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Brandon Prust to Montreal [4 years, $10M]

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Old
07-02-2012, 10:25 AM
  #376
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No one will be questioning this signing when we're still playing hockey in mid April.

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07-02-2012, 10:25 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Torts doesn't even love his own son. To love Prust is high, HIGH praise.
Torts also put Prust on the ice an average of 11:56 per game in the regular season, 12:46 per game in the playoffs, in both cases 11th among Rangers forwards.

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07-02-2012, 10:28 AM
  #378
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Find a single cup winning team post lockout that had a 70+ million cap

I'll be waiting.
For bottom liners the most significant number is around ~500,000 i.e. that years league minimum salary.

But if you insist on that comparison, find a 4th line winger that took up 3.56% of the cap on a recent cup team.

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07-02-2012, 10:29 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
For bottom liners the most significant number is around ~500,000 i.e. that years league minimum salary.

But if you insist on that comparison, find a 4th line winger that took up 3.56% of the cap on a recent cup team.

Find a cup winning team who had a 4th line who was pushed around and intimidated? I think that's more important than spending a couple extra million.

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07-02-2012, 10:30 AM
  #380
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No one will be questioning this signing when we're still playing hockey in mid April.
If they make the playoffs its because of their good players. i.e. Subban, Markov, Price, Plekanec, Pacioretty, Cole etc.

Not because of a deluxe 4th line winger.

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07-02-2012, 10:34 AM
  #381
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Anyone remember the Moen-Pahlsson-Niedermayer line the Ducks had on their cup run.

That line was *****in in the playoffs. Pretty much completely shut down Ottawa.

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07-02-2012, 10:36 AM
  #382
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Find a cup winning team who had a 4th line who was pushed around and intimidated? I think that's more important than spending a couple extra million.
The most salient feature of 4th lines on cup winning teams is that they can play hockey reasonably well for about 1 million dollars each.

Nolan-Fraser-Richardson won the last cup. They are cheap (average ~.84 million) and they can all play hockey. That's what you need on a winning fourth line.

They benched Clifford and Westgarth. You know why? Because in the modern NHL when the going gets tough the tough guy gets useless.

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07-02-2012, 10:43 AM
  #383
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The most salient feature of 4th lines on cup winning teams is that they can play hockey reasonably well for about 1 million dollars each.

Nolan-Fraser-Richardson won the last cup. They are cheap (average ~.84 million) and they can all play hockey. That's what you need on a winning fourth line.

They benched Clifford and Westgarth. You know why? Because in the modern NHL when the going gets tough the tough guy gets useless.

Prust, Nokelainen and White average out to 1.2 million a year. Pretty close to 1 million each. And they can all play and have some serious jam on the wings.
Pretty comparable for my money and I would be very content with that going into the season.

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07-02-2012, 10:44 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
For bottom liners the most significant number is around ~500,000 i.e. that years league minimum salary.

But if you insist on that comparison, find a 4th line winger that took up 3.56% of the cap on a recent cup team.
what does the % of cap used, have to do with the contributions of a 4th line winger? Why do you assume that when a certain player exceeds what you think is an acceptable % for a cap hit, that he can no longer be useful?

What % of the cap did Dustin Penner chew up in Los Angeles last year? I'm sure it was disproportionate to his production given he only scored 7 goals all year...

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07-02-2012, 10:48 AM
  #385
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Torts also put Prust on the ice an average of 11:56 per game in the regular season, 12:46 per game in the playoffs, in both cases 11th among Rangers forwards.
Yeah, I wouldn't play him more than 13 minutes a game. He's still a trust worthy player.

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Prust, Nokelainen and White average out to 1.2 million a year. Pretty close to 1 million each. And they can all play and have some serious jam on the wings.
Pretty comparable for my money and I would be very content with that going into the season.
Hopefully surrounded by White, Moen, and Prust Noks will play bigger.

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07-02-2012, 10:54 AM
  #386
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Prust, Nokelainen and White average out to 1.2 million a year. Pretty close to 1 million each. And they can all play and have some serious jam on the wings.
Pretty comparable for my money and I would be very content with that going into the season.
Nokialainan in the regular lineup shouldn't happen. You take two near league minimum salaries to make one huge payment look better. If MTL does its job then either there is a new 4C or one of the wingers who are better players than Nokia shifts to the middle. Which pushes average salary towards 1.4-1.7 million

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what does the % of cap used, have to do with the contributions of a 4th line winger? Why do you assume that when a certain player exceeds what you think is an acceptable % for a cap hit, that he can no longer be useful?

What % of the cap did Dustin Penner chew up in Los Angeles last year? I'm sure it was disproportionate to his production given he only scored 7 goals all year...
No he just played good 2nd line LW for them during their cup run. They ended up getting value from him which is part of why they won the cup as an 8th seed. They had money invested in good players that ended up having bad years in the regular season.

The thing with good players though is they go back to being significant contributors. Much like Penner, Richards and Carter did this year. To win they didn't need them to go above and beyond their talent, just play as good as they normally do.

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07-02-2012, 10:56 AM
  #387
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No one will be questioning this signing when we're still playing hockey in mid April.
What happens in April, cause all 30 teams will be playing hockey in April.

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Prust is a fine depth player. He's not the kind of player you outbid the rest of the league for on the first day of free agency. He's the type you find for a bargain at the end of free agency, claim off waivers, or make a minor trade for. It looks to me like Prust has turned his exposure in 24/7 and the Rangers' long playoff run into an overpayment, and the Habs are the suckers.
I think the Habs clearly had to overpay to land a player like this. The Habs failure to draft/develop/acquire solid hard working 4th liners that bring grit/toughness, has forced them to overpay via the UFA market as the team had a terrible 4th line last year.

Just like when Gainey had to overpay to land a top 6 center when the supposed deal for Vinny fell through he went and overpaid for Gomez because the club hasn't been able to draft/develop/acquire skilled centers outside of Pleks. (granted DD stepped in but at the time there were major doubts he could produce like he did this season)

The Habs certainly went into this off-season with no real 4th line other then White, so they had to overpay to fix the problem. While Prust maybe would have signed somewhere else for half what we paid, there's no way on earth we would get him off waivers and waiting for his price to drop would be very risky considering they could be left with having Blunden instead fill that role or a player similar.

I like that management saw a glarring need and did what they had to do to address as best they can. I would assume it takes a couple years to fix the mess that we are in, but improving the 4th line is a start at least, even if they had to overpay to do so. Hab fans should be used to the idea of having to overpay to land assets that they are in need of, as it's not like other teams/gm's/players/agents can't see the same problems our management/media/fans see. When you are dealing from a position of weakness, you are limited, it's either overpay to fix or try your luck elsewhere. Perhaps something would have panned out if they just waited and say went with Blunden or Dumont as a backup plan but that would likely be a tough thing for a new GM/management team in place as I'm sure they are eager to put their stamp on things.

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07-02-2012, 10:58 AM
  #388
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No he just played good 2nd line LW for them during their cup run. They ended up getting value from him which is part of why they won the cup as an 8th seed. They had money invested in good players that ended up having bad years in the regular season.

The thing with good players though is they go back to being significant contributors. Much like Penner, Richards and Carter did this year. To win they didn't need them to go above and beyond their talent, just play as good as they normally do.
Agreed...so in other words. Whether or not a player is overpaid, it doesn't necessarily have to affect the product on the ice, right?

Dustin Penner scored 3 goals during the Kings Cup run, yes, some very important goals...but I wouldn't say he played a good 2nd line LW for them. According to your logic, he's an overpaid player who underachieved all year but still managed to contribute positively during the playoffs.

You and others need to detach from the idea that 'overpaying' a player, automatically means you can't be successful.

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07-02-2012, 10:59 AM
  #389
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No one will be questioning this signing when we're still playing hockey in early Junel.
Fixed

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07-02-2012, 11:04 AM
  #390
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I think the Habs clearly had to overpay to land a player like this. The Habs failure to draft/develop/acquire solid hard working 4th liners that bring grit/toughness, has forced them to overpay via the UFA market as the team had a terrible 4th line last year.

Just like when Gainey had to overpay to land a top 6 center when the supposed deal for Vinny fell through he went and overpaid for Gomez because the club hasn't been able to draft/develop/acquire skilled centers outside of Pleks. (granted DD stepped in but at the time there were major doubts he could produce like he did this season)

The Habs certainly went into this off-season with no real 4th line other then White, so they had to overpay to fix the problem. While Prust maybe would have signed somewhere else for half what we paid, there's no way on earth we would get him off waivers and waiting for his price to drop would be very risky considering they could be left with having Blunden instead fill that role or a player similar.

I like that management saw a glarring need and did what they had to do to address as best they can. I would assume it takes a couple years to fix the mess that we are in, but improving the 4th line is a start at least, even if they had to overpay to do so. Hab fans should be used to the idea of having to overpay to land assets that they are in need of, as it's not like other teams/gm's/players/agents can't see the same problems our management/media/fans see. When you are dealing from a position of weakness, you are limited, it's either overpay to fix or try your luck elsewhere. Perhaps something would have panned out if they just waited and say went with Blunden or Dumont as a backup plan but that would likely be a tough thing for a new GM/management team in place as I'm sure they are eager to put their stamp on things.
I think that's a really good explanation of why they decided make the move. I just think it's not the right way to build a winner. The Gomez analogy is actually pretty good (though thankfully on a smaller scale) - a perceived need turning into a desperation move.

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07-02-2012, 11:06 AM
  #391
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Agreed...so in other words. Whether or not a player is overpaid, it doesn't necessarily have to affect the product on the ice, right?

Dustin Penner scored 3 goals during the Kings Cup run, yes, some very important goals...but I wouldn't say he played a good 2nd line LW for them. According to your logic, he's an overpaid player who underachieved all year but still managed to contribute positively during the playoffs.

You and others need to detach from the idea that 'overpaying' a player, automatically means you can't be successful.
Well you shouldn't a player for being overpaid certainly. This isn't me saying I hate Prust or anything.

Its questioning the decision making that went into signing him to this kind of contract. I don't think this is the kind of thing an organization that builds a winning team does. Good organizations don't pay real player money for low impact depth.

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07-02-2012, 11:09 AM
  #392
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I think that's a really good explanation of why they decided make the move. I just think it's not the right way to build a winner. The Gomez analogy is actually pretty good (though thankfully on a smaller scale) - a perceived need turning into a desperation move.
It may not be the right way to build a winner, it blew up in Gainey's face when he tried it but I think and hope that if you do the same but instead of overpaying for key positions, you fill them via the draft and overpay the role players. This way it doesn't eat up as much in terms of cap space since we could have had to be paying Cammy 7M this up coming season. At least with the smaller contracts, even overpaid ones, it's not like the team will be saddled as they would have been/are with the big cap hits of Gomez/Kabs/Markov/Cammy/Gio since we would be looking a total of around 30 M between those 5 alone.

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07-02-2012, 11:10 AM
  #393
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Fixed
Junel? I didn't know they added a 13th month to the calendar?

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07-02-2012, 11:12 AM
  #394
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Well you shouldn't a player for being overpaid certainly. This isn't me saying I hate Prust or anything.

Its questioning the decision making that went into signing him to this kind of contract. I don't think this is the kind of thing an organization that builds a winning team does. Good organizations don't pay real player money for low impact depth.
Hmmm...I dont' think it's a secret the Habs lacked a player like Prust, a player with character and grit, and who brings intangibles that can't be measured in stats and/or dollar figures.

Did they have to overpay, yes, given they were lacking that element. Just like if they sign Zack Parise, they'll have to overpay to add the element of scoring.

When you NEED an element and you don't have it within your organization, you have to overpay to get it. But what I don't get is that there is MORE than enough money to go around for this type of signing, so why does it bother you so much?

who cares about how much money he makes, if he makes this team a better team...(although some may argue he doesn't...I think he does)

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07-02-2012, 11:13 AM
  #395
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What happens in April, cause all 30 teams will be playing hockey in April.



I think the Habs clearly had to overpay to land a player like this. The Habs failure to draft/develop/acquire solid hard working 4th liners that bring grit/toughness, has forced them to overpay via the UFA market as the team had a terrible 4th line last year.

Just like when Gainey had to overpay to land a top 6 center when the supposed deal for Vinny fell through he went and overpaid for Gomez because the club hasn't been able to draft/develop/acquire skilled centers outside of Pleks. (granted DD stepped in but at the time there were major doubts he could produce like he did this season)

The Habs certainly went into this off-season with no real 4th line other then White, so they had to overpay to fix the problem. While Prust maybe would have signed somewhere else for half what we paid, there's no way on earth we would get him off waivers and waiting for his price to drop would be very risky considering they could be left with having Blunden instead fill that role or a player similar.

I like that management saw a glarring need and did what they had to do to address as best they can. I would assume it takes a couple years to fix the mess that we are in, but improving the 4th line is a start at least, even if they had to overpay to do so. Hab fans should be used to the idea of having to overpay to land assets that they are in need of, as it's not like other teams/gm's/players/agents can't see the same problems our management/media/fans see. When you are dealing from a position of weakness, you are limited, it's either overpay to fix or try your luck elsewhere. Perhaps something would have panned out if they just waited and say went with Blunden or Dumont as a backup plan but that would likely be a tough thing for a new GM/management team in place as I'm sure they are eager to put their stamp on things.
Going into the off-season White was the only good 4th liner they had true. But they resigned Moen who should be about 10th on a good teams forward depth and acquired Armstrong. That should be enough for 4 line wings. The Habs should be looking at getting players higher in the depth chart to push these guys down some spots not add more.

Even if its not. No one should ever get the tiniest bit desperate about the 4th line this early in the off-season because its such a low impact role. The position they should be getting desperate over is 2nd line LW

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07-02-2012, 11:17 AM
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Hmmm...I dont' think it's a secret the Habs lacked a player like Prust, a player with character and grit, and who brings intangibles that can't be measured in stats and/or dollar figures.

Did they have to overpay, yes, given they were lacking that element. Just like if they sign Zack Parise, they'll have to overpay to add the element of scoring.

When you NEED an element and you don't have it within your organization, you have to overpay to get it. But what I don't get is that there is MORE than enough money to go around for this type of signing, so why does it bother you so much?

who cares about how much money he makes, if he makes this team a better team...(although some may argue he doesn't...I think he does)
It is not arguable. Brandon Prust would make any team in the NHL a better team. He is a superb PKer, fights, hits, plays hard and creates energy. Defensively he is well above average and on a good year he would put up 25~30 points. This is the type of player Montreal has been missing for too long. Unfortunately, I fear for his life against the Bruins as the Habs still don't match up well. They are better after adding Prust and re-signing Moen, but not there yet.

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07-02-2012, 11:18 AM
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The thing with Plekanec on the PK is that he's actually elite there. I'd put good money on him being top 5 in the NHL for centermen. This is something that stands out in terms of goals against on the PK in a big way. And the penalty kill is very high leverage minutes. They mean more than even strength ones. Its one thing to not use a star on the PK because they are barely better than your plugs at it. Its another when playing him there gives you a significant advantage.

If anything, they should be looking at getting better 5 on 5 so he doesn't play so many minutes there.

But Prust isn't a center. He has no impact on whether Plekanec plays PK minutes or not. He's in contention with Moen, Gionta, Bourque and White there. And there isn't much reason to need to go away from Moen and Gionta as the top two wings. This is Moen's bread and butter and Gionta is both an excellent PK winger and also doesn't get 1st unit power play time so its reasonable in terms of minutes to use him 2nd unit on both special teams. If they actually got someone like McClement or Halpern (still UFA), the might be able to lighten Plekanec's load a bit. But Prust doesn't do that.

They might have been "easy to play against" in the recent era, but there were long periods were they weren't easy to win against. That should be the goal IMO. They've added in players that can help physically but I'm skeptical of how much they've added in ability to win hockey games. The second priority is far more important. Soft Montreal has largely matched up well against the supposed pinnacle of modern toughness in Boston. There's an object lesson in the real impact of this stuff on the scoreboard there.

Also, grit, pushback and so on are only really effective when its near the top of the lineup where significant minutes actually happen, If you want a counter to Lucic, Hartnell etc. it has to be there rather than the bottom.

Now I will give you that I'd far rather overpay for a Prust who plays minutes than even consider playing a Laraque, Staublitz, Scott or Parros who are useless in hockey terms.

The biggest problem Montreal faces right now is they appear unable to win more than one line matchup with the personel they have right now. Plekanec is unlikely to beat the tough matchups with just Gionta as support and Eller isn't going to score enough with the guys we have and have added to be a good bet to win his. Its very hard to be a good team winning only one top 3 line matchup. Montreal needs to regenerate the depth in two-way talent that let them have 3 good lines to start 2011-12 if they want to be good on even strength again. As of right now they've done little to suggest they'll be able to replace Cammalleri and Kostitsyn, let alone improve on them. Get Plekanec a Cammalleri and Eller a Kostitsyn then they'll have a fighting chance each night of winning the day.

Compared to that issue, this 4th line stuff is a side show. At the end of the day it won't have much bearing on whether the Habs make the playoffs or not.
i don't know when this period where we were "tough to win against" occurred? Aside from 2007-08, we've been a borderline playoff team every season, a mediocre team that might put together a positive streak or two, but always followed by an equally negative stretch...

yes, we had a deadly PP which I'm sure made some opposing players nervous (for fear of being the one to take a bad penalty/give up a goal), but otherwise we've been weak 5-on-5 and iced a smallish team with no one willing/capable to clear the crease or address liberties being taken.


Yes, Pleks is a centre and yes, in clutch moments (late in games, when score is tied/tight, down the stretch) he's obviously going to get his minutes, but adding depth to quality PK fwds is never a bad thing. Pleks is the top C for PK situations but it's much easier to give more minutes to your 2nd/3rd rated PK C if you have greater confidence in the wingers/other fwds you have to complement.
While in the EA sports world, it's fine and dandy to simply put your top rated guys in all of the important roles, in the real world, players have ego's that get affected by their stat line/media focus, and if you give a player like Pleks a few extra shifts/nights off of the gruelling PK role (he played 3:13/g on the PK last year, dropping that to ~2:30 might seem like a minor difference, but over 82 games that can have a huge impact)

We had Plekanec with Cammalleri last year... didn't do us much good.
We had Kost on the roster last year... while there were nice glimpses with Eller, neither coach seemed convinced enough to give them consistent time together.

again, while on paper it looks nice just to add in guys who have had strong offensive seasons in the past, in reality, finding the right chemistry is more in tune with production/success than simply adding skill player A with skill player B.

no doubt we still need to upgrade our top-6, but that doesn't make the upgrades we've made to our bottom-6 a bad thing.

of all the bottom-6 players we've had in recent years that coaches bumped into top-6 roles (either due to injury or to "cleverness") Armstrong has the potential to be by far the most effective.

moving forward, getting rid of Bourque and adding two players into the top-9 that have greater production potential is the objective, but finding those players is always a challenge.

Hopefully we can land Jagr, and perhaps Semin (if it doesn't require a huge cap/term commitment), or find a suitable trade partner (Hemsky?) where we won't have to give up a ton unless getting a bonafide star (Ryan?).

if not? team is better today than it was in April... with a bit of injury luck, we're right back in the playoff conversation and with young guys like Gally/Gallagher/Kristo/Collberg in the pipeline, perhaps we go the Phoenix route for the next season or two (scoring by committee, winning from the goal out, being "hard to play against"), which is still an upgrade over the past few years, and wait for the top-6 "skill" upgrades to come internally.

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07-02-2012, 11:21 AM
  #398
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Hmmm...I dont' think it's a secret the Habs lacked a player like Prust, a player with character and grit, and who brings intangibles that can't be measured in stats and/or dollar figures.

Did they have to overpay, yes, given they were lacking that element. Just like if they sign Zack Parise, they'll have to overpay to add the element of scoring.

When you NEED an element and you don't have it within your organization, you have to overpay to get it. But what I don't get is that there is MORE than enough money to go around for this type of signing, so why does it bother you so much?

who cares about how much money he makes, if he makes this team a better team...(although some may argue he doesn't...I think he does)
They had Moen and White for that kind of 4th line role on the wing. The priority should be getting enough good forwards that Moen is a 4th liner in a healthy lineup. If he was a center it could be justified by riding the everyday lineup of a sub-NHL player in Nokia. But he's another wing.

Your acting like adding a Prust is the difference between winning and losing. Its not and no one should expect that from the 4th line. But this guy is paid the salary of two decent 4th line players

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07-02-2012, 11:22 AM
  #399
montreal
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Going into the off-season White was the only good 4th liner they had true. But they resigned Moen who should be about 10th on a good teams forward depth and acquired Armstrong. That should be enough for 4 line wings. The Habs should be looking at getting players higher in the depth chart to push these guys down some spots not add more.

Even if its not. No one should ever get the tiniest bit desperate about the 4th line this early in the off-season because its such a low impact role. The position they should be getting desperate over is 2nd line LW
Moen is more a 3rd liner, but either way our bottom 6 was not looking very good again, and now it's improved. I think having such a crappy 4th line last year really hurt and now we should have a much improved 4th line so like I said it's a start.

Not sure what else management can do to improve the forwards. The UFA pool is very thin for top 6 fowards, the Habs don't have a ton of cap space, at least until they figure out what to do with Gomez. I know the easy answer is send him down but until they do I won't believe that's what they will do, same for a buyout.

I think that management saw that we sorely needed to fix our 4th line (among other things) and that they could safely do so without ham stringing themselves when they give Price his big payday and whatever they end up giving to Subban (plus they have to lock up Pacioretty next summer)

For me, I wouldn't want them to go big in the UFA market or via trades until they fix the large defense problem we have. But I really like that they addressed two big holes, one is improving the 4th line and the other is getting more hard working/gritty players.

Also love that they upgraded the goalie depth chart and improved our forward prospect depth at the draft.

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07-02-2012, 11:23 AM
  #400
Et le But
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
They had Moen and White for that kind of 4th line role on the wing. The priority should be getting enough good forwards that Moen is a 4th liner in a healthy lineup. If he was a center it could be justified by riding the everyday lineup of a sub-NHL player in Nokia. But he's another wing.

Your acting like adding a Prust is the difference between winning and losing. Its not and no one should expect that from the 4th line. But this guy is paid the salary of two decent 4th line players
Well, his salary compliments the $7M 4C that the Habs are currently carrying.

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