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All Rick Nash talk- The Free Agency Frenzy Edition

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Old
06-30-2012, 11:32 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Express View Post
Even if I eliminate the bold players on your list (and I flat out will never entertain the idea that Rick Nash is better than Zetterberg, Richards, Carter, or Neal), where does Rick Nash rank to you?

45th or 46th?

Point remains: Why does the 45th best player (by your own admission) in the NHL have a top 5 cap hit in the NHL?
Who cares what one players cap hit is if it wins you the Stanley Cup?

Does LA's Cup not count because they were overpaying Dustin Penner? Did Boston's Cup not count because they gave up too much for Kaberle?

A team looking to add Nash is doing it because they think he'll be a piece that can help get them a cup. People can obsess over whether player's contracts fit their production exactly, but you don't win cups for having the best bargains or contracts in the league - usually, it's a mix of young talent that's cheaper plus veterans plus bigger contracts. I've yet to see an NHL team where every single player's contract matches their production exactly throughout the duration - that is impossible, and fans expecting that are clueless.

So yes, Nash has a big cap hit, that doesn't mean the goals he scores or the wins he will bring his new team won't count

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06-30-2012, 11:34 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
They could get a player just as good as Staal or one younger, with more upside, who isn't close to UFA status.

You may be surprised to hear this but there are other teams aside from the Rangers that have assets to offer
Ok. Name a better proven D man 25 or under, for less of a cap hit, longer term, that would be available for a 60 pt player. Have fun with that one

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06-30-2012, 11:37 PM
  #128
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Ok. Name a better proven D man 25 or under, for less of a cap hit, longer term, that would be available for a 60 pt player. Have fun with that one
that is way too easy

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06-30-2012, 11:38 PM
  #129
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that is way too easy
Which is why I see 6 names here... oh wait, no i dont

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06-30-2012, 11:38 PM
  #130
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Ok. Name a better proven D man 25 or under, for less of a cap hit, longer term, that would be available for a 60 pt player. Have fun with that one
Ryan McDonough, for one.

Oliver Ekman-Larson. Plenty of good young defensman out there who are still in RFA status. and again, if you read my post, it was about the ability to sign that person you trade for.

Bobby Ryan, if he gets traded to NYR, no reason to think he wouldn't re-sign there long term. Staal, the worry is he'll go to Carolina if he gets to UFA status where his 3 brothers are

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06-30-2012, 11:41 PM
  #131
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Ryan McDonough, for one. I said available for a 60 pt player. He is untouchable.

Oliver Ekman-Larson. Plenty of good young defensman out there who are still in RFA status. I also said better than Staal
Keep trying

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06-30-2012, 11:42 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Ryan McDonough, for one.

Oliver Ekman-Larson.
Yeah, you're net getting either of those for 8 mil 60 pt. player. Like wishing for lotto numbers

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06-30-2012, 11:45 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Ryan McDonough, for one.

Oliver Ekman-Larson. Plenty of good young defensman out there who are still in RFA status. and again, if you read my post, it was about the ability to sign that person you trade for.

Bobby Ryan, if he gets traded to NYR, no reason to think he wouldn't re-sign there long term. Staal, the worry is he'll go to Carolina if he gets to UFA status where his 3 brothers are
That is acually the 1st valid point you've come up with. BUT 3 years under contract is still 3 years, for less of a hit than Ryan, on a budget team ANA. There is no reason to think Ryan wouldnt resign with NYR, but it is not a certainty, nor is Staal signing in CAR.

Any level headed Ducks fans chime in here with Staal/Ansimov/1st? How close is it?

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06-30-2012, 11:46 PM
  #134
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Keep trying
um, there are a ton of good young defensman out there.

Karl Alzner. John Carlson. Victor Hedmam. Erik Gudbrason. Tyler Myers. Alex Peitrangelo. Kevin Shattenkirk. PK Subban. Dimitri Kulitkov. Alex Edler.

Marc Staal is not the best young defenseman in the league, nor would he be the best Anaheim could do in a Bobby Ryan deal. This is the dumbest argument ever - Staal is great, a real solid player. I'm not knocking him. But guys like Bobby Ryan or Rick Nash don't become available often, which is why teams demand so much for them.

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06-30-2012, 11:47 PM
  #135
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Yeah, you're net getting either of those for 8 mil 60 pt. player. Like wishing for lotto numbers
Baseball futures is a separate board if you want to ignorantly discuss players based on stat sheets.

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06-30-2012, 11:50 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by danmcn12 View Post
Baseball futures is a separate board if you want to ignorantly discuss players based on stat sheets.
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/6/27/rick-nash-facts

Quote:
It's even more difficult to justify spending $47.4M over the next six years paying off his contract because he isn't worth the cost if he can only produce at an "elite" level when he is playing soft minutes, to say nothing of the player he will be later in the contract.

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06-30-2012, 11:55 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Express View Post
Perry
Ryan
Getzlaf
Seguin
Chara
Bergeron
Pominville
Vanek
Miller
Iginla
Skinner
Ward
Kipprusoff
E Staal
J Staal
Hossa
Sharp
Kane
Toews
Kieth
Sheabrook
Stastny
Duchene
Landeskog
Eriksson
Benn
Zetterberg
Datsyuk
Hall
Nugent-Hopkins
Eberle
Kopitar
Richards
Brown
Carter
Doughty
Quick
Heatley
Koivu
Webber
Sutter
Rinne
Kovalchuk
Parise
Tavares
Moulson
Gaborik
Richards
Lundqvist
Karlsson
Spezza
Michalek
Giroux
Yandle
Crosby
Malkin
Letang
Neal
Thornton
Marleau
Couture
Pietrangelo
Halak
Stamkos
St. Louis
Hedman
Kessel
Phanuef
Sedin
Sedin
Kessler
Luongo
Edler
Ovechkin
Backstrom
Green
Kane
Byfuglien
Pavelec

I have no idea how many that is and I know there are some younger names, but those are guys I rate over Rick Nash all things considered
You're insulting yourself.

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Old
06-30-2012, 11:59 PM
  #138
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Please - so if Nash became a UFA last year, I'm sure the Rangers or whoever would've signed him would have gotten him for a $5 million cap hit.

It takes money and term to lock players like him up. Look at that awful deal it took to get a 31 year old Brad Richards signed.

If a star player comes close to UFA status or gets to UFA status they get huge money and term - the market dictates that, not Howson or any other GM.
7.8 million for the type of return Howson wants is insane. There is a salary cap and it is on the way down after the CBA passes. Any team getting Nash will be putting themselves in cap hell to go along with the other contracts. Howson wants someone to build his team for him by being dumb enough to trade 3-4 top, young, cheap assets to get him. That doesn't happen, EVER.

That awfully long contract Richards has a much less cap hit to what Nash makes. You use that cap room to get more players. Trading those types of pieces will KILL the Rangers or almost any teams future going forward. Imagine a team losses it's top 2-3 young NHL players plus picks and possibly another high level prospect. It's murder to a franchise.

If Howson did his job all along and got actual good players on his team, then there would not be this issue. Nash would be staying in Columbus and have an actual team around him. Right now, up front, they have Nash, Johansen, and Brassard. After that, there is not much there. There isn't much in the pipeline as well. Other teams have done better with later picks than what Howson has done with higher picks.

Jeff Carter trade killed them. Couturier would have been great for them. Not drafting any impactful forwards besides Voracek, Brassard, or Johansen isn't going to do anything for a team. No impact outside of the first round up front. That's terrible scouting and terrible drafting. Howson did this to himself and one of the GM's in the league is not going to be the person to get him out of his bad situation.

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07-01-2012, 12:06 AM
  #139
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Baseball futures is a separate board if you want to ignorantly discuss players based on stat sheets.
I told him that like 4 month ago when the trade rumor just appeared. He keeps posting absolutely same thing in every edition of the Nash's threads. That's beyond annoying when you have to read about Nash's stats and cap hit on every page. Some rags fans are like parrots - they just keep saying absolutely obvious to everyone facts. That's like posting "sky is blue" 20 times a day.

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07-01-2012, 12:08 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by mrjimmyg89 View Post
7.8 million for the type of return Howson wants is insane. There is a salary cap and it is on the way down after the CBA passes. Any team getting Nash will be putting themselves in cap hell to go along with the other contracts. Howson wants someone to build his team for him by being dumb enough to trade 3-4 top, young, cheap assets to get him. That doesn't happen, EVER.

That awfully long contract Richards has a much less cap hit to what Nash makes. You use that cap room to get more players. Trading those types of pieces will KILL the Rangers or almost any teams future going forward. Imagine a team losses it's top 2-3 young NHL players plus picks and possibly another high level prospect. It's murder to a franchise.

If Howson did his job all along and got actual good players on his team, then there would not be this issue. Nash would be staying in Columbus and have an actual team around him. Right now, up front, they have Nash, Johansen, and Brassard. After that, there is not much there. There isn't much in the pipeline as well. Other teams have done better with later picks than what Howson has done with higher picks.

Jeff Carter trade killed them. Couturier would have been great for them. Not drafting any impactful forwards besides Voracek, Brassard, or Johansen isn't going to do anything for a team. No impact outside of the first round up front. That's terrible scouting and terrible drafting. Howson did this to himself and one of the GM's in the league is not going to be the person to get him out of his bad situation.
Wow you brilliantly pointed out that the Jackets aren't a very good team. Where did you come up with that?

I don't see anyone arguing here the Jackets are a good team or that Howson is GM of the year. He's trying to trade an elite, franchise, game-changing player and trying to get the best return possible.

Getting Nash wouldn't put a team in "cap hell" - the Captials aren't in "cap hell" with Ovechkins $9+ million hit, and the Penguins aren't in "cap hell" with huge hits for Crosby and Malkin of $8.7 each and are even trying to add another huge hit with Parise.

Sure, having a huge hit on your cap makes it more challenging but it's certainly manageable.

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Old
07-01-2012, 12:40 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Wow you brilliantly pointed out that the Jackets aren't a very good team. Where did you come up with that?

I don't see anyone arguing here the Jackets are a good team or that Howson is GM of the year. He's trying to trade an elite, franchise, game-changing player and trying to get the best return possible.

Getting Nash wouldn't put a team in "cap hell" - the Captials aren't in "cap hell" with Ovechkins $9+ million hit, and the Penguins aren't in "cap hell" with huge hits for Crosby and Malkin of $8.7 each and are even trying to add another huge hit with Parise.

Sure, having a huge hit on your cap makes it more challenging but it's certainly manageable.
We already have 3 in big contracts in Lundqvist, Richards and Gaborik? It would be different if Gaborik's deal ended next year, but we need to resign the following:

Stepan
Hagelin
McDonagh

They're all currently on ELCs and all will want big raises. We have no "dead weight" coming off. Where will the space for them come from?

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07-01-2012, 12:50 AM
  #142
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Again, in the past, Nash's contract looked like a severe overpayment. But with the way contracts have been handed out lately...

In a world where Wideman gets 5 million and Gaustad gets 3.5, Nash at 7.8 isn't too bad. It's slightly more than what he's worth, but nothing earth-shatteringly bad.

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07-01-2012, 01:00 AM
  #143
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Nash is NOT worth more than a 2nd round pick with his contract.

1- Howson wants a steep package to justify trading their "franchise" player
2- Internet rumors start with ridiculous packages going the other way
3- Fans start proposing ridiculous packages actually expecting that is the true cost

What is missing in this list is an actually GM willing to pay. I doubt there is. This is Simon Gagne all over again.

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07-01-2012, 01:03 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Nash is NOT worth more than a 2nd round pick with his contract.

1- Howson wants a steep package to justify trading their "franchise" player
2- Internet rumors start with ridiculous packages going the other way
3- Fans start proposing ridiculous packages actually expecting that is the true cost

What is missing in this list is an actually GM willing to pay. I doubt there is. This is Simon Gagne all over again.
Keep telling yourself that. I seem to recall Glen Sather offering up much more than a 2nd round pick.

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07-01-2012, 01:14 AM
  #145
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Nash is worth about 7, 7.5. He's not overpaid by a lot. Especially with the way the cap is going up.

Howson however is asking for packages that exceed Nash's value.

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07-01-2012, 01:18 AM
  #146
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Nash is worth about 7, 7.5. He's not overpaid by a lot. Especially with the way the cap is going up.

Howson however is asking for packages that exceed Nash's value.
I agree, but Nash is and has been the face of the Blue Jackets since the beginning. I'd ask for quite a bit to if I was him.

That's not to say he isn't being ridiculous though.

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07-01-2012, 01:55 AM
  #147
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That is acually the 1st valid point you've come up with. BUT 3 years under contract is still 3 years, for less of a hit than Ryan, on a budget team ANA. There is no reason to think Ryan wouldnt resign with NYR, but it is not a certainty, nor is Staal signing in CAR.

Any level headed Ducks fans chime in here with Staal/Ansimov/1st? How close is it?
I'd give it serious thought. My response would depend on other offers though, because obviously if that isn't the best deal I'm not going to ignore them and take it, and if I feel I can get a bit more by waiting, well it can pay to be patient. It definitely factors in some of Anaheim's needs, which is more than you can say about a lot of offers.

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07-01-2012, 03:00 AM
  #148
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Ok. Name a better proven D man 25 or under, for less of a cap hit, longer term, that would be available for a 60 pt player. Have fun with that one

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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Ryan McDonough, for one.

Oliver Ekman-Larson. Plenty of good young defensman out there who are still in RFA status. and again, if you read my post, it was about the ability to sign that person you trade for.

Bobby Ryan, if he gets traded to NYR, no reason to think he wouldn't re-sign there long term. Staal, the worry is he'll go to Carolina if he gets to UFA status where his 3 brothers are
Neither of these defensemen appear to be available.

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07-01-2012, 03:07 AM
  #149
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Nash is NOT worth more than a 2nd round pick with his contract.

1- Howson wants a steep package to justify trading their "franchise" player
2- Internet rumors start with ridiculous packages going the other way
3- Fans start proposing ridiculous packages actually expecting that is the true cost

What is missing in this list is an actually GM willing to pay. I doubt there is. This is Simon Gagne all over again.

Your 2nd round pick comment is pretty hyperbolic, but I'm totally with you on the bolded. Nash is worth whatever another GM will pay for him (more specifically, what a GM from a team that he will agree to go to will pay for him). Until someone agrees to anything near Howson's asking price, that is as much a fantasy as any of the lowball offers flooding through this thread. Rick Nash has been on the market since February, if he was worth what Columbus is asking, he would have been traded by now.

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07-01-2012, 03:38 AM
  #150
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Elite players under contract during the offseason have not gotten moved for a lot in the past. Look at the Heatley deal. Michalek was the only big piece that moved. An overpayed and regressing Cheechoo and a 2nd.

You do not get as much as you think for a elite player like that with that large of a cap it. It's unrealistic. I don't know if I would even do Nash straight up for Kreider or McDonagh based on cap implications and what would it cost to replace McDonagh on the roster, even if it's a 2nd pairing defender.

As a Ranger fan, I don't think Nash is the answer in New York, at least not right now. Possibly if Gaborik was coming out of his contract and they were looking to replace him, Nash would make some sense, but not with the team and the amount of money they are going to have to spend in the next couple seasons on Stepan, Del Zotto, McDonagh, Kredier, and Hagelin. Trading those players for Nash would set the team back on what they want to do: Add depth to an already good team.

A good suitor for Nash is a team looking to add to a deeper team that needs a big punch up front. St. Louis, Minnesota (if no Parise), and Nashville come to mind. Detroit to a lesser extent. Ottawa looks viable as well. The Rangers just aren't the fit the Jackets want unless they lower their demands severely.

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