understand, Seids is my fav player, it doesn't have to be all about flashy overt play. But JayBo does have question marks/negatives that even his supporters point out. Just too high price an investment for what I'm getting back IMO.

I'd rather spend the money elsewhere. If it was up to me, I'd probably spend on extensions, and maybe a complimentary player or two. I'm of the belief that Caron (and top prospects waiting around the fringe) can handle that line3 slot, and then everything else is okay once we get our own signed.

If I wanted to be wild, and go an aggressive route, I might bring in a moderately priced PP focused forward and replace Ference with an established, but reasonably affordable, PP QB.

Chara and Seids are rocks. Boychuk is steady. I expect McQuaid to return to 2010 form, and Hamilton to show the promise. Upgrading Ference with a specialist would be pretty cool.

But in the real world, I don't expect Chia to do much at all.

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07-01-2012, 01:10 AM
  #158
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Jay-Bo to me is alot like Brad Stuart. They are similar in that they both were seen as do it all smooth skating defensman coming out of the WHL. Both were seen to have heavy shots and an offensive upside. While both players are very good neither became the force they were expected to be at the NHL level. Just imagine if Ottawa traded Jason Spezza for Jay Bowmeester, Curtis Glencross and Tom Kostopolous. I think the rage elliceted from Sens fans would be about the same as it was for Bruins fans when Big Joe was traded. I think that Bowmeester would still have a positive impact here much like Stuart did in Detroit as an elite 3-4th defensman on a strong, well coached team.

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07-01-2012, 01:10 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
you will admit though I say basically the same thing as you... only a bit more fair. If he actually did wilt as you say then he really couldnt stick around the NHL and earn himself consideration for team canada nomination... a 6 mill contract... a top 3 draft spot...

smarter hockey people then you and i have judged him worthy of these types of pats on the back and stamps of approval.

and his coaches who dont want to befired throw the guy onto the ice 25 mins a night. night after night

i guess youd agree with me florida as a team sucked when bouwmeister was there... calgary as a team has sucked since bouwmeister got there. Is this the fault of one player

bouwmeister wont part the red sea or let anyone walk on water... and its easy to look at that cap hit and think he should have these godlike powers. i will be the first one to admit he is overpaid

i just also say we can afford to overpay him because of smart cap management in other spots in the lineup... smart planning for the future.

and i say we should afford it because the upgrade is worth the cost

if you are freaked out over his lack of physical play... then what can i say. I sure cant say you are wrong about how little physical play he contributes. We all know he isnt going to throw the body.

You say this makes him a marginal player though that you might take at half the cost. I say he is still a guy that was a top 3 pick.. a guy that is still always in the mix for team canada selections... still a guy that any coach would feel comfortable throwing onto the ice for 25 mins a game while expecting to get a high level of NHL hockey out of him.

I am sure alot of fans here would boo Bouwmeister cause he isnt physical and wont rack up tons of points... but I wouldnt be one of them. I can appreciate very skilled players who go out and get the job done on talent alone.

I sure as hell wouldnt want a whole team of Bouwmeisters but our team has Chara who plays physical.. and McQuaid who does... Ference and Seidenberg who dont have size but have snarl to their game... and Hamilton who is a small hulk in developlent but doesnt play physical either. Hamilton is probably going to be a very similar player to Bouwmeister when all is said and done. We obviously hope Hamilton has more smarts then Bouwmeister but Hamilton is going to need to learn to play NHL quality shutdown d without being able to rely on his phsyical advantage at the NHL level cause he isnt playing against boys anymore. He is going to be against men now and if he isnt willing to rough it up then he will need to learn the same tricks Bouwmeister already has mastered

Im not saying for one minute we are trading for a Norris trophy guy here... but we might end up with the best damn number 3 depth guy in the entire league and that wont be so shabby. I say the cap works... we can afford it... make it so
I think I just threw up a little on that one. The guy is consistantly voted one of the most over rated players in the league by his peers for a reason as well and throwing out the 6 mil contract loses a little of it's lustre considering the same team that gave him that money just shelled out five for Wideman. The only reason he consistantly gets the nod for Team Canada is because he never makes the playoffs and is able to go. The guy never even made the playoffs in Junior Hockey. In fact, the guy has made the playoffs just once in 16 years of pro and junior hockey and had 0 goals and 0 assists in 18 games that year with Chi of the AHL. He has never broken the 50 point platteau in his 9 year NHL carreer and broken 40 just 3 times. He has been a plus player only 3 times in 16 years of pro and junior combined. The way I see it, if he is so great, he should be making players around him better. That Just simply hasn't happened.
He's way, way too much money for what he brings to the table. End of story. I seriously thought we had heard the last of the Bouwmeester to Boston talk when Calgary shelled out this rediculous contract for him. Guess I'll have to wait til he retires.

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07-01-2012, 01:21 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Bruinator View Post
I think I just threw up a little on that one. The guy is consistantly voted one of the most over rated players in the league by his peers for a reason as well and throwing out the 6 mil contract loses a little of it's lustre considering the same team that gave him that money just shelled out five for Wideman. The only reason he consistantly gets the nod for Team Canada is because he never makes the playoffs and is able to go. The guy never even made the playoffs in Junior Hockey. In fact, the guy has made the playoffs just once in 16 years of pro and junior hockey and had 0 goals and 0 assists in 18 games that year with Chi of the AHL. He has never broken the 50 point platteau in his 9 year NHL carreer and broken 40 just 3 times. He has been a plus player only 3 times in 16 years of pro and junior combined. The way I see it, if he is so great, he should be making players around him better. That Just simply hasn't happened.
He's way, way too much money for what he brings to the table. End of story. I seriously thought we had heard the last of the Bouwmeester to Boston talk when Calgary shelled out this rediculous contract for him. Guess I'll have to wait til he retires.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mul...content.1.html

Honestly, I'd take a few of these players on the Bruins in a heartbeat.

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07-01-2012, 01:32 AM
  #161
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J-Bo would step in here and instantly be the second best defenseman overall on the team. He'd upgrade mobility, be the team's best skater and first pass out of the zone. His defensive IQ is second only to Chara and his conditioning rivals that of Chara and Seidenberg. Three guys who can log 25 minutes or more if needed and have the defensive ability of those three players is huge, especially when injuries occur. Check out J-Bo's QOC numbers for dman with over 60 games played, 3rd and 11th in the league. The guy has had the misfortune of playing on two of the crappiest franchises in the league and being asked to be the number 1 guy when he's not. Playing under a structured Julien system and being coached by one of the brightest defensive minds in hockey as well as being surrounded with a leader and defenseman like Chara and solid number three guy like Seids would finally enhance J-Bo's skills and let him fit in a defensive rotation rather than be the lone man on the island.

Yes, J-Bo is overpaid but Boston has lacked a guy who has his skillset for years. He'd be the best skating dman the Bruins have had since Ray Bourque and the best blueline passer since Gonchar.

Here's a recent scouting report from The Hockey News, which is usually bang-on about players. I know some of you have claimed to watch enough of J-Bo to be able to judge his talent level, but I seriously question your ability to do this if some are calling him worse than Seidenberg defensively. All this seems moot however because Feaster claims he's not trading him...but I guess we'll see.

Quote:
ASSETS: Has incredible skating ability, a keen sense of when to join the rush, size and hockey smarts. A capable shutdown defender, he can log huge minutes. He's also a durable player.
FLAWS: Doesn't play enough of a physical game to dominate in that department, but that's never been his style of play. Lacks a big shot, but should do more offensively with the level of skill he possesses.
CAREER POTENTIAL: Mobile big-munute defenseman with stellar defensive ability.

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07-01-2012, 01:38 AM
  #162
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stats never tell the full story... but bouwmeister is being damned by some stats that are being used rather selectively here.

just for the record... since the age of 20 Jay has played 7 seasons without ever missing a game... on crappy teams... handling 25 mins per night and is a minus 10 in this time.

most dmen dont even play in the nhl at age 20 but jay was already his teams best dman at age 20 and has only been a minus 10 in all them mins on all those bad teams ever since.

and we say he cant produce offense but did you know he has 59 goals scored in those 7 seasons? from age 21 and on he as 54 goals in his last 6 seasons... despite how calgary used him so ineffectively

did you know calgary never once gave him even 3 mins per game on the pp... in his entire time there he averaged under 3 mins on the pp every single season. florida used him 3 and 4 mins per game on the pp and he scored 42 goals in 3 seasons for them. he scored 12 in 3 seasons for calgary. did he suddenly suck or did calgary not use him right?

i mean... if what you want is offense, dont you have to give a guy time on the PP? If you take away all the pp time wont you hurt a guys confidence? Bouwmeister has added 190 assists in his last 7 years so 244 points in 7 years. this is an average of 35 points per season. it isnt earth shattering numbers but do you know how many points seidenberg averaged in that time?

remember seidenberg is older then bouwmeister and was more experienced in this time...

seidenberg is a minus 12 in these 7 years despite playing on some real powerhouse teams. he has 26 goals and 132 assusts fir 158 points.

so 16 less goals... 58 fewer assists... an avrage of 23 points a game as opposed to 35 points per game.

i dont want to turn this into a slag seidberg contest because i really like the guy and think he played above and beyond all expectations in the playoffs the last 2 years... and i want him to be around as charas partner for the forseeable future cause this guy competes like a winner at playoff time and has good chemistry with our captain.

but we are really giving him a ton of props based on 2 very good playoffs with us and believe me this guy was being called crap by alot of us just 2 deadlines ago... same year we won the cup and he finally made believers out of us.

i dont want to trade him... he is a keeper... but he is not in jay bouwmeisters league as far as who might be a legit number 1 dman on other teams... neither guy would be my number 1 guy if i was building a dream cup contender... there are easily 16 guys in the league id pick over either of these guys...

neither guy would get a contact for 6.8 mill if i was handing out a contract to pending ufa this offseason. not for a multiyear deal anyhow...

i dont think it comes down to an either or situation here though... we can have both these guys and we need them both imho. the guy that is excessive is boychuck. mcquaid does the same stuff boychuck does at half the cost. chara does the same stuff 10 times better... or 100 times better.

boychuck did way better then we expected here... but his upper end is still quite limited what he will give you. he is a big hitter... a big shooter... not alot of foot speed... not the most fundamentally sound guy you would ever meet...

he will be a decent character vet for some team for years and years to come... a guy thtwill compete for you and give your team some backbone... but we dont need that as much as we need a guy like bouwmeister. Id probably be way happier to keep boychuck if he was a lh shot and we could keep him in place of ference... but he is a rh shot and so is mcquaid. i dont want to pair mcquaid and boychuck together. i dont want to pair boychuck and hamilton together.

putting two rh shots together when both are slow... or one is slow and one is a rookie... just isnt good.

i dont agree with feesters moves for calgary... i think they are dumb but im reading the tea leaves and i think i got them figured out.

calgary isnt going to move iginla... and that means they got to try to wiggle into the playoffs. they are surrounding iginla with as many friends as possible so they seem to be poised to resign him but making the playoffs is very important if they plan to do that.

making the playoffs is important if they want to keep selling out their building.

this is a team that missed the playoffs alot before sutter got to town... and they didnt sell out back then. this isnt a city that will support a loser very long.

calgary believes kipprusoff is good enough to give them a chance to win a round if they make the playoffs. and they might be right cause he can be real real real good.

giordano is looking like he can be a legit 1-2 dman... and hes signed for awhile now... thats good

but hes smallish

bordy is a kid that has talent... but he is small

now wideman is picked up to be the big shot on the pp... but hes small

chris butler is the only thing close to a top 4 guy they got that isnt small but he isnt huge either... and im not sure he is really a top 4 guy on any other team

obviously cory sarich just got resigned... anton babchuck are around and neither is small... but they arent really top 4 guys at this point in their careers.

boychuck would step right in as the third best dman for this team instantly and their biggest strongest regular dman too. Giordano and Brody both shoot left... Wideman shoots right... the missing member of the top 4 needs to be a rh side dman to compliment this group. Boychuck was born in edmonton but played his junior hockey for the hitmen. He not only has hometown appeal but his family is from alberta and that often helps a team keep a guy around when his contract is up.

calgary isnt trying to rebuild... they are trying to scratch their way into the playoffs to convince iginla to resign and to keep their fans buying tickets. its not how id do it, but trading bouwmeister for boychuck fits right in with their other decesions they are making.

i do believe we will have to add a pick or prospect but i wouldnt add that much extra... and id do it cause ive made my case a few times now that bouwmeister is getting unfair critism here and that real nhl talent evaluators still consider him to be a 25 min per night guy who is one of the elite talents in the nhl.

we got the cap room so lets use it and make the upgrade and give them the guy they need in exchange

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07-01-2012, 01:48 AM
  #163
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Seidenberg is the better player. I have seen alot of Jay-Bo. He is a very good defenseman. He has all the tools, however, he never seems to put them altogeather. Seidenberg might not have the offensive potential of Bowmeester (I say potential because Bowmeester has yet to produce at an elite offensive level) but he his much stronger in his own zone. He is a better shot blocker and descision maker. He was the best defensman for a Winning team during a stanley cup playoff run. Jay Bowmeester has never won at any level to date. He has great skill but it has not influenced his team or made the team around him better and as a result his teams have not won. I do believe he would help the Bruins but it astonishes me that people continue to underrate Seidenberg, especially Bruins fans. To win the stanley cup you need two top tier defenseman (especially if you are a defensive minded team like the Bruins) and Seidenberg proved that he is one of the elite shutdown defensman in the league. At times he was better than Chara and at times he continues to be. When your close to on par with arguably the best defensman in the NHL then you deserve credit over a guy that has routinely dissapointed. Again if Jay-Bo came to Boston I wouldn't complain but people need to remember a Defensman's first job is to keep the puck out of his team's net and Seidenberg does that with the best of them.
Seidenberg and J-Bo are different style of dman. Seids is one of the best shot block dman in the league and plays a more physical style combined with solid defensive IQ. He's steady, durable and reliable. But don't judge a dman based on things like shot blocking; for instance, J-Bo has more shot blocks in each of the past three years than Chara. J-Bo relies heavily on his skating and stick-work to get the job done and he does it at an upper tier level defensively. It's not his fault he's been on poorly coached and played defensive teams. This is why judging a player's worth by season stats like points/plus-minus/etc etc often paints an inaccurate picture of a player's worth and skills. Look at Seidenberg's numbers when he's been on poor teams as an example. Flip Seidenberg and J-Bo's teams and you'd see results similar to what you see for each guy on their respective new teams; you'd see Seid's flaws exposed on Calgary while you'd see J-Bo's skills enhanced with Boston.

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07-01-2012, 01:50 AM
  #164
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Jay-Bo to me is alot like Brad Stuart. They are similar in that they both were seen as do it all smooth skating defensman coming out of the WHL. Both were seen to have heavy shots and an offensive upside. While both players are very good neither became the force they were expected to be at the NHL level. Just imagine if Ottawa traded Jason Spezza for Jay Bowmeester, Curtis Glencross and Tom Kostopolous. I think the rage elliceted from Sens fans would be about the same as it was for Bruins fans when Big Joe was traded. I think that Bowmeester would still have a positive impact here much like Stuart did in Detroit as an elite 3-4th defensman on a strong, well coached team.
I agree with the comparison as far as expectations but I think Brad Stuart fell way shorter of what he was projected to be. J-Bo's not an elite #1 defenseman but he's better than a 4 for sure.

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07-01-2012, 02:02 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
stats never tell the full story... but bouwmeister is being damned by some stats that are being used rather selectively here.

just for the record... since the age of 20 Jay has played 7 seasons without ever missing a game... on crappy teams... handling 25 mins per night and is a minus 10 in this time.

most dmen dont even play in the nhl at age 20 but jay was already his teams best dman at age 20 and has only been a minus 10 in all them mins on all those bad teams ever since.

and we say he cant produce offense but did you know he has 59 goals scored in those 7 seasons? from age 21 and on he as 54 goals in his last 6 seasons... despite how calgary used him so ineffectively

did you know calgary never once gave him even 3 mins per game on the pp... in his entire time there he averaged under 3 mins on the pp every single season. florida used him 3 and 4 mins per game on the pp and he scored 42 goals in 3 seasons for them. he scored 12 in 3 seasons for calgary. did he suddenly suck or did calgary not use him right?

i mean... if what you want is offense, dont you have to give a guy time on the PP? If you take away all the pp time wont you hurt a guys confidence? Bouwmeister has added 190 assists in his last 7 years so 244 points in 7 years. this is an average of 35 points per season. it isnt earth shattering numbers but do you know how many points seidenberg averaged in that time?

remember seidenberg is older then bouwmeister and was more experienced in this time...

seidenberg is a minus 12 in these 7 years despite playing on some real powerhouse teams. he has 26 goals and 132 assusts fir 158 points.

so 16 less goals... 58 fewer assists... an avrage of 23 points a game as opposed to 35 points per game.

i dont want to turn this into a slag seidberg contest because i really like the guy and think he played above and beyond all expectations in the playoffs the last 2 years... and i want him to be around as charas partner for the forseeable future cause this guy competes like a winner at playoff time and has good chemistry with our captain.

but we are really giving him a ton of props based on 2 very good playoffs with us and believe me this guy was being called crap by alot of us just 2 deadlines ago... same year we won the cup and he finally made believers out of us.

i dont want to trade him... he is a keeper... but he is not in jay bouwmeisters league as far as who might be a legit number 1 dman on other teams... neither guy would be my number 1 guy if i was building a dream cup contender... there are easily 16 guys in the league id pick over either of these guys...

neither guy would get a contact for 6.8 mill if i was handing out a contract to pending ufa this offseason. not for a multiyear deal anyhow...

i dont think it comes down to an either or situation here though... we can have both these guys and we need them both imho. the guy that is excessive is boychuck. mcquaid does the same stuff boychuck does at half the cost. chara does the same stuff 10 times better... or 100 times better.

boychuck did way better then we expected here... but his upper end is still quite limited what he will give you. he is a big hitter... a big shooter... not alot of foot speed... not the most fundamentally sound guy you would ever meet...

he will be a decent character vet for some team for years and years to come... a guy thtwill compete for you and give your team some backbone... but we dont need that as much as we need a guy like bouwmeister. Id probably be way happier to keep boychuck if he was a lh shot and we could keep him in place of ference... but he is a rh shot and so is mcquaid. i dont want to pair mcquaid and boychuck together. i dont want to pair boychuck and hamilton together.

putting two rh shots together when both are slow... or one is slow and one is a rookie... just isnt good.

i dont agree with feesters moves for calgary... i think they are dumb but im reading the tea leaves and i think i got them figured out.

calgary isnt going to move iginla... and that means they got to try to wiggle into the playoffs. they are surrounding iginla with as many friends as possible so they seem to be poised to resign him but making the playoffs is very important if they plan to do that.

making the playoffs is important if they want to keep selling out their building.

this is a team that missed the playoffs alot before sutter got to town... and they didnt sell out back then. this isnt a city that will support a loser very long.

calgary believes kipprusoff is good enough to give them a chance to win a round if they make the playoffs. and they might be right cause he can be real real real good.

giordano is looking like he can be a legit 1-2 dman... and hes signed for awhile now... thats good

but hes smallish

bordy is a kid that has talent... but he is small

now wideman is picked up to be the big shot on the pp... but hes small

chris butler is the only thing close to a top 4 guy they got that isnt small but he isnt huge either... and im not sure he is really a top 4 guy on any other team

obviously cory sarich just got resigned... anton babchuck are around and neither is small... but they arent really top 4 guys at this point in their careers.

boychuck would step right in as the third best dman for this team instantly and their biggest strongest regular dman too. Giordano and Brody both shoot left... Wideman shoots right... the missing member of the top 4 needs to be a rh side dman to compliment this group. Boychuck was born in edmonton but played his junior hockey for the hitmen. He not only has hometown appeal but his family is from alberta and that often helps a team keep a guy around when his contract is up.

calgary isnt trying to rebuild... they are trying to scratch their way into the playoffs to convince iginla to resign and to keep their fans buying tickets. its not how id do it, but trading bouwmeister for boychuck fits right in with their other decesions they are making.

i do believe we will have to add a pick or prospect but i wouldnt add that much extra... and id do it cause ive made my case a few times now that bouwmeister is getting unfair critism here and that real nhl talent evaluators still consider him to be a 25 min per night guy who is one of the elite talents in the nhl.

we got the cap room so lets use it and make the upgrade and give them the guy they need in exchange
This is the truth. Boychuk for Bouwmeester would be a good move for both teams since Calgary's fans seem unhappy with Jay and Boychuk is from Alberta.

Chara and Seidenberg need a guy to take the pressure off them. Boychuk does not. Also if you add one more guy of Seids and Chara's level a lot of pressure is taken off Ference, McQuaid, and Hamilton immediately.

What would you want, two flawed second pairing D men (the better of whom got booed by our fans every time he touched the puck) for 9 mil a year...or a top pairing D man who isn't an allstar even though he is paid like one and skates better than anyone his size in hockey for 6.8.

When it comes to hockey players I'm always going to take a quarter instead of three dimes.

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07-01-2012, 02:04 AM
  #166
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I think I just threw up a little on that one. The guy is consistantly voted one of the most over rated players in the league by his peers for a reason as well and throwing out the 6 mil contract loses a little of it's lustre considering the same team that gave him that money just shelled out five for Wideman. The only reason he consistantly gets the nod for Team Canada is because he never makes the playoffs and is able to go. The guy never even made the playoffs in Junior Hockey. In fact, the guy has made the playoffs just once in 16 years of pro and junior hockey and had 0 goals and 0 assists in 18 games that year with Chi of the AHL. He has never broken the 50 point platteau in his 9 year NHL carreer and broken 40 just 3 times. He has been a plus player only 3 times in 16 years of pro and junior combined. The way I see it, if he is so great, he should be making players around him better. That Just simply hasn't happened.
He's way, way too much money for what he brings to the table. End of story. I seriously thought we had heard the last of the Bouwmeester to Boston talk when Calgary shelled out this rediculous contract for him. Guess I'll have to wait til he retires.

you know marcel dionne never won any cups but some fourth liners on those montreal canadien teams of the 1970s did. ray bourque was cupless here in boston while steve smith and charlie huddy won a few in edmonton

clark gillies is in the hof cause he won some cups... terry oreilly isnt because he didnt win one. i wonder if oreilly would have cost ny all those cups if he was on their team? would gillies have won us 4 straight if he was on our team?

its weird.. but sometimes its a team game and it kind of matters who plays with someone.

i mean gretzky was god in edmonton... and won alot of cups. then he left edmonton and didnt win any cups. did he suddenly suck? i remmber so many people saying yzerman sucked for like years and years and years in detroit cause they couldnt win jack all in the playoffs.

then detroit got some better players and yzerman became mister playoffs lol

its just weird how sometimes you need to be on a good team before you can have playoff success

and look at our own joe thornton. he had like busted ribs and tried to play against montreal right? did we give the kid credit for sucking it up and playing hurt? or did we cry over 0 points and call him a playoff loser?

he doesnt score 0 points in the playoffs for san jose. i dont think anyone is ever going to call joe one of the grittiest playoff warriors in the history of the nhl... in fact he seems to prefer surfing to playing hockey if you ask me. but his team has gone to the final 4... he has won a mvp award... he has led the league in scoring... thornton doesnt suck even if he only scored 0 points against montreal for us playing with his cracked rib.

people say phil kessel cant show up in big games too.. but look at his stats at playoff time if you want a laugh lol. sometimes we want our cake and get to eat it too

its just a sad reality that some people want punching bags to lay all of our frustrations onto. super talented players that dont play physical are the easiest guys to jump on if they get huge paychecks. its always popular to take a shot at one of these guys and a dozen other voices will rain down their support for your position.

but when some nhl gm who has his job based on knowing what he is doing is handing out some 5-6-7 mill per year contract to someone that he expects to keep him in his job... it is guys like this that get those contracts

when pro scouts come back with recommendations who to trade for that is worth those big contracts in order to keep their own jobs... it is guys like thornton and kessel and bouwmeister that get recommended.

when dream management teams get together to put together teams to repersent canada and the usa in olympics and world tournaments... it is guys like kessel and thorton and company that get the opportunities.

some fans can say these guys are overrated.. but the flip side to being overrated is called underrated. the exact same player can be overrated and underrated at the exact same time because both terms only reflect what someone thinks... not what actually is.

for example... if i say gretzky is arguably the greatest player in the history of the game for the first 10 years of his career... im probably underrating him. no one ever had a 10 year stretch of hockey that was as good as the first 10 years of gretzkys career. he was just so dominant.

but if i say gretzky was one of the greatest players in the history of the game over his last 10 years... then im grosly overrating him. his career after he left edmonton was rather ordinary. he was still one of the best passers in the game.. but he couldnt play defense... he couldnt hit anyone... he couldnt score alot of goals... his teams werent that great...

id have a hard time rating him one of the top 5 centers in the game over his last 10 years... let alone one of the greatest players ever in that time period.

i wouldnt have taken him over oates in the same time period.

so you got to be careful with the terms overrated underrated cause they mean way more about the person using them then the person they are being applied to.

bergeron is really overrated by alot of bruin fans... but hes also our best forward right now. joe corvo was really underrated by alot of bruin fans last year but he was probably the worst regular on the team too.

just because you are underrated doesnt mean you dont suck... and just because you are overrated doesnt mean you arent one hell of a good player.

it only means peoples image of you is unrealistic compared to what it should be.

my image of bouwmeister is now on record... maybe im overrating him... but maybe im underrating him too. i dont care in either reguard because all im concerned about is how he plays the game. i like that i will get 25 mins from him and that he is a lh shot. i like that he has a track record of being able to successfully play against top opposition if pushed into that role. i like that he has a track record of popping in 13-15 goals a season when used on a pp as the number 1 guy. i like that he doesnt get dinged for alot of penalties despite never playing for a trap team... never getting a ton of support from his teammates.

i like that he doesnt get hurt... doesnt miss games... i like that he has a good shot... that he makes crisp accurate passes... that he can rush the puck...

i like that he is still on the south side of age 30 cause i know most dmen only hit their prime at this age. i like that skating ability cause dmen that skate that effortlessly can stay studs till they are 40.

i think playoff success is a measure of a team... and ill grant you bouwmeister might be a bad luck charm cause hes had some real bad misfourtune of playing for some really sucky teams.

i never once said he is good enough to lead a team to the promised land all by himself... but even bobby orr couldnt win the cup every single season. and we know bourque never won a cup for us too.

it sometimes is only a simple measure of a team moreso then a player if there is a lack of playoff success

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07-01-2012, 02:12 AM
  #167
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I think I just threw up a little on that one. The guy is consistantly voted one of the most over rated players in the league by his peers for a reason as well and throwing out the 6 mil contract loses a little of it's lustre considering the same team that gave him that money just shelled out five for Wideman. The only reason he consistantly gets the nod for Team Canada is because he never makes the playoffs and is able to go. The guy never even made the playoffs in Junior Hockey. In fact, the guy has made the playoffs just once in 16 years of pro and junior hockey and had 0 goals and 0 assists in 18 games that year with Chi of the AHL. He has never broken the 50 point platteau in his 9 year NHL carreer and broken 40 just 3 times. He has been a plus player only 3 times in 16 years of pro and junior combined. The way I see it, if he is so great, he should be making players around him better. That Just simply hasn't happened.
He's way, way too much money for what he brings to the table. End of story. I seriously thought we had heard the last of the Bouwmeester to Boston talk when Calgary shelled out this rediculous contract for him. Guess I'll have to wait til he retires.

Overrated is really misleading. People are rating him as a #1, stud defenseman. Yes, he's overrated. People are rating him as a player worth almost $7 million annually. Yes, he's overrated. If you are looking at him as a #3 defenseman on a very good team, who can log 20 minutes a night and play well in those 20 minutes, that's not overrating him. If anything, #3 might be underrating him. You can say he's overpaid, and I don't think anyone would argue with you. But my thought process is that if Thomas is taking up $5 million in dead cap space, and you could swap that for Bouwmeester who makes $2 million more in cap dollars, he's a great piece to have.

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07-01-2012, 03:29 AM
  #168
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Bouwmeester could be a nice addition to the B's defense. Pairing him with Hamilton (when Dougie progresses enough to be in the top 4) could be dynamic.

How to acquire him and affording his cap hit are the big challenges.

I have seen Boychuk and Seidenberg offered in trade here for JB, but both of them have NTC's. Ference and McQuaid do not have NTC's.

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07-01-2012, 04:29 AM
  #169
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A very E-Klown-esque rumour...

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07-01-2012, 05:55 AM
  #170
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If you want to Guarantee the Bruins will not win the Cup next year the easiest way to do so would be to add Jaybo. His career playoff totals are 0 goals 0 assists 0 points and 14 penalty minutes in 18 AHL playoff games during the lockout.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=46419
It isn`t about his stats, although for that cash one would hope them to be much higher, it`s all about the money, Jaybo eats alot of minutes and is very good at it, but with that pricetag, I want a d-man who is a beast in all 3 zones.

I like his game, hate his price, also, a product of the system or lack thereof in Calgary, one of teams in this league that appear to have absolutely no clear game plan

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07-01-2012, 06:43 AM
  #171
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He's been trying to make a case for Bouwmeester for 2 years.

I've watched in the neighbourhood of 40 Flame games over the last couple of years, the guy is not that good. He looks the part, big, long strides but he has ZERO physical presence offers almost no offense (even though he has a great skill set) and wilts when he is pressured and hit. Bouwmeester would be the least physical defenseman on the roster the moment he walked in the door and he offers almost none of what we need from the backend...a powerplay quarterback.

If we traded Boychuk to clear room for him I'd be very upset...if we traded Seidenberg to clear cap to get him I'd want Chiarelli committed to an asylum.
QFT.

Bouwmeester reminds me of a beautiful racehorse who everyone puts money on because dang, he LOOKS so good. And he can't win a thing.

Thankfully all this talk is moot because if Chiarelli even started talking about it, you know Neely would check his office for pods.

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07-01-2012, 08:06 AM
  #172
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QFT.

Bouwmeester reminds me of a beautiful racehorse who everyone puts money on because dang, he LOOKS so good. And he can't win a thing.

Thankfully all this talk is moot because if Chiarelli even started talking about it, you know Neely would check his office for pods.
Yes, yes....we know you want to keep the band together. There are only so many ways to say it.

I think your assesment of J-Bo is wrong. Everyone expected him to be a Norris trophy winner, big time point producer. He just ended up being a very, very good defenseman who has fallen short of expectations. Equating him to a horse that "cant win a thing" isnt fair. He is a very good player but just didnt turn into the guy people thought he would and he is slightly overpaid.

If this were a deal that revolved around moving TT's out I would be all over it....my only hesitation is that we would have his contract an additional year and with the unknowns about the cap that would give me pause.

But to infer that he wouldnt represent a major upgrade to our defense is silly. He is a very good D who can play big time minutes.

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07-01-2012, 08:20 AM
  #173
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A left-handed d-man who never gets hurt, plays 30 minutes/night, put up 40-50 points/season before calgary. Can play PP & PK. Allow either seidenberg or dougie to play with chara. Only 2 yrs. Left on the deal. Even overrated & overpaid, sign me up. As long as the trade is discounted to account for his K, then yes please.

Players get stigmas for never becoming what they were expected to be, but that's a very far cry from being useless. He could be exactly what bruins need on the backed, and substantially improve transition while not having all the defensive ineptitude of corvo kabs or wideman.

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07-01-2012, 08:26 AM
  #174
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Its a big contract for two years, considering the free agents the Bruins have to sign (or account for) next offseason.

Also, I find it utterly ridiculous that the OP "keeps hearing these rumors" yet nobody else has. Eklund? Give me a break. Post a link next time.

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07-01-2012, 09:10 AM
  #175
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The only way I can this happening would be if the Bruins were planning on sending JBo to Providence. One bad contract for another, but one they can hide in the AHL and not affect their cap.

However, where's the motivation for the Bruins. They get nothing and they help Calgary out tremendously.

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