IIHF World ChampionshipDiscuss International Tournaments like the WJC, Olympics, and World Cup, as they take place, or discuss past tournaments. performances.
The Rankings are a Joke because Canada's junior team is without a significant amount of players every year because they are talented enough to be playing in the NHL. We are literally too good for this tournament. The only time the world has ever seen a true top junior team was in 2005...and guess who, to no surprise, mopped the floor with everyone.
The mens rankings should be based only on Olympics because that is the only tournament where mens play best on best. The World championship rosters look nothing like the ones from the olympics so why are they used as a measuring stick for hockey supremacy? it's stupid, and solution is simple...you win the olympics and your the best..duuuhhh and canada has won the most, and most recent olympics.
In my opinion, despite the Russians early exit from the olympics, they are the second best hockey nation and only went out that early because they had to face canada.
The IIHF under 18's don't allow our best because our juniors are in the CHL. the ivan hlinka however does not allow us to put our best in and we've dominated it. although not all teams send their best in that either so we really have no measuring stick at that level. but the under 17's are comprised of the rest of the worlds best against individual provinces from canada, and still we are the best in that. could you imagine what would happen if we combined our country into one team like everyone else.
We are the best. End of story.
No they should not just be based on the Olympics because then how do you rank the lower teams who did not get to the Olympics? The whole point of the ranking is to decide who qualifies automatically for the Olympics, and the seeding for the qualification rounds.
And for the millionth time the junior ranking is for research purposes, they even acknowledge in the article Canada does not have it's best team, it is mostly for the lower ranked teams. Stop calling it "a joke" when it is not even official!
The Rankings are a Joke because Canada's junior team is without a significant amount of players every year because they are talented enough to be playing in the NHL. We are literally too good for this tournament. The only time the world has ever seen a true top junior team was in 2005...and guess who, to no surprise, mopped the floor with everyone.
Then suit up. Don't whine about international tournaments and rankings if you have a system that don't give a ******* about it. If you want to be number 1 year after year you either win the tournaments or you make sure that your system adjust to international hockey. Otherwise, stop whining.
Then suit up. Don't whine about international tournaments and rankings if you have a system that don't give a ******* about it. If you want to be number 1 year after year you either win the tournaments or you make sure that your system adjust to international hockey. Otherwise, stop whining.
The "system" is every country plays with their best players and loses maybe one or two to the NHL, while canada has the talent to beat every body hands down year in and year out, but loses a ton each year. 2010. No john tavares, michael delzotto, matt duchene, evander kane, tyler myers, steven stamkos.
Same thing in 2011, same thing last year...same thing every year, and I know we still own the thing, but 3 years in a row our country's been heartbroken, and undeserving of it. We are the best and we are not being allowed to show that we are the best because of scheduling procedures and changing of OUR GAME by an organization that is run by europeans.
Last edited by stv11: 08-17-2012 at 04:30 PM.
Reason: removed profanity
The "system" is every country plays with their best players and loses maybe one or two to the NHL, while canada has the talent to beat every body hands down year in and year out, but loses a ton each year. 2010. No john tavares, michael delzotto, matt duchene, evander kane, tyler myers, steven stamkos. That is RETARDED!!
Same thing in 2011, same thing last year...same thing every year, and I know we still own the thing, but 3 years in a row our country's been heartbroken, and undeserving of it. We are the best and we are not being allowed to show that we are the best because of scheduling procedures and changing of OUR GAME by an organization that is run by europeans.
Your system does not support international play. Your senior professional teams (NHL) does not have junior teams and could not care less about youth development (taken care off by other teams) and international hockey. The europeans has not changed "your" game, they have just built a domestic hockey system that supports international hockey for both senior and junior teams. The problem is not Europe, it's Canada. Kick the NHL down south of the border and come up with a hockey system that suits you if you feel heartbroken. Or try to convince the Americans that there are life outside the borders of the USA (good luck).
For example, how about Edmonton Oilers Jrs in the CHL? Have no idea if that's even possible since it is two private leagues with no connections to each other. But then you have a chance to send that team reinforced with RNH and Yakupov instead of Sudbury Wolves to the World cup for junior teams.
Typical Canadian mind: "Ignore the facts, Canada is the best - no matter what".
If you are so much better than everyone else, why don't you always win WJC/WC/OG-golds? In the WCs all the top nations miss their best players and usually play with their B or C teams, yet Canada (that is supposed to be so much better than everyone else, despite the facts) often have problems even getting a medal.
By how it is sounding it is weird that Canada haven't won much in the U18's/U20's the last few years, even if you miss players you are still soooo much better than the rest of the world that that shouldn't be an issue for you anyway.
The rankings are based on how the teams does on the ice. If you don't win you wont be ranked as the best team either, it is actually quite simple.
Bulls-h-i-t! Your system does not support international play. Your senior professional teams (NHL) does not have junior teams and could not care less about youth development (taken care off by other teams) and international hockey. The europeans has not changed "your" game, they have just built a domestic hockey system that supports international hockey for both senior and junior teams. The problem is not Europe, it's Canada. Kick the NHL down south of the border and come up with a hockey system that suits you if you feel heartbroken.
For example, how about Torontr Maple Leafs Jrs in the CHL?
Yes. It is the NHL teams that will not release their players for the WJC's while the teams in every other country do release them. The NHL also chooses to start its season later than the European leagues, resulting in a clash between the playoffs and WC's. If the NHL starts in September just like every European league, playoffs are done before the WC's. Same for the U18's, just start the CHL season earlier or don't have as many games, if Canada is really that bothered and butthurt about not being able to win.
Canadians, don't blame the IIHF, blame the NHL and CHL.
There are very few times when I feel bad about being a Canadian. It usually only happens when I go on to hockey forum boards and hear the usual Canadian rhetoric; We are the best, the IIHF is out to screw us, etc...
Though I was initially shocked to see us ranked 4th, a quick look at the results from the past two years shows that that's where we should be, at least for the moment. It's also unfortunate that the Ivan Hlinka tournament doesn't count towards the ranking, but it is an unofficial tourny and the one bias out there that I think does exist is the IIHF to a non-IIHF event.
I'm pretty sure Canada's WJC gold drought will be short lived and despite the USA's current dominance at the U18 due to their USNTDP, it really only takes one good game from a Canadian team to unseat them. In other words, we won't be in fourth spot for long so let's not make a big deal out of it.
I am happy to see this ranking out there and have thought it was a few years overdue.
- Canada won 5 straight WJC gold from 2005 - 2009
- Canada won at least WJC silver from 2002 - 2011
- Canada has medaled at the WJC every year since 1999.
We are ranked 4th???
I can understand us not being 1.... but we are definitely 2 or 3
- Canada won 5 straight WJC gold from 2005 - 2009
- Canada won at least WJC silver from 2002 - 2011
- Canada has medaled at the WJC every year since 1999.
We are ranked 4th???
I can understand us not being 1.... but we are definitely 2 or 3
The ranking is based on the last two years, which medals Canada have from 1999 to 2010 doesn't matter.
Canada is again 3rd, clearly behind USA and Sweden.
If you put everything together you can see that all three of Sweden, USA and Russia have done better than Canada have in the last two years in the U20's and U18's, there's really no question about it - Canada has been the 4th best team.
Typical Canadian mind: "Ignore the facts, Canada is the best - no matter what".
If you are so much better than everyone else, why don't you always win WJC/WC/OG-golds? In the WCs all the top nations miss their best players and usually play with their B or C teams, yet Canada (that is supposed to be so much better than everyone else, despite the facts) often have problems even getting a medal.
By how it is sounding it is weird that Canada haven't won much in the U18's/U20's the last few years, even if you miss players you are still soooo much better than the rest of the world that that shouldn't be an issue for you anyway.
The rankings are based on how the teams does on the ice. If you don't win you wont be ranked as the best team either, it is actually quite simple.
Thanks for putting us all in the same boat. You didn't win points with me today.
The rankings are imperfect, they track results of partial teams in a small number of games.
- Many Canadians are frustrated by some HF posters from Europe in the way they use this imperfect tool to feel proud about themselves.
- Many HF posters from Europe are frustrated by Canadians arguments around us not having our best players for every tournament.
Yawn.
Yawn.
Yawn.
It's ok, you guys will have the same discussions in 10 years.(I was there 10 years ago...same thing) Can we move on and not take this so seriously? It's just a game.
It's ok, you guys will have the same discussions in 10 years.(I was there 10 years ago...same thing) Can we move on and not take this so seriously? It's just a game.
Yes, and people really need to learn how to read the OP and article. It isn't meant to be a serious or official ranking.
Nope, sorry, I prefer only Canadians in Canadian junior leagues. Let the European countries sink and swim on their own. If the Germans want, they can go play in Sweden or Russia. Can't have it both ways.
If you want to develop the best talent, you need them to play the best players a lot, so the best Europeans coming to the CHL actually benefits the best Canadian players more than it does the European leagues.
Your system does not support international play. Your senior professional teams (NHL) does not have junior teams and could not care less about youth development (taken care off by other teams) and international hockey. The europeans has not changed "your" game, they have just built a domestic hockey system that supports international hockey for both senior and junior teams. The problem is not Europe, it's Canada. Kick the NHL down south of the border and come up with a hockey system that suits you if you feel heartbroken. Or try to convince the Americans that there are life outside the borders of the USA (good luck).
For example, how about Edmonton Oilers Jrs in the CHL? Have no idea if that's even possible since it is two private leagues with no connections to each other. But then you have a chance to send that team reinforced with RNH and Yakupov instead of Sudbury Wolves to the World cup for junior teams.
I don't know if things are being lost in translation...I don't understand alot of what your saying or how it pertains to this conversation, but I can tell you is that in Canada we have the best youth development program. It's called the canadian hockey league, and not only canadians but americans and swedes, fins and russians come to it because they no it's the best.
Kick the NHL down south of the border? Surely there must be a figurative meaning to that sentence that I'm not seeing because you must know that 23 teams reside in the USA. I haven't the slightest clue what that meaning is though.
I can't wrap my head around the last sentence. I understand your trying to explain some sort of way to allow the best players to play, but the fact is yakupov and RNH will both be playing in the NHL next year and most NHL owners are not willing to give up some of their best young players for 2 weeks or more in the middle of a season, and understandably so.
The IIHF knows exactly what they are doing when they schedule a junior tournament for december, or a mens tournament in the middle of the NHL playoffs. They are evening the playing field. They are giving european teams a better chance to win, and win they are. I'm not saying the rest of the world can put together competitive teams. I'm not saying you guys can't beat the best. The evidence is there. But to look at the medal standings for any IIHF tournament and think that they wouldn't be a line of red and white flags, with a few random colors here and there if our best players weren't being held back is pure asinine. The IIHF's only interests have ever been to grow the game in europe but I don't care about that. We don't need the IIHF to grow hockey..we're ****ing canada..What I can't stand is that a body of governing that is supposed to be looking out for the best interests of EVERY country has done everything it can to handcuff the best, so that other country's can win more often and thus create greater interest and better development. They've developed the game in europe better...there's no doubt about that...but they've cheated to do so...and they will keep cheating to keep that interest. Honestly...who wants to see canada win year in and year out accept canadians. How could you possibly hope to create and sustain a significant fanbase if you were watching decades of red maple leaf flags being strut around the ice at tournaments end. You could not. So they cheat. And its ********.
The IIHF knows exactly what they are doing when they schedule a junior tournament for december, or a mens tournament in the middle of the NHL playoffs..
No, the NHL schedules its playoffs during the mens tournament, not the other way round. I already said this, if the NHL starts its season in September JUST LIKE EVERY EUROPEAN LEAGUE then there is no clash. Almost every European team releases its players for the world juniors, the NHL does not.
Thanks for putting us all in the same boat. You didn't win points with me today.
The rankings are imperfect, they track results of partial teams in a small number of games.
- Many Canadians are frustrated by some HF posters from Europe in the way they use this imperfect tool to feel proud about themselves.
- Many HF posters from Europe are frustrated by Canadians arguments around us not having our best players for every tournament.
Yawn.
Yawn.
Yawn.
It's ok, you guys will have the same discussions in 10 years.(I was there 10 years ago...same thing) Can we move on and not take this so seriously? It's just a game.
Well, you get to hear it a thousand times every time Canada loses. So of course it gets tiresome that a lot of Canadians always have to make up excuses when they aren't winning/getting ranked first.
The point here is that these rankings are for U20's and U18's in the last two years and it's a fact that Canada hasn't been good enough to be ranked anywhere else than 4th, despite all the "or" and "if"s. This is how it is when it comes to these rankings, if they would rank something else, like which countries that produces the best players and ranked Canada 4th I could imagine that people would be upset. As it is now it is just people not reading the OP/Article and just seeing "Canada - 4th" and then raging on how everyone is against them and how much better Canada is than everyone else, which I (and others) find quite annoying.
1. I don't know if things are being lost in translation...I don't understand alot of what your saying or how it pertains to this conversation, but I can tell you is that in Canada we have the best youth development program. It's called the canadian hockey league, and not only canadians but americans and swedes, fins and russians come to it because they no it's the best.
2. Kick the NHL down south of the border? Surely there must be a figurative meaning to that sentence that I'm not seeing because you must know that 23 teams reside in the USA. I haven't the slightest clue what that meaning is though.
3. I can't wrap my head around the last sentence. I understand your trying to explain some sort of way to allow the best players to play, but the fact is yakupov and RNH will both be playing in the NHL next year and most NHL owners are not willing to give up some of their best young players for 2 weeks or more in the middle of a season, and understandably so.
4. The IIHF knows exactly what they are doing when they schedule a junior tournament for december, or a mens tournament in the middle of the NHL playoffs. They are evening the playing field. They are giving european teams a better chance to win, and win they are. I'm not saying the rest of the world can put together competitive teams. I'm not saying you guys can't beat the best. The evidence is there. But to look at the medal standings for any IIHF tournament and think that they wouldn't be a line of red and white flags, with a few random colors here and there if our best players weren't being held back is pure asinine. The IIHF's only interests have ever been to grow the game in europe but I don't care about that. We don't need the IIHF to grow hockey..we're ****ing canada..What I can't stand is that a body of governing that is supposed to be looking out for the best interests of EVERY country has done everything it can to handcuff the best, so that other country's can win more often and thus create greater interest and better development. They've developed the game in europe better...there's no doubt about that...but they've cheated to do so...and they will keep cheating to keep that interest. Honestly...who wants to see canada win year in and year out accept canadians. How could you possibly hope to create and sustain a significant fanbase if you were watching decades of red maple leaf flags being strut around the ice at tournaments end. You could not. So they cheat. And its ********.
1. I did not attack the Canadian development system, it is pretty obvious that it works excellent. What I did write about was that your the hockey system in general does allow for international competition. Domestic competition above everything else. International competition when we have the time or when we feel like it.
2. You whine about the best Canadian players not being able to compete internationally. Duh! They play in the NHL, a league that stretches from late September/early October to June. What's their view on international competition? If you care so must about how you are ranked on international rankings and feel heartbroken when those rankings does not show the greatness of Canada, then do something about it. Come up with a system that allow for international competition. I highly doubt NHL will change much..
3. I used that as an example of how you could mount a junior team with top junior players for an international competition as the World cup for junior teams (which is played now by the way). No NHL teams has junior teams within the organisation so guys like RNH and Yakupov can't play. European hockey clubs all have junior teams within their organisation and can move talanted juniors playing with the senior team down to reinforce the juniors if they want to. This was just an example, nothing more.
4. A lot of that is just bull. I remember the big red machine from Soviet union. Pretty much unbeatable in Europe at that time. Was that boring? No. The opposite. They were an inspiration for the teams at that time. Everyone worked their ***** off to beat them and everyone wanted to see them play. Stacked Canadian teams would be good for international competition. Swedes, russians, czechs, fins etc would step it even more to be able to beat them. And the fans would love to see the games even more.
The IIHF knows exactly what they are doing when they schedule a junior tournament for december, or a mens tournament in the middle of the NHL playoffs. They are evening the playing field. They are giving european teams a better chance to win, and win they are. I'm not saying the rest of the world can put together competitive teams. I'm not saying you guys can't beat the best. The evidence is there. But to look at the medal standings for any IIHF tournament and think that they wouldn't be a line of red and white flags, with a few random colors here and there if our best players weren't being held back is pure asinine. The IIHF's only interests have ever been to grow the game in europe but I don't care about that. We don't need the IIHF to grow hockey..we're ****ing canada..What I can't stand is that a body of governing that is supposed to be looking out for the best interests of EVERY country has done everything it can to handcuff the best, so that other country's can win more often and thus create greater interest and better development. They've developed the game in europe better...there's no doubt about that...but they've cheated to do so...and they will keep cheating to keep that interest. Honestly...who wants to see canada win year in and year out accept canadians. How could you possibly hope to create and sustain a significant fanbase if you were watching decades of red maple leaf flags being strut around the ice at tournaments end. You could not. So they cheat. And its ********.
Absolute nonsense, because it's against the IIHF's economic interests to "only look out for Europe and intentionally handcuff Canada".
Case in point - Why is basically every WJC held in or around Canada? The amount of money generated from a WJC held in North America (especially Canada) is astounding.......and A TON of that gets pumped back into Hockey Canada. It's a unique venture that cannot and does not exist elsewhere. Do you honestly believe the IIHF wants to handicap one of its biggest money makers? If anything, its in the IIHF's interest for Canada to win gold every year.
Likewise, remember when the IIHF critisized Crosby for not playing in the Worlds? Would the IIHF do such a thing if they wanted Canada to lose?
Its been discussed ad nauseam, the IIHF would love the world's best to participate in every tournament.....however, there simply isn't a better time to hold these events.
1. I did not attack the Canadian development system, it is pretty obvious that it works excellent. What I did write about was that your the hockey system in general does allow for international competition. Domestic competition above everything else. International competition when we have the time or when we feel like it.
2. You whine about the best Canadian players not being able to compete internationally. Duh! They play in the NHL, a league that stretches from late September/early October to June. What's their view on international competition? If you care so must about how you are ranked on international rankings and feel heartbroken when those rankings does not show the greatness of Canada, then do something about it. Come up with a system that allow for international competition. I highly doubt NHL will change much..
3. I used that as an example of how you could mount a junior team with top junior players for an international competition as the World cup for junior teams (which is played now by the way). No NHL teams has junior teams within the organisation so guys like RNH and Yakupov can't play. European hockey clubs all have junior teams within their organisation and can move talanted juniors playing with the senior team down to reinforce the juniors if they want to. This was just an example, nothing more.
4. A lot of that is just bull. I remember the big red machine from Soviet union. Pretty much unbeatable in Europe at that time. Was that boring? No. The opposite. They were an inspiration for the teams at that time. Everyone worked their ***** off to beat them and everyone wanted to see them play. Stacked Canadian teams would be good for international competition. Swedes, russians, czechs, fins etc would step it even more to be able to beat them. And the fans would love to see the games even more.
1. OK
2. What the hell am I, a lobster fisherman from Nova Scotia supposed to do about the NHL's schedule. Obviously the NHL has the power to change whatever aspects of it's game that it wants to, but why would it do that? It's priority is to grow the game in the states and create profit. If they started the season on the first of september, they would be overlapping another month and a half with football. Going head to head with america's favourite sport... that's not how you grow the game in the US.
My option is simple and doesn't force massive already established seasons from premier sports leagues to be adjusted. The IIHF simply schedules it's little two week tournament in june. duhhhh.
3. I understand your example but it doesn't solve the problem. Every NHL team does have it's own minor league team. That doesn't mean yakupov and RNH are going to be sent automatically come world junior time. And that idea would just be pointless. They don't need to be sent down to be allowed to play in the WJC, they just need to be given the ok by nhl owners. Hopefully more owners will start to allow their players to leave like connely and Devante smithpelley last year, but i don't see that being very likely for guys like RNH, or yakupov or really anyone of that caliber and I can't say i blame them. I'm a habs fan, and I don't want to see effective players being taken out of our lineup in the middle of the season if we're trying to catch a playoff position. I also don't want to see them miss the opportunity to play for their team. I want everyone to be able to play their best, cause unless we beat the other country's best it would be a hollow victory. That is why again, the solution is simple. Schedule the tournament somewhere after the NHL playoffs.
And 4. The big red machine, the soviets that were sooo great back then are just another example of exactly the kind of ******** i'm talking about. Were the soviets a good team, absolutely, they were great. We were better. But we only got limited chances to prove that because the olympics only allowed amateur players. The first time that great soviet's and canada's best clashed was in 1972. It was called the summit series, and we won. And after that we met them in 5 canada cups for which we won 4 of, as well as 2 world cup of hockey tourney's where we won one, and then 2 of the 4 olympics since 1998. How many of those only best on best tournaments to ever take place in international hockey have the russians won? just 1.
I understand the meaning of the OP and that it is not a rank of the best outputting of players by a country. That's why i'm pissed off at it. Because it should be. I don't want false information put out there. I don't want any other country to even think for a second that they are the best, and yes, i may be a little bit arrogant when it comes to this topic, but I want the world to know, and never forget that we are the best, and we always will be.
and canada has won the most, and most recent olympics.
