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Old
07-02-2012, 08:40 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
Those things are all possibilities. Kaberle may play better. Bourque might start playing. Markov might be just as effective as ever. And guys like Eller and Diaz might develop even better this year, etc etc. But those are all ifs and unknowns. Which, I know, is all you really ever have to go on sometimes. But you also have to consider we have been a low scoring team for a couple years. Two years ago, Halak and Cammalleri were on fire. Even at that, we looked pretty weak against the Caps. That was a miracle.

But you never know though. Look at the Sens.

But all the thread is saying is temper your expectations. There is nothing wrong with that.
They are all ifs and unknowns...but there's no reason to think Kaberle can't play 5/6 ES minutes and 2nd PP unit and be an asset to this team.

There's no reason to think Bourque can't play 16 or so minutes a night and provide size, speed, and some goal scoring capabilities as well.

There's no reason to think Gionta won't be a 20+ goal scorer on the season.

There's no reason to think Markov can't be a contributing member of this team. He finished the year healthy and there have been no setbacks with him.

That we know of anyways...I think this regime if something came up would tell the fans. I also think that they're monitoring the situation and will assess it as they go.

As for Diaz and Eller (and Emelin) there's no big unknown or if there...young guys improve with experience. Sure Diaz and Emelin aren't young but just turning 26 and having just 1 year experience gives them the potential to be much better than they were last season, when both were pretty darn good all things considered.

Eller, whether he's a 20 goal 30+ assist guy or a 15 goal 20+ assists guy who knows, but he's already a damn good 2 way guy who is just getting better and to his prime age and who has a lot of the assets in a centerman this team has been looking for, for a long time.

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07-02-2012, 08:46 PM
  #52
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this team has been managed by clowns since i don't remember how long probably the last stanley cup we have made one step forward and two steps backs in just about every aspect of Hockey.

we have made probably the 2-3 worst trades in the last 15 years we have traded good young players for spares parts we have drafted the wrong guys, we have been screwed paying the high price for a team that has gone nowhere since 1993.

No i,m sorry i won't temper my expectations, we deserve a winning team, we deserve some players that fives a damn about the team and the meaning of the habs not just their bank account. We deserve a management that seems to know what the **** he is doing.

This team has made so much money on our behalf and cannot even ice a good team. For christ sake we have been eating our pain noire for how long still hoping for better but always getting mediocrity. Look at the other teams that are sucking in every sports, when you suck you lose fans, you lose fans you lose money you lose money your in deep ****. The habs even tough they suck they are almost gaining fans that's not normal.

Don't talk to me about the pressure in mtl we always suck nobody is excepting a cup soon.

The players, the teams owes it to the fans we have been patient enough it,s about darn time we win a ****in stanley cup.

No i won't temper my expectations every single one of us is giving our time our money to this teams because it's our passion we deserve a stanley cup no another 15 years of struggle for a playoff spot.

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07-02-2012, 08:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
They are all ifs and unknowns...but there's no reason to think Kaberle can't play 5/6 ES minutes and 2nd PP unit and be an asset to this team.
All those things hinge upon a group of mostly the same guys playing much better, which is certainly possible. And there are always teams who surprise you, but there are 29 other teams in the league who also have players who might improve next year, etc etc.

And players do not always improve. I do have high expectations for Eller, and I do think Diaz should be better. But Diaz being better is not a given. It is an unknown because not all players improve. I don't think Kostytsin ever looked as beastly as he did that first season playing with Kovy and Pleks. He was supposed to score 40 goals the next year, so many of us thought. Including myself. Though I think it is likely that Diaz will be much better next year, will it be enough to make our defense that much better?

Another thing is, while I love Desharnais, I am still not sure this guy is a legit 1st line center. 1 good year does not a career make. And I am not saying that to trash Desharnais, because I like him. But that's just reality. It's too early to call.

I am not all doom and gloom about next season. And I am not unhappy with Bergevin so far, but tempering your expectations is never a bad thing.

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07-02-2012, 08:48 PM
  #54
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Forget OVER-performing, if guys like Gionta, Bourque, Markov -- and yes, even Gomez -- simply avoid UNDER-performing, it'll make a huge difference in the overall standings. We ain't winning a Cup, but this roster just playing to their usual standards can bubble up as high as a playoff spot just by NOT falling apart or getting injured. And if they don't make the playoffs, no problem, because -- as the OP correctly says -- we're building for a couple of years from now.

The important thing is our foundation pieces for the future -- are they as good as we hoped? Are DD and Pacioretty the real deals? Will Diaz and Emelin be part of our defensive strength, or represent its weakness? When does Eller stop developing and become developed? These guys are our roster for the future, and this year should demonstrate how good they really are, and by extension, how good the Habs will be in two or three years. We have a lot of hope attached to the next wave of Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, etc -- but when they make it up, will they be making a solid team into a great team, or will they simply make a weak team slightly better?

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07-02-2012, 08:49 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
this team has been managed by clowns since i don't remember how long probably the last stanley cup we have made one step forward and two steps backs in just about every aspect of Hockey.

we have made probably the 2-3 worst trades in the last 15 years we have traded good young players for spares parts we have drafted the wrong guys, we have been screwed paying the high price for a team that has gone nowhere since 1993.

No i,m sorry i won't temper my expectations, we deserve a winning team, we deserve some players that fives a damn about the team and the meaning of the habs not just their bank account. We deserve a management that seems to know what the **** he is doing.

This team has made so much money on our behalf and cannot even ice a good team. For christ sake we have been eating our pain noire for how long still hoping for better but always getting mediocrity. Look at the other teams that are sucking in every sports, when you suck you lose fans, you lose fans you lose money you lose money your in deep ****. The habs even tough they suck they are almost gaining fans that's not normal.

Don't talk to me about the pressure in mtl we always suck nobody is excepting a cup soon.

The players, the teams owes it to the fans we have been patient enough it,s about darn time we win a ****in stanley cup.

No i won't temper my expectations every single one of us is giving our time our money to this teams because it's our passion we deserve a stanley cup no another 15 years of struggle for a playoff spot.
You have to be realistic. You can't buy cups anymore. building a cup contending team takes time. You don't have to follow this team nor spend money on them. There are 29 fanbases who think they deserve a cup. You're not entitled to anything.

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07-02-2012, 08:51 PM
  #56
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having a competent gm, coach and being healthy team puts us in the playoffs. simple as that.

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07-02-2012, 08:53 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
All those things hinge upon a group of mostly the same guys playing much better, which is certainly possible. And there are always teams who surprise you, but there are 29 other teams in the league who also have players who might improve next year, etc etc.

And players do not always improve. I do have high expectations for Eller, and I do think Diaz should be better. But Diaz being better is not a given. It is an unknown because not all players improve. I don't think Kostytsin ever looked as beastly as he did that first season playing with Kovy and Pleks. He was supposed to score 40 goals the next year, so many of us thought. Including myself. Though I think it is likely that Diaz will be much better next year, will it be enough to make our defense that much better?

Another thing is, while I love Desharnais, I am still not sure this guy is a legit 1st line center. 1 good year does not a career make. And I am not saying that to trash Desharnais, because I like him. But that's just reality. It's too early to call.

I am not all doom and gloom about next season. And I am not unhappy with Bergevin so far, but tempering your expectations is never a bad thing.
What about Plekx' having better linemates? Even if those linemates are Bourque and Gionta?

I don't see Desharnais as a 1 center either, but the team has 3 solid centers I think. And another potential center down the road who could be great.

I just don't see why this team can't make the playoffs, or why they won't be looking at how they can ice the best possible team NEXT season that they feel they're one of the 20 or so teams come January 1st who can truly believe they can win the cup.

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07-02-2012, 08:54 PM
  #58
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adding a top 3 forward and a top 3 dman makes us a contender. but those things are hard to come by. suter? parise?

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07-02-2012, 08:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
You have to be realistic. You can't buy cups anymore. building a cup contending team takes time. You don't have to follow this team nor spend money on them. There are 29 fanbases who think they deserve a cup. You're not entitled to anything.
If every person was thinking like you there would not be a lot of mtl fans left. It's a commercial rule you never spit on a client or a potential one i'm a client as every habs fan is one and thus we deserve a good product or else we stop buying. I'm not talking about buying a cup i'm talking about making things right if it takes 2-3 years to have a cup winning team so be it i just don't want another bs like the last 15 years.

The fans are the hockey never forget about that if not from us Price would be a lot more sad tonight.

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07-02-2012, 08:57 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
If every person was thinking like you there would not be a lot of mtl fans left. It's a commercial rule you never spit on a client or a potential one i'm a client as every habs fan is one and thus we deserve a good product or else we stop buying. I'm not talking about buying a cup i'm talking about making things right if it takes 2-3 years to have a cup winning team so be it i just don't want another bs like the last 15 years.

The fans are the hockey never forget about that if not from us Price would be a lot more sad tonight.
Great post.

Last year with 2 weeks left in the season the Kings were out of the playoff picture, and looked to be on their way to another middling season.

2 months later they were Cup Champs.

Things happen fast in the NHL.

No one is saying the Habs should be a team to beat next year...but this idea that they're stuck as a bottom 10 team for the next 2-3 years or...that somehow this would be a good thing...is just about the most confusing idea ever.

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07-02-2012, 09:02 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
I just don't see why this team can't make the playoffs, or why they won't be looking at how they can ice the best possible team NEXT season that they feel they're one of the 20 or so teams come January 1st who can truly believe they can win the cup.
They might make the playoffs. Look at New Jersey. Look at Ottawa. Tempering your expectations does not mean "accept the fact that we suck and we are cursed". It means keep them in check. Very little has changed from last year. Except for some bottom liners. And we are counting on guys to improve.

But if you mean, why aren't they going balls out to acquire the best possible team for this upcoming season?? Well, it's like why you don't bet your house and your car on the roulette wheel. Or even why don't you start bench pressing 180 on your first day at the gym. We have a much better chance of being contenders if we build towards that slowly while assessing what needs we have to fill along the way, rather than our new GM just acquiring another big contract. Habs and Leafs have never had trouble spending. Hasn't brought us any closer to the cup.

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07-02-2012, 09:07 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
They might make the playoffs. Look at New Jersey. Look at Ottawa. Tempering your expectations does not mean "accept the fact that we suck and we are cursed". It means keep them in check. Very little has changed from last year. Except for some bottom liners. And we are counting on guys to improve.

But if you mean, why aren't they going balls out to acquire the best possible team for this upcoming season?? Well, it's like why you don't bet your house and your car on the roulette wheel. Or even why don't you start bench pressing 180 on your first day at the gym. We have a much better chance of being contenders if we build towards that slowly while assessing what needs we have to fill along the way, rather than our new GM just acquiring another big contract. Habs and Leafs have never had trouble spending. Hasn't brought us any closer to the cup.
I don't mean that at all. I feel like the market is brutal this year and the Habs are in a bit of a holding pattern while their big salaried guys play out their contracts and a couple of younger guys get a little older.

They have a great goalie and some intriguing guys looking at the roster for next season.

I'm good with tempering expectations, it's the NHL...if you expect your team to win the cup every year you're a buffoon anyways.

I just find this defeatist attitude confusing.

Can someone tell me what NHL franchises organizational make ups you would trade for the Habs? ANd why you would choose those over the Habs?

Look at the 47 or so guys every team has signed as well as the unsigned prospect and tell me which team you're certain will be great now, and later as compared to the Habs chances.

You say very little has changed since last year...not entirely true, but how about from 2 yeras ago where they solidly made the playoffs and got to a 7th game OT in the first round?

Why are so many people so sure the team is so much closer to the 2011/2012 rendition than the 2010/2011 rendition?

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07-02-2012, 09:08 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
If every person was thinking like you there would not be a lot of mtl fans left. It's a commercial rule you never spit on a client or a potential one i'm a client as every habs fan is one and thus we deserve a good product or else we stop buying. I'm not talking about buying a cup i'm talking about making things right if it takes 2-3 years to have a cup winning team so be it i just don't want another bs like the last 15 years.

The fans are the hockey never forget about that if not from us Price would be a lot more sad tonight.
It's not like the Habs have not tried to ice a contending team. The problem is they've had idiots in charge for a long time. We have a new regime. It's only fair we give that regime some time to right the ship. You can't change 15 years of BS in one offseason.

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07-02-2012, 09:11 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Great post.
2 months later they were Cup Champs.
Anything can happen for sure. But look at LA, they had a slow start, then they made some big changes bringing in Richards and Carter. Took a while for things to gel. One thing you have mentioned is that maybe Pleks having Gionta back along with Bourque will make us better. Well it might make us better than last year. But we have had pretty much similar talent before. Pleks, Gionta and Cammy. The only difference is while Bourque and Cammy had similar numbers, Bourque also brings a bit more size the line. I really can't see that improving our scoring that much.

With LA you can say that their regular season was an anomaly. It's a short period. But Pleks has been playing with basically the same level of talent for 2 or 3 years now.

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07-02-2012, 09:11 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
It's not like the Habs have not tried to ice a contending team. The problem is they've had idiots in charge for a long time. We have a new regime. It's only fair we give that regime some time to right the ship. You can't change 15 years of BS in one offseason.
You didn't read my first post? That's what i said. I'm willing to give Bergevin a shot he seems like a nice lad the idea is to have a plan and stick to it.

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07-02-2012, 09:14 PM
  #66
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Anything can happen for sure. But look at LA, they had a slow start, then they made some big changes bringing in Richards and Carter. Took a while for things to gel. One thing you have mentioned is that maybe Pleks having Gionta back along with Bourque will make us better. Well it might make us better than last year. But we have had pretty much similar talent before. Pleks, Gionta and Cammy. The only difference is while Bourque and Cammy had similar numbers, Bourque also brings a bit more size the line. I really can't see that improving our scoring that much.

With LA you can say that their season was an anomaly. Its a much shorter period. Pleks will be playing with pretty much the same talent as he has the past few years.
An anomaly from what? They werne't all that much better the season before when they lost in the first round, or the season before that when they did the same thing.

That similar talent you speak of...it didn't have Cole and Pacioretty complementing it.

I really, really like the idea of Bourque playing with Desharnais and Cole.

I know people will point to Desharnais and Pacioretty's chemistry...but Pacioretty was starting to break out 2 years ago, with Gomez and Gionta. Before Chara "forgot where he was on the ice" and ended his season.

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta
Bourque-Desharnais-Cole
Moen-Eller-Gomez
Prust-Noeky-White/Armstrong

Gomez for all of his faults, still gains the zone pretty nicely and skates well as well.

Eller and Moen are both big bodies good on the forecheck.

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07-02-2012, 09:18 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
An anomaly from what? They werne't all that much better the season before when they lost in the first round, or the season before that when they did the same thing.

That similar talent you speak of...it didn't have Cole and Pacioretty complementing it.

I really, really like the idea of Bourque playing with Desharnais and Cole.

I know people will point to Desharnais and Pacioretty's chemistry...but Pacioretty was starting to break out 2 years ago, with Gomez and Gionta. Before Chara "forgot where he was on the ice" and ended his season.

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta
Bourque-Desharnais-Cole
Moen-Eller-Gomez
Prust-Noeky-White/Armstrong

Gomez for all of his faults, still gains the zone pretty nicely and skates well as well.

Eller and Moen are both big bodies good on the forecheck.
those lines don't look bad actually, i think gomez is really going to dedicate himself this offseason he's probably really embarrassed over what happened.

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07-02-2012, 09:21 PM
  #68
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An anomaly from what? They weren't all that much better the season before when they lost in the first round, or the season before that when they did the same thing.
Yeah but I don't think it's fair to compare this Kings team with before. There were some major changes. So the anomaly stays confined to this season.

In any case, I am not saying the Habs are not going to make the playoffs. Predicting the outcome of a hockey season is like a crap shoot. And there were a lot of major playoff upsets this season. But, I do feel that missing the playoffs is certainly a possible outcome as well, given the fact that we did last year. And we really don't know if any of your 'ifs' will come to pass. So, if we do not make the playoffs I am prepared, and if we do and go a few rounds, no one is happier than me because I get more than what I hoped for.


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07-02-2012, 09:28 PM
  #69
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those lines don't look bad actually, i think gomez is really going to dedicate himself this offseason he's probably really embarrassed over what happened.
Here's the thing...short of a Semin, Doan or something really surprising signing Gomez is not hindering this team from anything. Not next season anyways. If Desharnais and Pacioretty have 2 more big years next year they might be in some trouble but that's to worry about later, no?

Lots of spots on the team Gomez might look decent...forget his big salary.

Last year he had 11 points in 38 games. The season before he had 38 in 80.

If he can be relatively healthy there's no reason to think that he can't at least triple last years production.

Even if you pro rate his numbers last year, the year before he was still way better.

The entire team struggled mightily this year, and Gomez had nagging injuries throughout.

Obviously it'd be preferable if Doan signed and Gomez could be waived...but if not, why not see what he can bring to the table next season?

I'm actually a little excited about Gomez next year. Crazy as it sounds. If he gets on the right line and stays healthy why couldn't he flirt with 50 points? Or why couldn't he VERY realistically hit 35 points?

No great player at forward, need scoring by committee.

You look at Montreal's depth after Pacioretty/Desharnais/Plekanec/Cole last year and it's a massive drop off in points, and goals. There are lots of guys who should help to make things better bit by bit, here and there.

Maybe instead of Blunden and Geoffrion and Palushaj combining to get the team 8 goals or whatever, Prust gives them 7 on his own. Maybe instead of Staubitz, Noekelinen and Darche giving them 9 Armstrong and White give them 14.

Maybe instead of 15 goals from Bourque Giont and Gomez they get 30 from that group (think about how easily that can occur as well...40 isn't even an unrealistic number there).

Yes maybe Cole will get less than 36 and Pacioretty less than 33 (or 32?) but there's no reason to think that short of any season any long term injuries between those 2 guys they should be good for 50 goals. If not more.


Markov needs to be healthy and productive because he will be such an asset to a PP that needs a QB. But other than that huge "if" what are all of the other sutff that's any sort of stretch to see happen next year?

Plekanec...17 last year. Least goals since he became an NHL regular pretty much.

Hell....PK Subban had 14 goals in his rookie year and dropped to 7. What if he hits 12 goals on a hugely improved PP with Markov feeding him all year?

Is 12 unrealistic there? Not at all

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07-02-2012, 09:31 PM
  #70
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Yeah but I don't think it's fair to compare this Kings team with before. There were some major changes.
And comparing the team that will be iced next year to the team that was against Boston when they came close to beating the eventual cup champs there were lots of changes too.

Lots of internal improvements and some guys brought in anew who bring very positive elements to the team.

It's not "fair" to compare any one team to another. All teams are different. You can't expect the expected in the NHL, or any sport these days as much as in years past.

Every good team has question marks and "ifs" they need to go right to do well next year.

What happens if Markov shocks the world, plays 77 games and gets 41 points?

That's huge production that was AWOL last year.

Improved depth, better coaching, more experience...lots of factors that provide change from this years team to last years team.

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07-02-2012, 09:31 PM
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Doesn't sound like we are dumping Gomez. Only this organization would have put up with his act.

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07-02-2012, 09:33 PM
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Doesn't sound like we are dumping Gomez. Only this organization would have put up with his act.
"Hey...you over there! You signed that god awful contract someone offered you and even though other than you simply not appearing to be that good we have no reason to hate you for not living up to that deal! Even though we have no better players who NEED to be in the line up you're getting sent to the minors"-Every GM but Montreal's?

Come on...who cares.

He was pretty solid 3 years ago, not good 2 years ago, not health last year.

He's not blockading any big signings or anything.

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07-02-2012, 09:33 PM
  #73
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Because the Habs don't look like they have competent NHL level coaching and the talent level of the roster is significantly lower than what they started with in 2011-2012.

People would be wise to temper their expectations for next year. After that, well, we'll see, but I'm not encouraged by what I've seen of Bergevin so far.
I agree with point 1 but disagree with point 2.

Bergevin is clearly going for a rebuild, a development year. I think that's the right strategy.

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07-02-2012, 09:34 PM
  #74
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You have to be realistic. You can't buy cups anymore. building a cup contending team takes time. You don't have to follow this team nor spend money on them. There are 29 fanbases who think they deserve a cup. You're not entitled to anything.

I agree with you on probably 95% of your posts.

However, there is no need to tell a fan to cheer for another team just because of his beliefs.

We are all Habs fans (well, maybe with the exception of patofqc) and we all want success. I thought that Dharvey33's post was straight from the heart and filled with passion. If our organization, coaches and players all perform with a similar passion, we will succeed.

My apologies for this post aimed at you but I think that we should avoid asking people to cheer for other teams.

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07-02-2012, 09:34 PM
  #75
clownquestionbro*
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Doesn't sound like we are dumping Gomez. Only this organization would have put up with his act.
are you going to finally cheer for another team? if so, great decision management

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