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Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation - Off Season 2012-13 (Part IX)

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Old
08-09-2012, 01:36 PM
  #651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
Excellent ad hominem.

I think the core is there, and I believe, based on TNSE's track record, that they can pull it off. When you combine the season ticket renewals that will be coming up in that time period, the maturation of the core assets, and TNSE's statement that they will spend when appropriate, then yes, I do believe a Stanley Cup is possible with a reworked configuration of this team in that time frame.

That said, you are also welcome to your own opinion - I won't denigrate you for it.
Totally agree. The right moves, the right signings and the right drafting needs to done, and Chevy has that all in hand. I've been satisfied. Other then that, yes we have the pieces moving forwards. It'll prolly be closer to 4 or 5, but it could definitely happen.

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08-09-2012, 01:40 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
I'm thinking long term here. I keep hearing how we have so much depth at center. First off, I don't believe we currently have a bonafide #1 center. Duchene would be that guy for us. Secondly, jokinen, antropov, wellwood will likely not be here in 2-3 years. Therefore we are crossing our fingers that burmistrov and scheifele will mature into grade "a" centers. That'll be all we really have for top tier centers. Personally I think Burmi has a chance at getting there, but scheifele, no. His skating is to weak. Very slow. And that's the hardest tangible attribute for a player to improve on. I'd trade him now also while his value is at it's peak.

It's not a matter of what we need positionally right now, but rather getting great value for one of our best players (cause I believe Kane won't be here long anyway). Once we hit the point where Kane asks for a trade, teams will play hardball and won't give max value for him.

Finally, if you think the jets are 2-4 years away from a stanly cup, remind me to never trust your "knowledgable" opinions again.
The issue i take with your current proposals and angle, is that you have picked a number of hypotheticals and hitched the wagon to the completely.

1: Kane doesn't want to be a Jet.
2: scheifele will not become a 1st ine center
3: Scheifele and Burmi will both be at max be mid range 2nd line centers (i would argue having center depth of 2 high range second line centers (scheife, burmi) and 1 mid range (little) would more then compensate for a lack of a "true" first line center.

In these circumstances, I could understand making the move, but even then, from asset management(which you seem convinced is key such as moving Kane before he has "leverage") would dictate you move Kane for a similar piece who "wants" to be here, not a center.

Even if Scheifele and burmi both max out as second line centers. That means we have three second line centers and that is a deep team.

I would also disagree with you on where the jets stand as a team. This team is not very far from pushing, and should most definitly be in the mix for the cup by year 4. We are in a very similar situation to where LA was 3-4 years ago.

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08-09-2012, 01:44 PM
  #653
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Hey Daddylonglegs...
I hope you don't get offended by some of these peoples comments (or what I'm about to say) but you're making it hard to have a possitive/constructive conversation (although others, myself included, haven't helped 100%).
We seem to run into this with new members and then they eventually learn the ropes on how these debates can work out without the </3.
The problem I have is that you are dissing some players who might not reach their potential while saying others would. That's fine thing to speculate but you don't know. We can talk about how different people have greater chances, but this is still an opinion.

For example, both Corey Pronman and the HF scouts have decided that both Scheifele and Burmistrov have been taking the right steps in raising their stock in become possible 1st line centres. So, I could say that I align myself with them and agree. You can disagree and may be right, but this isn't a fact and you shouldn't use it as a fact.

Other examples are Kane vs Duchene upside (I'd actually allign with you D>K but still we don't know for sure yet; it's only speculation), Kane wants out but Duchene would be a Jet forever, etc.

You can speculate but don't act as if they are facts, because unless you have some super inside information (which a lot of media/analysts do sometimes), you are just guessing (and usually media/analysts are still guessing too).

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08-09-2012, 02:17 PM
  #654
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I'm just going to come out and say it.. E.Kane for Duchene is a stupid trade that doesn't make either team "better". "Kane is going to suck in 4 years" or "Duchene is going to be better in 4 yrs" are not valid arguments.

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08-09-2012, 02:24 PM
  #655
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Yawn.....this debate is getting boring. Kane will resign shortly and be a star for the Jets.

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08-09-2012, 02:33 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by puck stoppa View Post
Yawn.....this debate is getting boring. Kane will resign shortly and be a star for the Jets.
I agree with you. It'll come outta nowhere.

Boom: Jet for the next 6 years.

IMHO.

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08-09-2012, 02:42 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post

I would also disagree with you on where the jets stand as a team. This team is not very far from pushing, and should most definitely be in the mix for the cup by year 4. We are in a very similar situation to where LA was 3-4 years ago.
I agree with you except I'd rather have Quick than Pavelec and I think that's a huge difference. Don't get me wrong, my Jets 2.0 jersey has Pavelec's name and number on it so my hope is that he'll get there too but he has to improve.

I love the core of the team and I'm happy with the drafting they've done. I trust the organization to apply a hybrid Moose/Wolves philosophy at the NHL level and that should produce a winner in time.

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08-09-2012, 03:12 PM
  #658
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I agree with you except I'd rather have Quick than Pavelec and I think that's a huge difference. Don't get me wrong, my Jets 2.0 jersey has Pavelec's name and number on it so my hope is that he'll get there too but he has to improve.

(...)
He's got the athleticism, now he needs to improve his positional play so he doesn't have to use it so much.

That's similar to Quick, IMHO: he improved when he improved his positioning. He's still very athletic and "Quick", but his improved positioning is a big reason for his great play this last year.

Easier to fix positioning, than improve athletisicm, thankfully.

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08-09-2012, 03:28 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
He's got the athleticism, now he needs to improve his positional play so he doesn't have to use it so much.

That's similar to Quick, IMHO: he improved when he improved his positioning. He's still very athletic and "Quick", but his improved positioning is a big reason for his great play this last year.

Easier to fix positioning, than improve athletisicm, thankfully.
A big difference:

Quick was better statistically at every stage of his of his career.

Pavi hasn't put up a big save percentage number since his first year of junior.

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08-09-2012, 03:40 PM
  #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
He's got the athleticism, now he needs to improve his positional play so he doesn't have to use it so much.

That's similar to Quick, IMHO: he improved when he improved his positioning. He's still very athletic and "Quick", but his improved positioning is a big reason for his great play this last year.

Easier to fix positioning, than improve athletisicm, thankfully.
I know very little about our current goalie coach... but a question to ask: is he the best for Pavelec?
Pavelec's largest weakness is his positioning but thanks to his athleticism he can sometimes catch up (which makes the highlight saves)... but this can't always happen and we can't depend on it.
Pav's issues with positioning most likely come from that he's had very little goalie coaching throughout his life (both in Czech and the AHL). If he doesn't improve this year to a more par SV%, I'd look there first.

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08-09-2012, 04:42 PM
  #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
He's got the athleticism, now he needs to improve his positional play so he doesn't have to use it so much.

That's similar to Quick, IMHO: he improved when he improved his positioning. He's still very athletic and "Quick", but his improved positioning is a big reason for his great play this last year.

Easier to fix positioning, than improve athletisicm, thankfully.
Yeah, Pavelec has nowhere near the athleticism that Quick has. Not even close. That's no slight on Pavelec, Quick is perhaps the fastest goalie ever post to post, IMO.

For Pavelec his positioning needs a little work no doubt, but IMO his troubles are mental. He just has mental lapses from time to time. He has trouble staying consistant over the entire season.

Now part of that is, IMO, that Noel has no freaking clue how to manage goalies. He makes stupid stupid decisions about who to play when, and that will only get worse this year, IMO, unless Dekanich/Montoya steps up huge in the backup role and gains Noel's confidence really early.

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08-09-2012, 04:50 PM
  #663
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MAF is the fastest post to post that I've ever seen.
MAF is the fastest to allow lots of goals in any and every post season.

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08-09-2012, 04:51 PM
  #664
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I would also disagree with you on where the jets stand as a team. This team is not very far from pushing, and should most definitly be in the mix for the cup by year 4. We are in a very similar situation to where LA was 3-4 years ago.
Four years ago the Kings were drafting Drew Doughty 2nd overall. They had Kopitar as a legitimate 1st line C. Not all that similiar, IMO. They were much worse than we are now, but with many more longterm pieces and superior drafting during the rebuild time of 07-09. Our team is much older than the Kings were and during our rebuild time of 08-10 we don't appear to have drafted that well.

We need to start pushing for playoffs now, because the window is closing for us much much quicker than Kings did. We lots and lots of players that are only 1-3 years away from UFA. We should be a playoff team this year, a SC contender by 14-15 at the absolute latest. Any longer than that and the core of this team will start to come apart.

If you look at the other teams that have won the cup since 09, they all had rapid improvement to playoffs, 1-2 years of learning how to win in playoffs, then SC. Meanwhile we have been trending water between 10-12 in the East for 4 years now. We cannot afford to be patient anymore, this window is closing fast people.

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08-09-2012, 05:07 PM
  #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Four years ago the Kings were drafting Drew Doughty 2nd overall. They had Kopitar as a legitimate 1st line C. Not all that similiar, IMO. They were much worse than we are now, but with many more longterm pieces and superior drafting during the rebuild time of 07-09. Our team is much older than the Kings were and during our rebuild time of 08-10 we don't appear to have drafted that well.

We need to start pushing for playoffs now, because the window is closing for us much much quicker than Kings did. We lots and lots of players that are only 1-3 years away from UFA. We should be a playoff team this year, a SC contender by 14-15 at the absolute latest. Any longer than that and the core of this team will start to come apart.

If you look at the other teams that have won the cup since 09, they all had rapid improvement to playoffs, 1-2 years of learning how to win in playoffs, then SC. Meanwhile we have been trending water between 10-12 in the East for 4 years now. We cannot afford to be patient anymore, this window is closing fast people.
Sorry holden maybe my timeline was off or I didn't explain myself clearly. If I were to expand on my vague statement it would have been essentially what you've just said

LA was a team full of young talent that wasn't getting anywhere. then they "snuck" into the playoffs. then they made the playoffs. then they won the cup. I essentially mean this year we need to "sneak" into the playoffs and be contending for the cup within three seasons.

Basically i completely agree with you, I just did not articulate it well enough.

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08-09-2012, 05:17 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Four years ago the Kings were drafting Drew Doughty 2nd overall. They had Kopitar as a legitimate 1st line C. Not all that similiar, IMO. They were much worse than we are now, but with many more longterm pieces and superior drafting during the rebuild time of 07-09. Our team is much older than the Kings were and during our rebuild time of 08-10 we don't appear to have drafted that well.

We need to start pushing for playoffs now, because the window is closing for us much much quicker than Kings did. We lots and lots of players that are only 1-3 years away from UFA. We should be a playoff team this year, a SC contender by 14-15 at the absolute latest. Any longer than that and the core of this team will start to come apart.

If you look at the other teams that have won the cup since 09, they all had rapid improvement to playoffs, 1-2 years of learning how to win in playoffs, then SC. Meanwhile we have been trending water between 10-12 in the East for 4 years now. We cannot afford to be patient anymore, this window is closing fast people.
I don't like these comparisons because I think they are kind of silly. There is more than one way to build and the goal is to be a perenial contender, not to get there once. The goal should be to have a constant flow of prospects come into league to build around.

These are the holdovers from 2008-09 and their ages at that time:

Drew Doughty (19)
Brad Richardson (23)
Jarret Stoll (26)
Kevin Westgarth (24)
Justin Williams (26)
Anze Kopitar (21)
Dustin Brown (24)
Matt Greene (25)
Trevor Lewis (21)
Johnathon Quick (22)

I think I got that right. Were their core players that much younger?

What if the core players that get the Jets on a run are Kane, Burmi, Bogo, Scheifele, Telegin, Trouba etc. I wouldn't go setting deadlines. The idea is to be competetive every year and get lucky once in a while.

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08-12-2012, 07:30 PM
  #667
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Just going off recent trends of post lockout Cup winners, our nucleus really is only missing one big, "heavy lifting" piece. That's the #1C. LA, Bos, Chi, Pit and Det all had at least two centers on the roster that were a)top ten C in the league at the time or b) a Selke calibre center. Or both..

Complimentary pieces are going to change every year somewhat. But what I see our future tied to is the development of Burmistrov and Scheifele. At some point in their careers, they are likely going to have to be able to go toe-to-toe with crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Stamkos and co. Or at least be able to somewhat neutralize them to allow other roster strengths to e the teams bread and butter. Like Zetterberg vs Crosby in the finals. Or more recently Kesler against Toews, etc.

My guess would be after this year we will have a pretty good idea of what kind of players Burmistrov is most successful with. Maybe Kane is included in that, maybe not. But either way surrounding him with players to maximize his talents seems to me to be a priority in the near future. Likewise with Scheifele in a couple of years. Our core is so young we have a few years to figure it out I'd say.

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08-12-2012, 08:55 PM
  #668
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MAF is the fastest post to post that I've ever seen.
Supah, I would respectfully submit you have not seen much of Kiprusoff for the past 10 years...sick legs

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08-12-2012, 09:40 PM
  #669
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Pronman has been watching Schiefele, in both the AHL playoffs and this Can-Rus series. He stated:
Quote:
When I saw Scheifele in the AHL last season his skating seemed notably improved. Seeing something along the same lines today.
Is Scheifele ready for full NHL role:
Quote:
No. Think if he plays, probably very sheltered
Also, re: Sutter
Quote:
Lukas Sutter may not be a true offensive player, but he's got hockey sense. Beauty pass to set up a Morgan Rielly goal.

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08-12-2012, 10:12 PM
  #670
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Good to hear Scheifele making progress. He still needs to be a more assertive player in general I think. At this point it looks like another year of junior is probably in the cards. Cool with me.

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08-13-2012, 12:55 PM
  #671
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So are the chances high that Scheifele would make the team next year as a 2nd line center? Personally, I've always looked at him staying in Juniors for 2 years before making the jump to the NHL for a full year, but others have looked at him going to the AHL for a year instead of the NHL.

Personally, I like the idea of him completely skipping the AHL, and isn't that really not a great possibility, with waivers and all? Not entirely sure how that works, but I would imagine that system would still probably be the same in the new CBA, whenever that decides to roll around.

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08-13-2012, 01:05 PM
  #672
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Its either NHL or OHL next year, 19 year olds cannot play in the AHL. Schief will be sent back for another year of Junior. I think he will make the squad the year after and be an instant contributor. I see him becoming a Travis Zajac type player with maybe more offensive upside and I think he will match Zajac's rookie season of 17 goals and 25 assists for 42 points, and have over 20 goals and 60 points in his second year.

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08-13-2012, 01:05 PM
  #673
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Don't they burn a year of ELC if he plays in the AHL?

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08-13-2012, 01:11 PM
  #674
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Don't they burn a year of ELC if he plays in the AHL?
Yes but, because of his age, he won't be AHL elgible until 2013-2014 season.

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08-13-2012, 01:36 PM
  #675
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Its either NHL or OHL next year, 19 year olds cannot play in the AHL. Schief will be sent back for another year of Junior. I think he will make the squad the year after and be an instant contributor. I see him becoming a Travis Zajac type player with maybe more offensive upside and I think he will match Zajac's rookie season of 17 goals and 25 assists for 42 points, and have over 20 goals and 60 points in his second year.

This is what I don't get, he got to play for a few games during the IceCaps playoff push once his OHL season was over, is there a certain game limit?

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