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Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation - Off Season 2012-13 (Part IX)

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Old
08-25-2012, 04:22 PM
  #776
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
I think if we could get Edler and Raymond back for Kane we would be a better team in all honesty. Edler's value took a tumble last year, but he fills a top 4, solid defenseman role that the Jets need. Edler-Bogosian would be an outstanding duo I think. Raymond can't make up all of Kane's 30 goals, but he can score 20 easily, has similar if not better wheels, plays both wings, and is a good penalty killer to boot, improving another weakness on the team. I like the idea of trading a player whom True North does not have a relationship with for two guys the organization helped groom, and who could have long careers with the Jets.
Soon to be UFA Edler and Raymond? Jebus.

Raymond is a third liner who's put up good numbers playing with great players.

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08-25-2012, 04:49 PM
  #777
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Soon to be UFA Edler and Raymond? Jebus.

Raymond is a third liner who's put up good numbers playing with great players.
I'm pretty sure that statement should not be taken serious Huff. Edler and Raymond? No thanks.

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08-25-2012, 04:53 PM
  #778
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I'm pretty sure that statement should not be taken serious Huff. Edler and Raymond? No thanks.
You would hope so, but there have been some posters here that seem to be willing to accept much less than what would seem like market value for a 20 year old 30 goal scorer.

I wonder if someone needs to post that short list of 20 year old 30 goal scorers every time someone posts a garbage offer, or every time someone is happy to trade Kane for scraps because they just want to trade Kane.

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08-25-2012, 06:26 PM
  #779
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Soon to be UFA Edler and Raymond? Jebus.

Raymond is a third liner who's put up good numbers playing with great players.
If you re-sign Edler, who you probably couldn't sign on the open market in a bidding war, you have a legit top 3 d-man, who could very well be our future #1. Being so close to a UFA is a risk, but if you could negotiate with his agent for an entire season, and make him feel welcome, you fill a hole in the organization that nobody on the horizon is going to fill...and our defense is not very good, if you didn't notice.

You can trash Raymond, but it is no coincidence that after his injury the Canucks collapsed against Boston in the finals. He scored 25 3 seasons ago. Great players, Kesler, Samuelsson, Higgins, Hansen, Jeff Tambellini? Sure thing. Taken off Kesler's line, Kesler's production dropped. Coming off injury he too slumped last year, not surprisingly. I think he can be a legit top six forward for someone else besides the Canucks, his skating is that good.

Kane's a good player, is he a franchise player? Maybe, maybe not. Turns over the puck alot, not a good passer at all. Maybe he'll improve with time and coaching, maybe he won't I'd rather have multi-faceted players, than one dimensional players.

I still stand by my assertion that the 2 would make the organization better, maybe it's not the right trade, [mod]


Last edited by Jet: 08-25-2012 at 09:28 PM. Reason: keep the personal stuff out of it.
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08-25-2012, 06:36 PM
  #780
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If you re-sign Edler, who you probably couldn't sign on the open market in a bidding war, you have a legit top 3 d-man, who could very well be our future #1. Being so close to a UFA is a risk, but if you could negotiate with his agent for an entire season, and make him feel welcome, you fill a hole in the organization that nobody on the horizon is going to fill...and our defense is not very good, if you didn't notice.

You can trash Raymond, but it is no coincidence that after his injury the Canucks collapsed against Boston in the finals. He scored 25 3 seasons ago. Great players, Kesler, Samuelsson, Higgins, Hansen, Jeff Tambellini? Sure thing. Taken off Kesler's line, Kesler's production dropped. Coming off injury he too slumped last year, not surprisingly. I think he can be a legit top six forward for someone else besides the Canucks, his skating is that good.

Kane's a good player, is he a franchise player? Maybe, maybe not. Turns over the puck alot, not a good passer at all. Maybe he'll improve with time and coaching, maybe he won't I'd rather have multi-faceted players, than one dimensional players.

I still stand by my assertion that the 2 would make the organization better, [mod]
[mod]
In regards to Macy a d Edler...there's alot "ifs" there to trade your best goal scorer for.


Last edited by Jet: 08-25-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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08-25-2012, 07:46 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
If you re-sign Edler, who you probably couldn't sign on the open market in a bidding war, you have a legit top 3 d-man, who could very well be our future #1. Being so close to a UFA is a risk, but if you could negotiate with his agent for an entire season, and make him feel welcome, you fill a hole in the organization that nobody on the horizon is going to fill...and our defense is not very good, if you didn't notice.

You can trash Raymond, but it is no coincidence that after his injury the Canucks collapsed against Boston in the finals. He scored 25 3 seasons ago. Great players, Kesler, Samuelsson, Higgins, Hansen, Jeff Tambellini? Sure thing. Taken off Kesler's line, Kesler's production dropped. Coming off injury he too slumped last year, not surprisingly. I think he can be a legit top six forward for someone else besides the Canucks, his skating is that good.

Kane's a good player, is he a franchise player? Maybe, maybe not. Turns over the puck alot, not a good passer at all. Maybe he'll improve with time and coaching, maybe he won't I'd rather have multi-faceted players, than one dimensional players.

I still stand by my assertion that the 2 would make the organization better, maybe it's not the right trade, [mod]
Mason Raymond's best year still pales in comparison to Kane's last year. 5v5 G/60, 5v5 A1/60, 5v5 P/60... everything except for corsi (but corsi for Canucks is a story in itself with how they play their lines).
Also Kane's main line mates were Burmi and one of Antro/Welly so I'd say line-mate difference is negligible.


NameYearPOS GP TOI/60 CORSION RelCORSI CORSIQoC RelQoC OZS G/60 A1/60 A2/60 P/60
EKANE 2011-2012 LW 74 14.74 6.21 8.7 -0.736 -0.028 57.6 1.26 0.55 0.60 2.42
MRAYMOND 2011-2012 LW 55 12.85 2.72 -0.1 0.144 0.475 47.9 0.68 0.59 0.25 1.53
EKANE 2010-2011 LW 73 14.07 -0.64 0.7 0.344 0.499 54.5 0.76 0.82 0.23 1.81
MRAYMOND 2010-2011 LW 70 12.89 18.09 17.5 -0.545 0.262 53.0 0.73 0.60 0.73 2.06

Raymond 2010-2011 is most comparable to how Kane was used last season competition, line-mates, etc. Kane almost doubles him in scoring and is about equal for primary assists.

EDIT: also remember that with how AV runs his lines almost any player in their top6 (or top 2 for D) will score more on the Canucks then they would on another team


Last edited by Jet: 08-25-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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Old
08-25-2012, 08:52 PM
  #782
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I posted this on the Leafs sub-forum, and trade-forum, fire away...

To Winnipeg:
Joffery Lupul
Mikhail Grabovski
Cody Franson
2013 2nd Round Pick

To Toronto:
Evander Kane

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Old
08-25-2012, 09:15 PM
  #783
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Originally Posted by officialmark7 View Post
I posted this on the Leafs sub-forum, and trade-forum, fire away...

To Winnipeg:
Joffery Lupul
Mikhail Grabovski
Cody Franson
2013 2nd Round Pick

To Toronto:
Evander Kane
No thanks

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Old
08-25-2012, 09:26 PM
  #784
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
If you re-sign Edler, who you probably couldn't sign on the open market in a bidding war, you have a legit top 3 d-man, who could very well be our future #1. Being so close to a UFA is a risk, but if you could negotiate with his agent for an entire season, and make him feel welcome, you fill a hole in the organization that nobody on the horizon is going to fill...and our defense is not very good, if you didn't notice.

You can trash Raymond, but it is no coincidence that after his injury the Canucks collapsed against Boston in the finals. He scored 25 3 seasons ago. Great players, Kesler, Samuelsson, Higgins, Hansen, Jeff Tambellini? Sure thing. Taken off Kesler's line, Kesler's production dropped. Coming off injury he too slumped last year, not surprisingly. I think he can be a legit top six forward for someone else besides the Canucks, his skating is that good.

Kane's a good player, is he a franchise player? Maybe, maybe not. Turns over the puck alot, not a good passer at all. Maybe he'll improve with time and coaching, maybe he won't I'd rather have multi-faceted players, than one dimensional players.

I still stand by my assertion that the 2 would make the organization better, maybe it's not the right trade, [mod]
Ok, how about Edler and Kesler for Kane.A trade you would never make just like Kane for Edler and Raymond is poor trade for the Jets. [mod]


Last edited by Jet: 08-25-2012 at 09:31 PM. Reason: leave moderating to mods, please.
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Old
08-25-2012, 09:44 PM
  #785
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Originally Posted by officialmark7 View Post
I posted this on the Leafs sub-forum, and trade-forum, fire away...

To Winnipeg:
Joffery Lupul
Mikhail Grabovski
Cody Franson
2013 2nd Round Pick

To Toronto:
Evander Kane
Horrible. If Kane went to TO I don't see much there that I would want in return besides Gardiner and Frattin. And I'm still a Leafs fan (well, number 2 team, but still)

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08-25-2012, 09:51 PM
  #786
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
If you re-sign Edler, who you probably couldn't sign on the open market in a bidding war, you have a legit top 3 d-man, who could very well be our future #1. Being so close to a UFA is a risk, but if you could negotiate with his agent for an entire season, and make him feel welcome, you fill a hole in the organization that nobody on the horizon is going to fill...and our defense is not very good, if you didn't notice.

You can trash Raymond, but it is no coincidence that after his injury the Canucks collapsed against Boston in the finals. He scored 25 3 seasons ago. Great players, Kesler, Samuelsson, Higgins, Hansen, Jeff Tambellini? Sure thing. Taken off Kesler's line, Kesler's production dropped. Coming off injury he too slumped last year, not surprisingly. I think he can be a legit top six forward for someone else besides the Canucks, his skating is that good.

Kane's a good player, is he a franchise player? Maybe, maybe not. Turns over the puck alot, not a good passer at all. Maybe he'll improve with time and coaching, maybe he won't I'd rather have multi-faceted players, than one dimensional players.

I still stand by my assertion that the 2 would make the organization better, maybe it's not the right trade, [mod]
There is no guarantee that Edler resigns. So all of that make him feel welcome stuff means nothing if he walks. Either he's signed before the deal goes down or his value is that of a soon to be UFA. Which is to say greatly lessened. A GM who trades a 21 year old who just scored 30 goals and is under team control for at least 4 more seasons on the "hope" that the best piece coming back is going to resign needs to be fired.

Raymond did score 25 3 years ago. And he scored 11 the year before that, 15 two years ago, and 10 last year. He's averaged 14 goals a season over his 5 seasons. (Granted that's with a 49 game and 55 game season in there). That's still not anywhere close to 2nd line player caliber. He's nowhere near skilled enough to be in the top 6, and not a very physical presence on the bottom 6. And he's an upcoming UFA as well.

So Kane for 2 soon to be UFA's? If you were the GM of the Jets you would seriously consider that? 28 teams in the league would offer twice that, and pretty much every Canuck fan would as well I would think.

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08-26-2012, 12:53 AM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
There is no guarantee that Edler resigns. So all of that make him feel welcome stuff means nothing if he walks. Either he's signed before the deal goes down or his value is that of a soon to be UFA. Which is to say greatly lessened. A GM who trades a 21 year old who just scored 30 goals and is under team control for at least 4 more seasons on the "hope" that the best piece coming back is going to resign needs to be fired.

Raymond did score 25 3 years ago. And he scored 11 the year before that, 15 two years ago, and 10 last year. He's averaged 14 goals a season over his 5 seasons. (Granted that's with a 49 game and 55 game season in there). That's still not anywhere close to 2nd line player caliber. He's nowhere near skilled enough to be in the top 6, and not a very physical presence on the bottom 6. And he's an upcoming UFA as well.

So Kane for 2 soon to be UFA's? If you were the GM of the Jets you would seriously consider that? 28 teams in the league would offer twice that, and pretty much every Canuck fan would as well I would think.
The post I quoted originally talked about getting Edler or Hamhuis for Kane. I'm a fan of Edler, and I wanted to talk about getting players the organization knows well and can keep long term vs. a player who isn't likely to have a long career here (5 years tops). Not to mention integral players on a team with a taste of the Stanley Cup experience. If you could have Edler for many years more than Kane, is that a good starting point? But there is no way to negotiate with Edler unless he is with the organization, otherwise it is tampering. The whole deal is hypothetical, and I am not hellbent on trading Kane. As a whole you would have to add more for the trade be feasible, you are entirely correct in this respect. It's not a deal I would make, it's players I would covet. Perhaps I should have stated this to begin with, to avoid a series of disagreements/misunderstandings...Apologies for the disrespect.

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08-26-2012, 02:44 AM
  #788
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
The post I quoted originally talked about getting Edler or Hamhuis for Kane. I'm a fan of Edler, and I wanted to talk about getting players the organization knows well and can keep long term vs. a player who isn't likely to have a long career here (5 years tops). Not to mention integral players on a team with a taste of the Stanley Cup experience. If you could have Edler for many years more than Kane, is that a good starting point? But there is no way to negotiate with Edler unless he is with the organization, otherwise it is tampering. The whole deal is hypothetical, and I am not hellbent on trading Kane. As a whole you would have to add more for the trade be feasible, you are entirely correct in this respect. It's not a deal I would make, it's players I would covet. Perhaps I should have stated this to begin with, to avoid a series of disagreements/misunderstandings...Apologies for the disrespect.
Problem is you have no idea if Edler would stay for longer than Kane, at all. As you said, even talking about it to the player is tampering. That's the point to all this Kane nonsense... Its all built off of speculation. Sorry, moving away from a response to you but more general people: it's just a bunch of bull:
Duchene would stay...
Edler would stay...
Kane would leave...
"And I know this cos I got a feeling about" "I don't like their personalities" etc.
Just like we knew:
Bogo's going to leave...
Enstrom is going to leave...
Glass is going to stay...
Mason is going to stay...

When will everyone realize: it's a job. These people will always say the same things and that's the norm. No-one will ever know for certain about anything unless the player actually wants us to know.

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08-26-2012, 03:12 AM
  #789
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Problem is you have no idea if Edler would stay for longer than Kane, at all. As you said, even talking about it to the player is tampering. That's the point to all this Kane nonsense... Its all built off of speculation. Sorry, moving away from a response to you but more general people: it's just a bunch of bull:
Duchene would stay...
Edler would stay...
Kane would leave...
"And I know this cos I got a feeling about" "I don't like their personalities" etc.
Just like we knew:
Bogo's going to leave...
Enstrom is going to leave...
Glass is going to stay...
Mason is going to stay...

When will everyone realize: it's a job. These people will always say the same things and that's the norm. No-one will ever know for certain about anything unless the player actually wants us to know.
I love Duchene!

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08-26-2012, 03:58 AM
  #790
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
The post I quoted originally talked about getting Edler or Hamhuis for Kane. I'm a fan of Edler, and I wanted to talk about getting players the organization knows well and can keep long term vs. a player who isn't likely to have a long career here (5 years tops). Not to mention integral players on a team with a taste of the Stanley Cup experience. If you could have Edler for many years more than Kane, is that a good starting point? But there is no way to negotiate with Edler unless he is with the organization, otherwise it is tampering. The whole deal is hypothetical, and I am not hellbent on trading Kane. As a whole you would have to add more for the trade be feasible, you are entirely correct in this respect. It's not a deal I would make, it's players I would covet. Perhaps I should have stated this to begin with, to avoid a series of disagreements/misunderstandings...Apologies for the disrespect.
I would like you to show us ONE CONCRETE piece of evidence -- not speculation, conjecture, hearsay, etc. that backs your claim of Kane being here for 5 years tops. Until then your whole argument is 100% moot. Especially considering you have no idea how long Edler would stay here if we did indeed make a trade like that.

All of this is getting kind of tiring. It's cool to discuss trades and worths of players but when people start throwing around wild claims as fact then it just gets silly IMHO.

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08-26-2012, 01:26 PM
  #791
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I would like you to show us ONE CONCRETE piece of evidence -- not speculation, conjecture, hearsay, etc. that backs your claim of Kane being here for 5 years tops. Until then your whole argument is 100% moot. Especially considering you have no idea how long Edler would stay here if we did indeed make a trade like that.

All of this is getting kind of tiring. It's cool to discuss trades and worths of players but when people start throwing around wild claims as fact then it just gets silly IMHO.
Just about everything said on these forums are peoples honest opinions,and it frustrates me the way they get jumped on for making statements that a tight knit group don't necessarily agree with.if you are so tired of certain types of thoughts and ideas being expressed you should reconsider the amount of time you spend on these open public forums.

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08-26-2012, 01:36 PM
  #792
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I know this is from Eklund, but anyway...what do you think? Maybe Toews for Kane straight up? Haha.

Evander Kane is a totally different situation. In many ways the Kane story reminds me of the Jordan Staal story from earlier this summer. While Kane is not "asking to be traded" as some have reported, it appears the door is at least a bit open to such an outcome...and the Hawks could be putting together the kind of package that nudges the door even further...

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08-26-2012, 02:08 PM
  #793
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Originally Posted by Zhamnov10 View Post
Just about everything said on these forums are peoples honest opinions,and it frustrates me the way they get jumped on for making statements that a tight knit group don't necessarily agree with.if you are so tired of certain types of thoughts and ideas being expressed you should reconsider the amount of time you spend on these open public forums.
Pardon?

People are more than allowed to express their opinions on a subject -- any subject regarding the Jets here and to have a differing opinion of the majority group. However, this is a place where many of our users come to get reliable, accurate information on the Jets, so forgive me for calling someone on the carpet when they start treating hearsay as fact. There is a big difference between stating that he feels, or in his opinion that Kane will only be here a maximum 5 years, and throwing it up as some sort of foregone conclusion or fact, especially when we have been fighting false rumors on this very subject for months.

I asked the poster to which I replied to for concrete proof that what he was saying was true, and as a fellow poster that is not at all beyond fair if I am trying to determine the validity of his argument.

What you consider this 'tight knit' group is in actuality the faction of posters here who value the integrity of the information that is shared on this forum.

PS if I stopped spending so much time here I would have to find another hobby and that sounds like a lot of work

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08-26-2012, 02:10 PM
  #794
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Originally Posted by Zhamnov10 View Post
Just about everything said on these forums are peoples honest opinions,and it frustrates me the way they get jumped on for making statements that a tight knit group don't necessarily agree with.if you are so tired of certain types of thoughts and ideas being expressed you should reconsider the amount of time you spend on these open public forums.
There is a difference between opinions that occur from watching the game, production and development to predict skill, value, etc and ridiculous speculation of players motives, likes, dislikes and where they want to play.
It becomes even more ridiculous when people say X>Y because X will stay here for __ years and Y will stay here for __ years.

To give two recent examples of both good and bad:
Edler over Kane because he will re-sign here and Kane wants to leave.
Duchene over Kane because Duchene is a better player whose value has been lowered on an off year.

Both are speculations; both can be wrong or right; one is founded on facts and opinions; one is founded on speculation and rumours. See the difference?

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08-26-2012, 05:09 PM
  #795
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Wpg- Getzlaf (provided we can sign him)
Perry
Smith-Pelly



Ana- Kane
Burmistrov
Hainsey

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08-26-2012, 05:13 PM
  #796
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Wpg- Getzlaf (provided we can sign him)
Perry
Smith-Pelly



Ana- Kane
Burmistrov
Hainsey
I don't much like the idea of trading away Burmistrov. I really think he could be our #1C going forward and really help mold this team into the two way play that we all envision.

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08-26-2012, 06:54 PM
  #797
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Originally Posted by Dirty30 View Post
Wpg- Getzlaf (provided we can sign him)
Perry
Smith-Pelly



Ana- Kane
Burmistrov
Hainsey
There is no way Anaheim trades both Getzlaf and Cory Perry.

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08-26-2012, 07:39 PM
  #798
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Changing topics; Scheifele with the high quality cross country zinger...

https://twitter.com/ALowsyPlayer17/s...820224/photo/1


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08-26-2012, 07:57 PM
  #799
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There is no way Anaheim trades both Getzlaf and Cory Perry.
Both have indicated they will not be re-signing with the ducks and want to sign on with the same team. If TNE wants to pay big $$$, I'm sure they would sign.

Would it make more sense to offer Little rather than Burmi? I realize this is unlikely, but I know for a fact both want out of Anaheim.

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08-26-2012, 08:24 PM
  #800
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Wpg- Getzlaf (provided we can sign him)
Perry
Smith-Pelly



Ana- Kane
Burmistrov
Hainsey
Even if you take out Smith-Pelly Anahiem doesn't go for it. In no world would Anahiem trade away a #1 center and a former Hart winner for so cheap. Kane and Burmistrov have value, but no where close to Getzlaf and Perry.

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