Yeah. I should have known that crapping on Nash in the Columbus board would not be swallowed. But I also had completely forgot how good he was in the Olympics. My memory was muddy. My powers are not what they used to be.
At least you owned up to it. Don't see that much around here.
__________________
“@Aportzline: RT @skeezer1212: @Aportzline are you on record about if you think they should trade Nash, *Carter? / Not my place. Reporter, not columnist.”
Yeah. I should have known that crapping on Nash in the Columbus board would not be swallowed. But I also had completely forgot how good he was in the Olympics. My memory was muddy. My powers are not what they used to be.
The truth is, if Nash would play every CBJ game as if it was the Olympics Gold medal game even I would fight to keep him... Nash is what he is, play to the degree of expectation, no more, no less.
The league is not stupid; they know Nash as well as us.
I would agree that Nash is not one dimensional. The problem is that very often in Columbus over the past 3 seasons he has kept many of those dimensions hidden. Or had them hidden for him by his absence from the PK and his positioning on the PP.
I thought a very interesting comment about Nash in the Puckrakers article was that "Nash still has a lot of junior in his game" I took that to mean when he gets the puck he tries to skate with the puck too much and tries to out skill the opponent one on one. If that is a correct interpretation I agree and would think that is one of the reasons he doesn't make his teammates better. That and the fact that most of his teammates haven't been 1st line material.
I would agree that Nash is not one dimensional. The problem is that very often in Columbus over the past 3 seasons he has kept many of those dimensions hidden. Or had them hidden for him by his absence from the PK and his positioning on the PP.
I thought a very interesting comment about Nash in the Puckrakers article was that "Nash still has a lot of junior in his game" I took that to mean when he gets the puck he tries to skate with the puck too much and tries to out skill the opponent one on one. If that is a correct interpretation I agree and would think that is one of the reasons he doesn't make his teammates better. That and the fact that most of his teammates haven't been 1st line material.
I really think that if Nash played with (one other?) superstars like some of the other players in the league, he would be placed right on that second tier of stars. Is he an Ovechkin/Malkin/Crosby/Stamkos type? I'll throw John Tavares into that group also, as even without star teammates, he's found a way to become a major offensive force. No ... I don't believe Rick is in that group, but would I put his value right up there with a Brad Richards/Toews/Sedin ... yes, I would. Richards has played around talent his entire career - be it the Tampa Bay trio he formed with St. Louis and Lecavalier ... in Dallas he had guys like Morrow, Benn, Ribeiro, etc ... and now in New York he's got Marian Gaborik, Ryan Callahan ... Toews has guys like Sharp, Kane, Hossa ... and the Sedins have, well, each other.
Nash would be a 40/40 stat line guy every year with at least one other player of some note around him. Look at the centers he's played with in his career, and then find a guy who has contributed more points while playing with such mediocre players.
I believe that whoever we trade him to - be it Detroit to play with Datsyuk; reuniting him with Jumbo Joe in San Jose; or sending him to Pittsburgh to flank Sidney Crosby; we're all going to see Rick emerge as one of the top players in the game.
Yeah, that goes without saying. It's funny how none of the fans (or GMs, for that matter) of other teams want to give up ANYTHING to get Nash, who they claim is slow, one dimensional, not very good, etc... but they still want him. The best part is you KNOW that whoever gets him will end up seeing him become one of the best 3 players in the league not named Crosby, and Kreider or whatever other "can't miss" that they don't want to give up will end up tanking/regressing/missing/whatever once he gets here.
Brad Richards was traded for Mike Smith, Jeff Halpern, Jussi Jokinen, and a 4th round draft pick. Tampa had to trade him because after signing him to a 5 year, $7.8 million per season contract 2 years earlier, they seemed to be running out of money. Brad Richards was 27 at the time. Some may argue that Howson doesn't have to trade Nash, but once a player has asked for a trade, he has to be traded. It's a fact. Nash isn't very smart. Howson is inept. This is mostly Howson's fault but, Nash is a one dimensional, unsophisticated player, he doesn't make his teammates better. He's never won a playoff game. So I don't see how a sane person expects to get more value than that Richards deal.
It's also pretty widely known that Tampa Bay refused to consider any deal that didn't involve an NHL goalie.
I don't think it's said enough exactly how big of a variable a goalie is, although I exhaust myself telling everyone. Having a goalie at the top of a draft class completely changes the logistics, needing a goalie or needing to dump a goalie in a trade completely changes everything...
Also, nothing that Tampa Bay did between 2005-2011 should be used as a benchmark for anything.
Well, I'll grant you if I was passing the puck to a pure sniper I would have I career year in the NHL.
I live in NYC, and one of my better friends here is a Jersey native and Rangers fan. He's a great guy. But in talking about Nash and the possibility of a trade to the Rangers, he refers to Nash as a sniper, too.
Nash is not a sniper! Somehow, presumably through local talk radio, the consensus here is that he is. He can play that way and score goals because he has top end talent. But his game is power. A team that plays him as a sniper will be misplaying him and will miss out on his other talents.
At least that's how I see it.
Also, those who believe that now he's asked out we have to trade him I think are misreading the situation or applying other situations to this one. Based on his resigning here, and his personality generally, I think he's capable of putting this saga behind him if he's not traded and contributing to the team. He has his faults, but his character I don't question and he's already demonstrated sentimentality to this city and team. I think he could stay here and with this roster at least make some noise.
I wish he'd march into Howson's office and firmly tell him: "I want to win. I'm tired of this s**t! I'll stay if you can meet two demands by training camp: goalie and first line right winger. If January comes and we're out of playoff contention again, move me by the deadline or I won't report to training camp next season. If you agree, call the press conference and announce you've taken me off the market."
I wish he'd march into Howson's office and firmly tell him: "I want to win. I'm tired of this s**t! I'll stay if you can meet two demands by training camp: goalie and first line right winger. If January comes and we're out of playoff contention again, move me by the deadline or I won't report to training camp next season. If you agree, call the press conference and announce you've taken me off the market."
I want New Jersey to sign Doan.
Pittsburgh to sign Semin
Philadelphia to trade for Ryan.
THEN I want to hear the Rangers fans tell us how much they don't need Nash...
Man, we're never going to get to Nash Thread V with this attitude!
Step it up.
__________________
"Every game, every point is a necessity." -- Ty Conklin, January 2007
"I'll have a chance to compete for the post of first issue. This is the most important thing." -- Sergei Bobrovsky, June 2012
I wish he'd march into Howson's office and firmly tell him: "I want to win. I'm tired of this s**t! I'll stay if you can meet two demands by training camp: goalie and first line right winger. If January comes and we're out of playoff contention again, move me by the deadline or I won't report to training camp next season. If you agree, call the press conference and announce you've taken me off the market."
Howson trades for Dexshow and resigns Juice.
"There ya go, Ricky"
Since the other thread is now closed, quoting JacksJohnson...
Quote:
We've been over this. Whether its said or not , we are rebuilding. There is no plan to win this season, or go all out to squeak in the playoffs. Howson is banking on a lottery pick this season....McKinnon, plus most likely 2 other first round picks. Reading between the lines, this is why Rick asked out. Free agents will never be how this team becomes a winner, maybe a piece here or there. Most small markets have to build thru the draft. I know you like to bash howson, but what promises did he break. The players are every bit as much to blame, as howson is. Nash, umberger, vermette, were all dogs, and didnt play to their potential. I'm indifferent on howson to be honest. He is deliberate, but his trades, drafting, have been generally solid. It's easy to second guess, and when the signings that seem solid and fail, then say the gm can't see the overall big picture. Fact of the matter is, we don't really know what is or has transpired. But to constantly spew hate for the man, without facts is frankly unhealthy. Just my 2 cents.
It would be easy to play the hindsight game, however, some of us have had foresight in complaining about his actions. Going back to last off-season, many of us felt not enough was done on defense...and wouldn't you know that Howson later had to desperately seek out Johnson and Nikitin. Going back to last off-season, many of us thought he failed to address goaltending appropriately...and that turned out to be the case. Going back to last off-season, some of us even pointed out that we lacked the type of forward depth we needed. And here we sit.
So, let's stop pretending those, such as myself, who are attacking Howson are second-guessing him after the fact. We expressed our reservations at the time and I'm still expressing them to this day with respect to goaltending and forward depth.
If this is a rebuild, it is a poor one. Howson should have started the rebuild this off-season. This team should have been taking picks in this years draft, which means he should have moved on from the Nash situation at or before the draft. If we are waiting for next year, that means we're about 4 years from being competitive. Let that sink in. How poor do you think attendance will be if this management team is retained and we let them try to rebuild over the next 5 years?
Howson has had too many off-seasons in his tenure where he's really accomplished nothing to move the team forward and this appears to be yet another one.
The only thing unhealthy is your infatuation with this failed GM despite all the evidence surrounding you that he has once again failed to predict the predictable.
Sorry, I suck at searches and couldn't find the offseason thread... Had time to kill and thought I would look for a wishful thinking lineup. Possible? (probably not likely though)
FORWARDS
Bobby Ryan ($5.100m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / R.J. Umberger ($4.600m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Ryan Johansen ($1.945m) / Cam Atkinson ($0.875m)
Vinny Prospal ($2.500m) / Nick Foligno ($3.083m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Derek MacKenzie ($1.000m) / Mark Letestu ($0.625m) / Jared Boll ($1.050m)
Colton Gillies ($0.625m) / Ryan Russell ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Nikita Nikitin ($2.150m) / Fedor Tyutin ($4.500m)
Jack Johnson ($4.357m) / James Wisniewski ($5.500m)
Adrian Aucoin ($2.250m) / Ryan Murray ($3.000m)
Nick Holden ($0.550m) /
GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)
Dan Ellis ($1.500m)
BUYOUTS
Mike Commodore ($1.542m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,460,476; BONUSES: $2,212,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $11,739,524
I signed Ellis as an experienced goaltender who has some game left (I think). Injured some so it's a gamble but felt he and Bob may be better than Bob and Mason
To SJS: Nash, Calvert
To CBJ: Pavelski, Clowe, 1st
Pavelski becomes our top center and has excellent vision and two way play. Isn't sexy but would be a very good addition. Clowe adds some size and can play anywhere in top 9 much like Foligno
To ANA: Brassard, Moore, 2nd
To CBJ: Ryan
Ryan gets us a sniper back. If we added Pavelski it might allow for a move with Brassard. Moore is tough for me to give up but I think both players address Anaheims needs and are good value. The 2nd may not be top 40 if this lineup were to be iced by Columbus.
Sorry, I suck at searches and couldn't find the offseason thread... Had time to kill and thought I would look for a wishful thinking lineup. Possible? (probably not likely though)
FORWARDS
Bobby Ryan ($5.100m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / R.J. Umberger ($4.600m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Ryan Johansen ($1.945m) / Cam Atkinson ($0.875m)
Vinny Prospal ($2.500m) / Nick Foligno ($3.083m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Derek MacKenzie ($1.000m) / Mark Letestu ($0.625m) / Jared Boll ($1.050m)
Colton Gillies ($0.625m) / Ryan Russell ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Nikita Nikitin ($2.150m) / Fedor Tyutin ($4.500m)
Jack Johnson ($4.357m) / James Wisniewski ($5.500m)
Adrian Aucoin ($2.250m) / Ryan Murray ($3.000m)
Nick Holden ($0.550m) /
GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)
Dan Ellis ($1.500m)
BUYOUTS
Mike Commodore ($1.542m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,460,476; BONUSES: $2,212,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $11,739,524
I signed Ellis as an experienced goaltender who has some game left (I think). Injured some so it's a gamble but felt he and Bob may be better than Bob and Mason
To SJS: Nash, Calvert
To CBJ: Pavelski, Clowe, 1st
Pavelski becomes our top center and has excellent vision and two way play. Isn't sexy but would be a very good addition. Clowe adds some size and can play anywhere in top 9 much like Foligno
To ANA: Brassard, Moore, 2nd
To CBJ: Ryan
Ryan gets us a sniper back. If we added Pavelski it might allow for a move with Brassard. Moore is tough for me to give up but I think both players address Anaheims needs and are good value. The 2nd may not be top 40 if this lineup were to be iced by Columbus.
Bored to tears right now....
Dan Ellis is only a moderate improvement on what we have. That said, it gets Mason out of the locker room.
I think you'd almost certainly have to make upgrade to that Ryan trade. Start by switching the King's first for that 2nd round pick. Then consider Tyutin moved in place of Moore. With Aucoin, I'd still consider that move. It isn't ideal, but I could see the pairs as:
Johnson-Moore
Wiz-Aucoin
Nikitin-Murray
Or some other variation.
With the latest I've heard on Bob Murray's asking price for Ryan, not sure if we could get a deal done that doesn't include Johansen, but I'd be happy to be wrong.
And since the other thread is closed, from blah (sorry for ineptness in transfering a quote from one thread to another):
"I'm sorry if you were offended. But forcing your captain and franchise player to remain when he has asked for a trade is far to complex of an issue then simply say "screw him, he signed the contract".
I can't think of any other way to describe it. The potential for a toxic environment is very real and could be quite foolish to ignore. There is a reason that when a guy asks to get out, the vast majority of the time they are obliged. Usually at a rapid pace, sometimes it takes a bit longer (Danny Boy).
Nash would have to have a change of heart for this to not be a major distraction going into next year. It will get even worse if we start off slow.
I am totally flabbergasted that anyone could take your position. Wanting to keep Howson is more easily defendable, if not by a lot. I would recommend that you don't take such a position if you are easily offended.
I have been called naive before. Upon reflection, it has been a valid criticism on more than one occasion. We all take naive positions from time to time."
To the bolded, I take this position. To me Nordique's making plenty of sense. blah, you and capn are generally such hardasses (not a criticism), you both seem way too soft and/or calculating to me on this issue.
Just because the guy opened the window to a trade doesn't mean the Jackets are obligated to grant him one. There has been no sign of toxicity to these proceedings at all, even with how long it's gone on and with a false start here and there. If there were clear signs of ugliness, I'd be more apt to feel, if not flabbergasted, at least closer to your position. But to this point, I think there is a presentation of Howson as being more boxed in than seems to be the case. I'm glad he's standing firm. And I can't imagine the flaming he'd get if he traded Nash for peanuts (not to be confused with magic beans, and no I don't think an aversion to getting flamed is grounds for not going through with something).
But I'm one who feels it's still 50/50 Nash sticks around, and that he wouldn't be particularly disgruntled if he did.
So just to stir the pot a bit and play off of Xoggz & Capn's proposal-Let's say Nash stays. We trade for Ryan.
Now we have 2 bona fide goal scorers which makes it harder for teams to always throw their top 2 at Nash. Even if we have to trade Johansen + Tyutin.
JJ-Wiz
Nikitin-Aucoin
Moore-Murray (hey we drafted him to be NHL ready)
Savard/Holden
Still not a Cup contender D is weaker, offense a bit stronger. I wouldn't give up LA's 1 for Ryan - either a #2 or a prospect if Johansen and Tyutin weren't enough.
Thoughts? Let's assume for purposes of this discussion we take Nash staying as a given and that he is not a disruption.
One thing worth thinking about, for those of you who think Nash may be disgruntled if he has to return to the club:
Maybe this is already a scenario that both parties have let play out? Maybe this is why Nasher hasn't expanded his list; he has to go to one of these teams to be willing to leave here? Maybe Scott Howson knows that if he doesn't get every ounce of what he's asking for, he'll still have an excellent player coming to camp ready to compete with the team?
