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Rick Nash - Frenzy.... thy name. Part 183

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07-05-2012, 07:07 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by eclipse2411 View Post
I'm speculating production with the changed environments. Nash playing with just one of Richards/Gaborik and probably even Callahan will land him 40 assists. He's never had that type or even close to it in CBJ and look at the assists he gets. If you look at what he does for Team Canada, it's more per game and that's because of the talent he plays with. And going to NYR, you have tons a talent around him.

Dubi wouldn't consistantly get 40+ points on a CBJ roster was what I was meaning. CBJ talent just isn't there yet. And you need talent in order to help score goals and get assists.
Dubinsky led our team in scoring the year before last. He doesn't need much talent to perform. He arguably works better with grinding style guys anyway.


We're not going assume Nash is going to get 40+ assists in NY, let alone be a lock for it because of a change of scenery. We play a defensive style that deflates numbers. Your entire premise relies upon Nash reaching career highs in NY and Dubinsky reaching career lows in Columbus.

Callahan is a better Dubinsky. Playing him with Nash is incredibly dumb. He doesn't work well with skill players. He didn't work with Richards or Stepan. He works well with players like Dubinsky.

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07-05-2012, 07:11 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by RyanCallahan24 View Post
you lost everyone in here except for the trolls at that segment of your comment....


Dubinsky is all the sudden a 30 point player? He has progressed for 4 straight years.

Here's a link http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11024


Show me where Dubinsky is a 30 point average player? This was his 1st time he didn't reach +40 points. He had 1 off year. Nash has had 3 straight ones. Obviously Nash is the better player.


I'd say he's a 40-45 point player. 'Cause if Dubinsky after 1 bad year is a 30 point player even though every ''evidence'' points out that that's not correct I guess Nash is a 55 point player (averaging down like you did on Dubinsky's # this season).


Your whole post makes me wanna do this all night long.


Let's summerise it.


In his first 4 years (4 seasons that is) Brandon Dubinsky has scored +40 points 4times. And he scored 34 points this season (his 5th year), which is obviously an off year by 6-10 points.

In his first 4 seasons he has progressed, putting up better numbers each season. In the last 3rd and 4th season he scored +20 goals.


So how is he a 30 point player when his lowest season was 34 points scored and EVERY other year has been +40 points scored.

Makes no sense at all...
If you think that Dubi is a 40 point player on CBJ and Nash isn't a 70 point player (10 more points playing with....) on NYR.

You are trying to say Dubi's production will go up playing with less talent. No.

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07-05-2012, 07:11 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by eclipse2411 View Post
All of the media here in Columbus are laughing due to the incredible stance that Kreider is untouchable in a deal for Nash.
Straight up?

Maybe.

With Nash's contract, I'm not sure who would get the better of that one.

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07-05-2012, 07:12 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by eclipse2411 View Post
I'm speculating production with the changed environments. Nash playing with just one of Richards/Gaborik and probably even Callahan will land him 40 assists. He's never had that type or even close to it in CBJ and look at the assists he gets. If you look at what he does for Team Canada, it's more per game and that's because of the talent he plays with. And going to NYR, you have tons a talent around him.

Dubi wouldn't consistantly get 40+ points on a CBJ roster was what I was meaning. CBJ talent just isn't there yet. And you need talent in order to help score goals and get assists.
Yeah because like playing for Canada is like playing for the Rangers. I mean screw the caphit, screw Crosby, Thornton, Iginla, Weber, Keith and so on.

Nvm that half the time the teams are Norway, Germany, Denmark and so on. With all due respect to those countries they're scrubs compared to NHL teams.


Nash won't have 4 stacked lines. Nash will not play against bad teams like that. Nash won't have players like Crosby, Thornton, Keith, Weber and so on.

Comparing International games like that are stupid. I guess that Per-Åge Skröder or Patric Thoresen are locks for the NHL then. Thoresen would be a 1st liner in NHL if you based your players on stats from International games...

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07-05-2012, 07:13 PM
  #905
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That's why how many gm's said they wouldn't trade Kreider for Nash straight up?

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07-05-2012, 07:13 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by janecky View Post
Some people still don't seem to understand Columbus needs to get some guaranteed NHL value in return, not just potentials who could turn into good 3rd liners in three years.

The Dubinsky package consisted of spare parts the Rangers could sacrifice. Let's be honest here. That package did not include even one player or prospect whose loss would have really stung the organization. It had everything Sather could find that had some value but wouldn't hurt to give up in a trade for Rick Nash.
No one's going to give up a someone essential to the team for Nash. The idea is to add Nash to the team, not replace someone with Nash unless that player is a spare part.

This is why star players are generally traded for spare parts and why they almost never work out for the team that gives up the star player.

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07-05-2012, 07:14 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
No one's going to give up a someone essential to the team for Nash. The idea is to add Nash to the team, not replace someone with Nash unless that player is a spare part.

This is why star players are generally traded for spare parts and why they almost never work out for the team that gives up the star player.
Exactly. Why create more holes just to fill one?

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07-05-2012, 07:15 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
Dubinsky led our team in scoring the year before last. He doesn't need much talent to perform. He arguably works better with grinding style guys anyway.


We're not going assume Nash is going to get 40+ assists in NY, let alone be a lock for it because of a change of scenery. We play a defensive style that deflates numbers. Your entire premise relies upon Nash reaching career highs in NY and Dubinsky reaching career lows in Columbus.

Callahan is a better Dubinsky. Playing him with Nash is incredibly dumb. He doesn't work well with skill players. He didn't work with Richards or Stepan. He works well with players like Dubinsky.
I can believe you on that...but I just don't see how a logical person wouldn't think getting less than 10 more points a year playing in NYR..

Nash is considered a power forward by the way. Not a sniper like most seem to think..

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07-05-2012, 07:15 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by eclipse2411 View Post
If you think that Dubi is a 40 point player on CBJ and Nash isn't a 70 point player (10 more points playing with....) on NYR.

You are trying to say Dubi's production will go up playing with less talent. No.
Dubinsky's decline in points is due to having a less important role on the Rangers. If you honestly think Dubinsky would only get 30 points on Columbus you're out to lunch, he'd get closer to 50 on the Blue Jackets. He'd be 1st/2nd line. He was on 3rd line in NY with little to no PP time, thats why he didn't get as many points.

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07-05-2012, 07:16 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by RyanCallahan24 View Post
Yeah because like playing for Canada is like playing for the Rangers. I mean screw the caphit, screw Crosby, Thornton, Iginla, Weber, Keith and so on.

Nvm that half the time the teams are Norway, Germany, Denmark and so on. With all due respect to those countries they're scrubs compared to NHL teams.


Nash won't have 4 stacked lines. Nash will not play against bad teams like that. Nash won't have players like Crosby, Thornton, Keith, Weber and so on.

Comparing International games like that are stupid. I guess that Per-Åge Skröder or Patric Thoresen are locks for the NHL then. Thoresen would be a 1st liner in NHL if you based your players on stats from International games...
lol - my point is that playing with better talent helps..

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07-05-2012, 07:16 PM
  #911
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That's why how many gm's said they wouldn't trade Kreider for Nash straight up?
link?

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07-05-2012, 07:19 PM
  #912
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I was watching tsn, they were talking about some of the nba signings and trades, and than brought up the NHL and Nash and where he will end up. One said that SJ will make a pitch for him, and said they would deal Marleau to the Leafs to make room for him.

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07-05-2012, 07:20 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by eclipse2411 View Post
If you think that Dubi is a 40 point player on CBJ and Nash isn't a 70 point player (10 more points playing with....) on NYR.

You are trying to say Dubi's production will go up playing with less talent. No.
yeah cause we did always have elite talent to play with Dubinsky. He used to put up +40 points with Callahan as his RW and Anisimov as the C.


Anisimov ain't that great. Johansen > Anisimov. Callahan > The fwd's on your roster (except Nash I guess...).

So let's say. Dubinsky + Johansen/Brassard + ? should get you 40 points or more from Dubinsky.

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07-05-2012, 07:22 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by eclipse2411 View Post
link?

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/06/...ency-and-more/

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It has been said that some GMs wouldn’t even trade Nash for Kreider straight up right now

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07-05-2012, 07:22 PM
  #915
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Ah, I see I was wrong. You were intentionally missing the point. Do you and Cash for Nash perchance share the same IP address?
I'm actually trying to make a point. Just like you wouldn't trade anyone on your top line with Derek Dorsett as the centerpiece coming back, the Jackets shouldn't give up a top line player with the best asset in the return being a second/third line tweener. That's not a recipe to get better.

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07-05-2012, 07:23 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by RyanCallahan24 View Post
yeah cause we did always have elite talent to play with Dubinsky. He used to put up +40 points with Callahan as his RW and Anisimov as the C.


Anisimov ain't that great. Johansen > Anisimov. Callahan > The fwd's on your roster (except Nash I guess...).

So let's say. Dubinsky + Johansen/Brassard + ? should get you 40 points or more from Dubinsky.
All speculation - it's just my opinion. I'm glad to hear you say Anisimov isn't that great because I don't think he is either and don't want a Dubi, AA, Miller, 1st for Nash.

Thank you

But like I said earlier, if I were in your shoes and a NYR fan - I wouldn't want to touch this deal. Knowing what it's going to take. I sympathize..

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07-05-2012, 07:23 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by eclipse2411 View Post
I can believe you on that...but I just don't see how a logical person wouldn't think getting less than 10 more points a year playing in NYR..

Nash is considered a power forward by the way. Not a sniper like most seem to think..
Nash is more of an opportunistic scorer than someone who uses his body to score goals. He's about as much a power forward as Joe Thornton.

And us logical folks watch the Rangers and know the system we employ.

Nash would most likely play with Stepan and Kreider, anyway. Not Gaborik and Richards.

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07-05-2012, 07:24 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by RyanCallahan24 View Post
yeah cause we did always have elite talent to play with Dubinsky. He used to put up +40 points with Callahan as his RW and Anisimov as the C.


Anisimov ain't that great. Johansen > Anisimov. Callahan > The fwd's on your roster (except Nash I guess...).

So let's say. Dubinsky + Johansen/Brassard + ? should get you 40 points or more from Dubinsky.
Seriously. In 2010-11, behind Lundqvist, Dubinsky was the teams best player.

I love how Columbus fans judge Dubinsky yet half of them havent even seen him play.

Hey people, when someone plays a more limited role, they don't get as many points.

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07-05-2012, 07:25 PM
  #919
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The GMs that say that are the ones Howson needs to trade with. Ones with no concept of value.

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07-05-2012, 07:26 PM
  #920
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I'm actually trying to make a point. Just like you wouldn't trade anyone on your top line with Derek Dorsett as the centerpiece coming back, the Jackets shouldn't give up a top line player with the best asset in the return being a second/third line tweener. That's not a recipe to get better.
Second/Third line tweener?

He'd be one of your best forwards, and he's obviously not the center piece, the center piece would be one of the prospects. Proven doesn't mean center piece.

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07-05-2012, 07:26 PM
  #921
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Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
I'm actually trying to make a point. Just like you wouldn't trade anyone on your top line with Derek Dorsett as the centerpiece coming back, the Jackets shouldn't give up a top line player with the best asset in the return being a second/third line tweener. That's not a recipe to get better.
hahaha it's not that hard to see...but on the other end it seems to be...

Callahan for Letestu, Calvert, Savard and a 1st is basically the same kind of deal that has been offered on here or Nash..An NHL player with 2 prospects and a 1st. Laughable.

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07-05-2012, 07:27 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
I'm actually trying to make a point. Just like you wouldn't trade anyone on your top line with Derek Dorsett as the centerpiece coming back, the Jackets shouldn't give up a top line player with the best asset in the return being a second/third line tweener. That's not a recipe to get better.
Did you just compare Dubinsky to Dorsett?

If so, you should realize that Dorsett being considered a "second/third line tweener" is one of the reasons the Jackets aren't a good team. On a good team he'd be on the fourth line. He just scored 20 points as a 25 year old. I highly doubt he'll ever eclipse his age in point total for a season.

Dubinsky is a much, much better player than Derek Dorsett.

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07-05-2012, 07:27 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by eclipse2411 View Post
link?
Ken Campbell wrote a free agent/trade preview for THN a few weeks ago. He quoted someone(identified him as "one observer")who said "several NHL GMs wouldn't trade Kreider straight up for Nash".

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07-05-2012, 07:27 PM
  #924
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ditto back to Sather

Look, if I were the NYR, I don't think I would want to be in on this trade disussion to begin with. BUT you are. And obviously Sather thinks it's needed. That should speak volumes to the fans. To those that for EVERY single player on the roster, their's high praise, excuses and dubbing those who have yet to prove anything, superstars.

With Nash you are guaranteed 30 goals, 40 assists. CBJ know this and dealing for a 30 point player on a CBJ roster in Dubi as the center piece in any deal is laughable. Not to mention HIS cap for his production as well. I like how Nash's contract gets crapped on but you don't realize how bad Dubi's contract is either.

All of the media here in Columbus are laughing due to the incredible stance that Kreider is untouchable in a deal for Nash.

With all of that and all NYR wanting to include is Miller and Thomas who are at BEST B grade potential, will only hurt the CBJ to make this deal. If those prospects are such a sure thing, you would think you would want to keep them.

You are not going to keep this "core" in getting Nash - this isn't fantasy land. Dubi, a 3rd line player that can play 2nd line here and there shouldn't be the main piece coming back. If you didn't need to clear cap room, Dubi wouldn't be wanted or a part of the deal.

Quit thinking Dubi and guys who haven't played in the NHL (who aren't regarded as top tier prospects) are going to land you 70+ points and a player like Nash.
Then go make the lousy deal with another team but nothing has happened with other teams. That's what the Rangers have to give up. Go make the deal with another team if you don't like the Ranger package. Its a free country.

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07-05-2012, 07:27 PM
  #925
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixon's Lunchbox View Post
Second/Third line tweener?

He'd be one of your best forwards, and he's obviously not the center piece, the center piece would be one of the prospects. Proven doesn't mean center piece.
So Kreider is OK? That would be a center piece, I agree...Miller, is not.

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