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Sharks no longer interested in Daniel Winnik

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Old
07-22-2012, 12:47 PM
  #226
SnarkAttack
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Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
Burish is better than Winnik
No, he really isn't.
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Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
Thornton/Marleau seem to be slowing down.
Disagree. Thornton is playing the best all around game of his career and Marleau is still one of the premier goalscorers and skaters in the league.
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Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
I hope Pavelski hasn't peaked.
He's likely peaked as an elite 2c, pretty good top 6 winger. I don't really see much more growth coming due to his combination of size, speed, and already amazing hockey IQ.

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07-22-2012, 02:17 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
No, he really isn't.


Disagree. Thornton is playing the best all around game of his career and Marleau is still one of the premier goalscorers and skaters in the league.


He's likely peaked as an elite 2c, pretty good top 6 winger. I don't really see much more growth coming due to his combination of size, speed, and already amazing hockey IQ.
^^ This ^^

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07-22-2012, 03:10 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
No, he really isn't.


Disagree. Thornton is playing the best all around game of his career and Marleau is still one of the premier goalscorers and skaters in the league.


He's likely peaked as an elite 2c, pretty good top 6 winger. I don't really see much more growth coming due to his combination of size, speed, and already amazing hockey IQ.
1. Try and support your position with facts. Is your position Winnik is better than Burish? If so support away... but it will be a daunting task.

2. Pavelski had his best season has a top line wing. The whole "elite" second line center really bugs me

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07-23-2012, 03:02 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
2. Pavelski had his best season has a top line wing. The whole "elite" second line center really bugs me
In short "elite 2nd liner" means, to me, able to anchor a very good 2nd line, but not good enough to anchor a successful 1st line. He can be a part of a successful 1st line if he's surrounded by a player who can anchor a line by himself. As the best player on the 1st line I think he'd have problems. Similar to a 2nd/3rd line tweener.

I guess I should amend it to be elite 2nd liner, complementary 1st liner.

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07-23-2012, 03:29 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
1. Try and support your position with facts. Is your position Winnik is better than Burish? If so support away... but it will be a daunting task.
It's supported by most advanced and traditional stats I've seen. Don't care to post them, someone else can if they want to. Behindthenet.ca has a few good ones. It's so easy to click a couple of times and look at everyone's stats that I just don't feel the need to go out of my way to do so.

This isn't a peer reviewed journal. You can take my opinion or leave it. I made a statement, and if you want to disprove it, great. If you can show me the stats say otherwise I'm more than willing to change positions.

I like Burish's game and what he'll bring, but I like Winnik's more for a 3rd liner.

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07-23-2012, 04:22 AM
  #231
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He has a NMC. No minors.

Tmac is notorious for playing a vet when there is a better option. He won't sit the bench all year, simple as that. I hope he does retire, but hasn't been a single indication of that yet.
Zeus has been a stand up hard working player his whole career. He had one crappy year adjusting to a new team and ill defined role right after losing one of his best friends. I fully expect him to be solid once again this year.

Yes I am the eternal optimist with most of our crap shoots (Sheperd). I just think that if these guys have history to back them up they will most likely get back to being productive.

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07-23-2012, 04:25 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
It's supported by most advanced and traditional stats I've seen. Don't care to post them, someone else can if they want to. Behindthenet.ca has a few good ones. It's so easy to click a couple of times and look at everyone's stats that I just don't feel the need to go out of my way to do so.

This isn't a peer reviewed journal. You can take my opinion or leave it. I made a statement, and if you want to disprove it, great. If you can show me the stats say otherwise I'm more than willing to change positions.

I like Burish's game and what he'll bring, but I like Winnik's more for a 3rd liner.
If I have to chose between Winnick and Burish I take the guy with a more balanced game who likes the physical side. Winnick didn't seem that physical to me and from what other have posted about the stats I think you are wrong about winnick being better. Burish played a lot of good minutes when healthy. But that's the key, can he stay healthy.

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07-23-2012, 02:45 PM
  #233
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Winnik is the better on ice player but Burrish has more intangibles. The Sharks could have really used Winnik on the 3rd line for a full season. He's got good size, is strong on the puck, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple 15 goal seasons from him over the next few years. That said, i think Burrish's character and energy are more needed by the Sharks than Winnik's slightly better overall game. I'm still a tad surprised a better team than the Ducks didn't offer Winnik $2M. Hopefully we see continued improvement from Wingels, Desi, and a bounce back year from Galiardi.

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07-23-2012, 03:14 PM
  #234
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Winnik and Burish would both be 4th liners on an actual contender.

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07-23-2012, 04:52 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
Zeus has been a stand up hard working player his whole career. He had one crappy year adjusting to a new team and ill defined role right after losing one of his best friends. I fully expect him to be solid once again this year.

Yes I am the eternal optimist with most of our crap shoots (Sheperd). I just think that if these guys have history to back them up they will most likely get back to being productive.
Honestly, I think that's a more fun way to enjoy the season. Good on you.

Nothing fans can really do affects actual decisions made anyway, why not enjoy the ride a bit more?

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07-23-2012, 05:03 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Franchise13 View Post
Honestly, I think that's a more fun way to enjoy the season. Good on you.

Nothing fans can really do affects actual decisions made anyway, why not enjoy the ride a bit more?
Because its more fun to ***** and whine about the Sharks not signing a bottom six forward.

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07-23-2012, 05:31 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Franchise13 View Post
Honestly, I think that's a more fun way to enjoy the season. Good on you.

Nothing fans can really do affects actual decisions made anyway, why not enjoy the ride a bit more?
I remember after the Ducks debacle, I looked at the amount of time and emotion I had invested in the team and thought, **** this, I got better **** to do than spend all day debating stats, talking about the team, thinking of trade proposals, studying the prospect, etc. It's made watching hockey so much more enjoyable for me now that I am just watching the games and enjoying the 2-3 hours of ENTERTAINMENT.

I still read quite a bit, but no where close to where I used to be. I think it's funny(and sad) to see how much we can let sports run our lives. End of the day, we're just fans and nothing that happens on the ice or with the team really affects us unless we are paid by the team, but I have a feeling that anyone in that situation wouldn't likely be on here much, if at all.

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07-23-2012, 05:48 PM
  #238
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It's perfectly natural to want to be a part of something you feel so passionately about. It's even healthy in a way. Some people like learning about prospects, because it's fun. Some like playing armchair for similar reasons and so on and so forth. The fun part can't stop though, once it does, it's time to reevaluate.

In the NFL's rookie symposium camps and packets given from teams players are strongly recommended to avoid sites such as this. I'd imagine hockey does the same? Though I know for a fact a few Sharks do visit this place, mainly to laugh at it lol...

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07-23-2012, 05:53 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by 68 Z-28 View Post
I remember after the Ducks debacle, I looked at the amount of time and emotion I had invested in the team and thought, **** this, I got better **** to do than spend all day debating stats, talking about the team, thinking of trade proposals, studying the prospect, etc. It's made watching hockey so much more enjoyable for me now that I am just watching the games and enjoying the 2-3 hours of ENTERTAINMENT.

I still read quite a bit, but no where close to where I used to be. I think it's funny(and sad) to see how much we can let sports run our lives. End of the day, we're just fans and nothing that happens on the ice or with the team really affects us unless we are paid by the team, but I have a feeling that anyone in that situation wouldn't likely be on here much, if at all.
Exactly. Good point.

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07-23-2012, 06:03 PM
  #240
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Post edited because I HATE when threads get going off topic and will keep my thoughts on this subject for the appropriate time/place.


Last edited by 68 Z-28: 07-23-2012 at 06:16 PM.
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07-23-2012, 07:45 PM
  #241
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Too bad he couldn't re-sign with the Sharks at that price. Oh well.

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07-23-2012, 08:07 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by SJSharks42 View Post
Winnik and Burish would both be 4th liners on an actual contender.
Agreed. I will say Winnik is better though.

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07-23-2012, 09:04 PM
  #243
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Just noticed, this is the second year in a row the Sharks choose not to re-sign a very good third liner who came in the middle of the year. This year it was Winnik, last year it was Wellwood. Why is DW's strategy here?

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07-23-2012, 11:08 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by JayP812 View Post
Just noticed, this is the second year in a row the Sharks choose not to re-sign a very good third liner who came in the middle of the year. This year it was Winnik, last year it was Wellwood. Why is DW's strategy here?

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07-23-2012, 11:41 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
It's supported by most advanced and traditional stats I've seen. Don't care to post them, someone else can if they want to. Behindthenet.ca has a few good ones. It's so easy to click a couple of times and look at everyone's stats that I just don't feel the need to go out of my way to do so.

This isn't a peer reviewed journal. You can take my opinion or leave it. I made a statement, and if you want to disprove it, great. If you can show me the stats say otherwise I'm more than willing to change positions.

I like Burish's game and what he'll bring, but I like Winnik's more for a 3rd liner.
Yeah ok we all know about Behind the net. What is it that Winnik does better than Burish?

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07-24-2012, 01:52 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by JayP812 View Post
Just noticed, this is the second year in a row the Sharks choose not to re-sign a very good third liner who came in the middle of the year. This year it was Winnik, last year it was Wellwood. Why is DW's strategy here?
I try not to use hindsight, because then you end up with charts stating how if the Sharks had drafted so-and-so and such position, they'd have a powerhouse with superstars on every line, and of course, they'd sign them all to great deal because they were homegrown.

As it happened, Wilson replaced Wellwood with Handzus, and many fans were very happy with that swap. Coming off of a series defeat where our third-line showed it was weak against tough minutes and physical play, and coming off of three series where a team's "shutdown line" was very effective, fans strongly felt that DW should try and get a premier shutdown line, even at the expense of a third scoring line.

Handzus was seen as someone who was far superior defensively and better at handling physical, grinding games.

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07-24-2012, 01:53 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by JayP812 View Post
Just noticed, this is the second year in a row the Sharks choose not to re-sign a very good third liner who came in the middle of the year. This year it was Winnik, last year it was Wellwood. Why is DW's strategy here?
DW feels threatend by other people whose names start with "W"..? I dunno man that's all I got... ;P I for sure would have signed Wellwood. definition of tweener.

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07-24-2012, 01:56 AM
  #248
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As it happened, Wilson replaced Wellwood with Handzus, and many fans were very happy with that swap. Coming off of a series defeat where our third-line showed it was weak against tough minutes and physical play, and coming off of three series where a team's "shutdown line" was very effective, fans strongly felt that DW should try and get a premier shutdown line, even at the expense of a third scoring line.

Handzus was seen as someone who was far superior defensively and better at handling physical, grinding games.
I shall take this opportunity to gloat: I was Wellwood's staunchest supporter throughout the entire summer and I wailed incessantly at the Handzus signing.

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07-24-2012, 01:15 PM
  #249
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I shall take this opportunity to gloat: I was Wellwood's staunchest supporter throughout the entire summer and I wailed incessantly at the Handzus signing.
I get a half gloat. I was solidly on the fence regards Handzus and I absolutely did not think that he would improve the PK by himself. The numbers said that he was at best an average PKer.

I did think that they should have kept Wellwood. I think the analysis of the failure against the Nucks was poor. They needed a third liner like Chimera as opposed to Mitchell. Every opponent in the playoffs presents matchup issues and fans really need to understand how the depth and coaching has to come through to find one part of the lineup that can dominate a particular opponent and excuse the rest in what amounts to small samples for each series. There really aren't any Lemieux's or Gretzky's out there who can dominate every matchup. I think it was a combination of issues against the Nucks. Injuries, exit/entry plays and speed of defense. Other than my presented third line fix, I would not have had Wallin. I would instead have had a Seidenberg, Michalek, Martin type on the blueline to push down Vlasic and push out Wallin. The seeds of the thought that went into that were there before the results were in. And you certainly don't lay the bulk of the fault at the feet of those who are most easily moved, that is a cop out.

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07-24-2012, 02:28 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Yeah ok we all know about Behind the net. What is it that Winnik does better than Burish?
winnik g:8 a:15 Pt:23 +/-:-11 S%:4.3

hits:95 GvA:24 TkA:55 FO%: 55 on 66 f/o's

burish g:6 a:13 pt:19 +/-:+6 S%:7.3

hits: 69 GvA:13 TkA:17 FO%:55.8 on 389

CAVEAT: burish played 65 games to winniks 84.

both are 4th liners. burish gives us an extra faceoff dimension + the intangibles (wants to be here, energy guy, fighter). winnik has a higher possession upside, he will affect his line more positively on both offense and defense in the long run.

one thing i will point much heavier in burish favor is the defensive zone starts. he started 57% in the d zone, and finished 49% in the d zone. so more often than not he was driving the puck forward at a high rate.

winnik did face slightly tougher competition, but its not like he was going against top quality night in night out, so its hard to really weight this in either players favor.

in the end, give burish 20 extra games, and some of those other numbers likely regress together, and burish comes out on top just for the extra dimensions he provides on the ice. he also plays about 4 minutes less a game.

i will add for the sake of argument, last season was a lot worse for burish, where for winnik it just showed more consistency.

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