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Rick Nash - The Frenzy...continues

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Old
07-02-2012, 12:11 PM
  #176
Zetsyuk
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I feel like no matter what offer Howson gets, he's going to hold out for a better one. The guy doesn't understand that his perceived value of Nash DNE the rest of the league's view.

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07-02-2012, 12:12 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
It is incredibly foolish to pay the price for the kind of production you hope a player can produce, rather than what you know he's producing right now.

Nash was never a top tier elite player anyways aside from a year or two.

e: and that's because I'm giving him credit for co-winning the Richard with like 41 goals

Especially when you're the Rangers. Are we really going to pretend that this type of attitude normally pans out? This is a team with a very defensive system, numbers are going to go down for players when they come here.

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07-02-2012, 12:14 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by candyman82 View Post
I would say a guy who has scored 30 goals five seasons in a row would be considered elite by most standards
I'm glad 29 other teams and their fans have higher standards. Rick Nash is lazy, doesn't elevate people around him, is poor defensively, and rarely puts a body to someone.

Pay five bucks for NHL Vault, watch him over the last three seasons. He has been abysmal.

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Old
07-02-2012, 12:15 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
It is incredibly foolish to pay the price for the kind of production you hope a player can produce, rather than what you know he's producing right now.

Nash was never a top tier elite player anyways aside from a year or two.

e: and that's because I'm giving him credit for co-winning the Richard with like 41 goals
I disagree. Nash has shown to be a consistent goalscorer on a team that has not had much talent to surround him with. I think you can easily project he would put up even better numbers on a better team-or at least into a better situation (the Canes just did the same thing with Jordan Staal). I'm not saying Nash will warrant a king's ransom (especially with his contract), but the Jackets will get some nice pieces-including NHL ready talent.

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07-02-2012, 12:16 PM
  #180
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Reading this thread makes me realize the word elite is tossed around way too often in sports today.

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07-02-2012, 12:17 PM
  #181
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Well, the Rangers only have two prospects that I would consider blue-chip guys. Stepan and Kreider. Both of these are apparently off the table. The next class down lends Erixon, Miller, Thomas, and Hagelin. Tim Erixon is the last guy the Blue Jackets would ask for given what he pulled with Calgary, after the Jeff Carter and Nikita Filatov fiascos the Jackets are very skittish on guys with character issues. J.T. Miller is a good prospect and a guy I wouldn't mind as a piece for a Nash deal, but I don't see him ever being more than a second line player. Christian Thomas, although skilled, doesn't hold very much value to the Jackets, no offense but he seems like a poor mans Cam Atkinson. Hagelin is a guy I would love to see on the Blue Jackets, but I think he also maxes out as a very good second liner. These are far from middling prospects, but does that make them really worth a guy who is one of only five players in the league to score 30 goals every year since the lockout?
Stepan and Hagelin aren't prospects, they're NHL players. The prospect ship has sailed on the both of them. If these were both prospects, then you'd have a point that you'd want more. But you're not getting two of our top-6 forwards for an overpaid and underproductive player that wants out. Sorry.

As for Thomas, a poor man's Cam Atkinson??? This is a guy that has scored 54 goals in the OHL. I don't know if you can say poor man's version. I highly doubt you've ever seen Thomas play if that's the case.

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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Nope...Hagelin instead of Miller would do. And I wouldn't really like that....And most CBJ fans wouldn't like it either because there is really no centerpiece. It would just be settling.

Just plug in Miller for Hagelin dude. I mean Miller is a "top" prospect right? Like Hagelin last year but better, right?
Centerpiece? This is a guy that wants out. You're not getting a centerpiece can't miss prospect for a guy that wants out and has produced anywhere near the level he should have while having a cap-killing contract.

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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Rick Nash has been a top line winger for several years.
Hasn't played like it the last 3.

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McDonagh has played close to top pairing ability for several months.
Basically this entire season, you mean, and then played about 28 minutes per game in the playoffs?

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There is no guarantee he becomes a #1, I remember last playoffs with P.K. Subban vs Boston, there was lots of talk of him being a top 15 defender in the NHL now look.
And there's no guarantee Nash ever returns to form and scores 40 goals or about 80 points per year in a different scenario on a different team. You say all of these other arguments are based on variables and hypotheticals, but ignore the ones you base your own arguments on.

Just like how you and others have called Dubinsky a cap dump because of one down year, but ignore the fact that Nash has had 3 bad years in a row and the red carpet of excuses rolls right out for him.

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Regressions can happen. I can fully understand not wanting to trade him, but a little perspective, please....
Regressions can happen, see: Rick Nash's 3 year regression.

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But I don't think this equates to him settling for less than what he feels Nash is worth to the organization. Nash hasn't said he will sit out if he is not traded so Howson's back isn't completely against the wall here. Once Parise is signed and (if) Ryan is traded, the market will be heavily shifted to Nash (imo) and Howson may end up getting what he's looking for. Especially if Pitt lands Parise and Philly lands Ryan.
No, but there will be unrest and Joe Resnick has publicly stated that he wants a deal done and wants Nash out of Columbus.

You can say all you want about Nash not saying that he'll hold out, but when it comes down to it, it will become a bigger distraction and his trade value will lower even more.

The longer this drags on, the more it hurts Howson and Nash's value. You can argue that until it beats you blue **** in your pants, but there's no way around it.

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Old
07-02-2012, 12:17 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by candyman82 View Post
The story of the Columbus Blue Jackets
Exactly. Nobody knows this better than us.

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07-02-2012, 12:18 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by torque View Post
Nash is basically an older Bobby Ryan on an overpayed contract. All fielded offers should be slightly less than the return for Bobby Ryan.
Ryan - top 10 in scoring twice
Nash - Top 5 twice including a 1st.

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07-02-2012, 12:20 PM
  #184
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Id just like to point out, and add on to Candyman, that only 4 players have scored 30 goals in each of the last 5 seasons. Nash, Iginla, Ovechkin, and Kovalchuk. Take it for what its worth.

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07-02-2012, 12:23 PM
  #185
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I am sure the Fyers will be willing to trade Bryzgalov for Nash. CBJ need a goalie, right?

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07-02-2012, 12:24 PM
  #186
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You can't ignore the big picture. I can't say Nash is a 59 point player anymore than Jackets fans can say Dubinsky is a 10 goal scorer. Neither argument represents the bigger picture. Just the same as saying Nash has been a top-line winger for several years doesn't make him more valuable than a kid who has been a top-pairing D for one year.
Rick Nash scoring 59 points isn't that far off from his general average...his 79 point season is an outlier, he's usually a 65-70 point player which pegs him as a good 1st liner. Not an elite player, but a good first liner

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07-02-2012, 12:25 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Auzzie19 View Post
TOR:
- Nash (7.8 m)

CLB:
- Kadri (1.72 m)
- Connolly (4.7 m)
- Blacker (0.87 m)
- McKegg (0.87 m)

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07-02-2012, 12:27 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Rick Nash scoring 59 points isn't that far off from his general average...his 79 point season is an outlier, he's usually a 65-70 point player which pegs him as a good 1st liner. Not an elite player, but a good first liner
No, absolutely not. Rick Nash is on a bad team, therefore, on a good team he will be an 80 point player. Nothing else matters. The defensive system? Irrelevant. A new coach? Irrelevant. He will be a better player on the Rangers, and that thought process has gone over very well in the past.

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07-02-2012, 12:30 PM
  #189
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Only because he isn't given a fair shake in T.O. Have you seen the **** Burke is putting on the ice, trying to sell as a "playoff contender" haha
Yeah.

And I am not quite sure why TML would be interested in Nash in the first place. They have had the same need for the last four years. A number one goaltender and a number one center.

Must be the lure of the big name.

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07-02-2012, 12:30 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Rick Nash scoring 59 points isn't that far off from his general average...his 79 point season is an outlier, he's usually a 65-70 point player which pegs him as a good 1st liner. Not an elite player, but a good first liner
I know, I was just making a point. I happen to believe that Nash could be an elite player under the right circumstances, but I'm not coughing up prime assets to gamble on that notion.

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07-02-2012, 12:31 PM
  #191
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To NYR: Nash + 2013 1st (LA)

To CBJ: Stepan + MDZ

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07-02-2012, 12:33 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by candyman82 View Post
I would say a guy who has scored 30 goals five seasons in a row would be considered elite by most standards
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I disagree. Nash has shown to be a consistent goalscorer on a team that has not had much talent to surround him with. I think you can easily project he would put up even better numbers on a better team-or at least into a better situation (the Canes just did the same thing with Jordan Staal). I'm not saying Nash will warrant a king's ransom (especially with his contract), but the Jackets will get some nice pieces-including NHL ready talent.
Quote:
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Rick Nash scoring 59 points isn't that far off from his general average...his 79 point season is an outlier, he's usually a 65-70 point player which pegs him as a good 1st liner. Not an elite player, but a good first liner
But he is an elite goal scorer. Which I point out not to suggest that makes him an elite player, nor that he should return something elite, but that scoring goals is something that holds a good bit of value.

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07-02-2012, 12:33 PM
  #193
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What would blue jacket fans think of a deal involving JVR+.

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07-02-2012, 12:33 PM
  #194
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I know, I was just making a point. I happen to believe that Nash could be an elite player under the right circumstances, but I'm not coughing up prime assets to gamble on that notion.
THIS.

I'd rather sign Semin for a year than carry that crazy contract or trade assets.

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07-02-2012, 12:34 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Rick Nash scoring 59 points isn't that far off from his general average...his 79 point season is an outlier, he's usually a 65-70 point player which pegs him as a good 1st liner. Not an elite player, but a good first liner
If Nash is good for 70 points while bringing a large body, a physical style of play and good defense, I would call that elite.

70 points would have had Nash in top 20 scoring last seasons, and 6th-7th among right wingers. Scoring is going down, and consistency to put up points is highly valued by GM's.

It's also really undervalued on this board.

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07-02-2012, 12:34 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Stepan and Hagelin aren't prospects, they're NHL players. The prospect ship has sailed on the both of them. If these were both prospects, then you'd have a point that you'd want more. But you're not getting two of our top-6 forwards for an overpaid and underproductive player that wants out. Sorry.

As for Thomas, a poor man's Cam Atkinson??? This is a guy that has scored 54 goals in the OHL. I don't know if you can say poor man's version. I highly doubt you've ever seen Thomas play if that's the case.
You're right about Stepan for sure, I should have had made that clearer. I still consider Hagelin a prospect as he only has one NHL season under his belt. Also, I wasn't listing them as the pieces that would come together as part of a Nash deal, just as the some of the pieces that are being thrown around.

As for Christian Thomas, I have seen him play. Never in person, so I will admit that there are things I may not caught while watching him. Poor man's version was probably a too harsh, but I do not think that he will be a better player than Cam Atkinson. They seem very similar, but I would take Atkinson over Thomas.

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07-02-2012, 12:34 PM
  #197
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CBJ fans need to realize that we don't want him and we dont need him, there's other players we could get other players just as talented as Nash for less.
7.8m 70pt player for Kreider, Stepan, McD, lay off the drugs howson.

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07-02-2012, 12:35 PM
  #198
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My perspective is fine. Yes, players can regress. We really don't need to look any further than Rick Nash and his three consecutive seasons of declining production to prove that point. However, I'm far more inclined to put McDonagh ahead of Nash in terms of overall value. When you consider the talent, age, and cap implications, it's a no-brainer for me. When you take all of those things into account, there's a laundry list of players I'd put ahead of Nash. If Nash was on a more reasonable contract, a deal would have been done a long time ago. It's never been about his talent level for most level-headed Ranger fans.

You can't ignore the big picture. I can't say Nash is a 59 point player anymore than Jackets fans can say Dubinsky is a 10 goal scorer. Neither argument represents the bigger picture. Just the same as saying Nash has been a top-line winger for several years doesn't make him more valuable than a kid who has been a top-pairing D for one year.
Rick Nash at his worst is a consistent 30 goal scorer. Brandon Dubinsky just scored 10 goals on an elite team, there is a huge difference there. I'll grant they are a defensive team, but other offensive players have still benefitted. That is a huge concern going into his new deal. If he potted 20G-25A last year, I'm sure the trade would be done. Then again, you would likely be offering Anisimov instead.

I'm not in disagreement with McDonagh being as valuable as Nash, actually I think its close, but my bigger issue is anointing him a top pairing defenseman so soon. If he continues his play into next year then for sure.

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07-02-2012, 12:38 PM
  #199
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What would blue jacket fans think of a deal involving JVR+.
I am not sure what the plus would be, but I really like JVR. To be honest, if you are intending on flipping him, you would probably be better off trying to get a center.

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07-02-2012, 12:38 PM
  #200
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Rick Nashtly have made a statement to CBJ fans.

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Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry
Never gonna say goodbye
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you

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