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Old
05-30-2013, 09:03 PM
  #151
jigsaw99
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You can argue Ballard was a mistake by forget Grabner as part of that. He wasn't playing that well. When even Grabner himself admits he deserved being waived ... Even after being waived he did not do much. His first 37 games that year were pretty weak for a 23yo 1 dimensional scorer

4 points in his first 15 games

5 points in 4 games though, Promising??

Just 3 points in next 18 games.

That would have got him waived by a decent team even if he was not traded. NYI was the right spot for him, a garbage team that was going no where and so could afford to keep him around.

Sadly for the Canucks he bloomed 1 year too late. I'm sure they would have loved an extra year before waivers but Grabner would have been sent down. Maybe if AV didn't love his 4th line grinders so much, but whatever he not ready. It happens, move on.
well what do people expect from a rookie in Grabner?...

11 points in 20 games as a rookie 21 year old isn't bad. Keep in mind that AV had Grabner playing like 5-10 min in some games.

AV's just too impatient with them and expect them to be point a game players right off the bad and make zero defensive mistakes.

Saad started this season with 5 points in 20 games.

He got 1 point in his first 11 games.


Last edited by jigsaw99: 05-30-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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Old
05-30-2013, 10:09 PM
  #152
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well what do people expect from a rookie in Grabner?...

11 points in 20 games as a rookie 21 year old isn't bad. Keep in mind that AV had Grabner playing like 5-10 min in some games.

AV's just too impatient with them and expect them to be point a game players right off the bad and make zero defensive mistakes.

Saad started this season with 5 points in 20 games.

He got 1 point in his first 11 games.
Grabner had 1 really good goal scoring season and brings little else to his game.

He isn't gritty and not a play maker.

My guess is that he scores some goals, but never explodes for more than 30 and is never a top 6 player on a team that goes to the 3rd round of the playoffs.

There are guys with intangibles and then on the opposite end of the scale guys like Grabner.

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05-30-2013, 10:10 PM
  #153
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Not puzzling at all, I still don't view Grabner as a loss. He was waivers bound. He's put up goals in an optimal situation, but I don't view him as a steady top6er in the NHL (the average of). The degree of team quality and opportunity weigh into my decision.

Right now, the odds are that Kuznetsov is _not_ coming over, so his value is nil. I don't want to go looking for that article where I saw that WSH tried to deal him with no takers, but it does provide insight as to what his "value" is around the league.
If by optimal you mean a team that was willing to let a 22 y/o rookie play and make the inevitable mistakes that all rookies do without fear of being benched or demoted, then I agree it was pretty optimal. As for whether he was *waivers* bound, I don't know if that is necessarily true though that is certainly how it played out thanks to some poor decisions by Florida. And why is his success in NY any less impressive than if he had done it here? He plays against NHL teams there as well, is in arguably a tougher division than we are, doesn't get to play with stars and, unlike the Dman he was traded for at least can stick in the line up for more than a few games at a time. Oh and the team that is such "a different situation" just won two more playoff games than we did against arguably a much better team than we faced. Weak argument to take away his accomplishments IMO.

Secondly I'm not sure why a former 14th overall pick who progressed steadily through junior then the AHL then showed well in his stint in the 2009-10 season would be destined for waivers. Seems a pretty stupid use of an asset who at the time showed promise and hindsight has proven to be correct. Grabner's 70 goals in his first 3 seasons is as many goals as Alex Burrows has had in his last 3 playing with the Sedins, even though Grabner has had relatively paltry line mates (Frans Nielsen) in comparison. But rather than show a bit of patience and actually develop him properly, MG dumps him for an overpaid Dman who his own coach wouldn't play and then tries to address our lack of scoring on Keslers wing - where Grabner had looked great 2 years before - by acquiring a $4.2M reclamation project in David Booth. Ironically Booth and Ballard are the two players most fans are screaming for to be bought out so that we can get under the cap and *gasp* sign a pricey UFA to address our lack of scoring.

But ya you're right, there's no way Grabner could possibly be of any value to this team ...


Last edited by CanaFan: 05-30-2013 at 10:22 PM.
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Old
05-30-2013, 10:36 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Grabner had 1 really good goal scoring season and brings little else to his game.

He isn't gritty and not a play maker.

My guess is that he scores some goals, but never explodes for more than 30 and is never a top 6 player on a team that goes to the 3rd round of the playoffs.

There are guys with intangibles and then on the opposite end of the scale guys like Grabner.
You're describing Mason Raymond not the new Michael Grabner.. He's absolutely gritty and added good muscle to his frame now while maintaining his speed.

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05-30-2013, 10:38 PM
  #155
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You're describing Mason Raymond not the new Michael Grabner.. He's absolutely gritty and added good muscle to his frame now while maintaining his speed.
not really

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05-30-2013, 11:24 PM
  #156
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Grabner had 1 really good goal scoring season and brings little else to his game.

He isn't gritty and not a play maker.

My guess is that he scores some goals, but never explodes for more than 30 and is never a top 6 player on a team that goes to the 3rd round of the playoffs.

There are guys with intangibles and then on the opposite end of the scale guys like Grabner.
What a load of crap. 1 really good season? He's only played 3 FFS. He scored 34 in his first (excellent), 20 in his second (average), and 16 in 45 this year which is a 29 goal pace (good). What do you want from the guy, 50 goals a year?

Who cares if he's not gritty or a playmaker? He scores goals and that is what he is in the line-up to do. Is Stamkos a bad player because he's not gritty or a playmaker? He does the exact same thing as Grabner, just a lot better. Nobody seems to think Stamkos needs to be gritty or a playmaker. As long as a guy fills a role - and goal scoring is one of the most valuable in this league - then he's doing his job.

As for the rest, well I could guess that he scores 40 for the next 12 years and it would be just as valid as your guess. Both are equally useless as any form of discussion or evaluation of a player.

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05-31-2013, 12:27 AM
  #157
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What a load of crap. 1 really good season? He's only played 3 FFS. He scored 34 in his first (excellent), 20 in his second (average), and 16 in 45 this year which is a 29 goal pace (good). What do you want from the guy, 50 goals a year?

Who cares if he's not gritty or a playmaker? He scores goals and that is what he is in the line-up to do. Is Stamkos a bad player because he's not gritty or a playmaker? He does the exact same thing as Grabner, just a lot better. Nobody seems to think Stamkos needs to be gritty or a playmaker. As long as a guy fills a role - and goal scoring is one of the most valuable in this league - then he's doing his job.

As for the rest, well I could guess that he scores 40 for the next 12 years and it would be just as valid as your guess. Both are equally useless as any form of discussion or evaluation of a player.
He's also a threat on their PK. I'm a fan of Grabner's.

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05-31-2013, 01:32 AM
  #158
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If by optimal you mean a team that was willing to let a 22 y/o rookie play and make the inevitable mistakes that all rookies do without fear of being benched or demoted, then I agree it was pretty optimal. As for whether he was *waivers* bound, I don't know if that is necessarily true though that is certainly how it played out thanks to some poor decisions by Florida. And why is his success in NY any less impressive than if he had done it here? He plays against NHL teams there as well, is in arguably a tougher division than we are, doesn't get to play with stars and, unlike the Dman he was traded for at least can stick in the line up for more than a few games at a time. Oh and the team that is such "a different situation" just won two more playoff games than we did against arguably a much better team than we faced. Weak argument to take away his accomplishments IMO.

Secondly I'm not sure why a former 14th overall pick who progressed steadily through junior then the AHL then showed well in his stint in the 2009-10 season would be destined for waivers. Seems a pretty stupid use of an asset who at the time showed promise and hindsight has proven to be correct. Grabner's 70 goals in his first 3 seasons is as many goals as Alex Burrows has had in his last 3 playing with the Sedins, even though Grabner has had relatively paltry line mates (Frans Nielsen) in comparison. But rather than show a bit of patience and actually develop him properly, MG dumps him for an overpaid Dman who his own coach wouldn't play and then tries to address our lack of scoring on Keslers wing - where Grabner had looked great 2 years before - by acquiring a $4.2M reclamation project in David Booth. Ironically Booth and Ballard are the two players most fans are screaming for to be bought out so that we can get under the cap and *gasp* sign a pricey UFA to address our lack of scoring.

But ya you're right, there's no way Grabner could possibly be of any value to this team ...


Well, we did in fact witness Grabner on this team... Wasn't pretty... Unless you think the coach didn't utilize him properly? Or coaches, seeing as how DeBoer also gave up on him? As well as both GMs seeing the same thing. Oh, and TOR's assistant GM realizing a bubble player was just that when he let him pass on waivers?

When did Grabner look great here? I can't recall. In fact, the speculation at the time was that he was all but assured to hit waivers, due to a roster crunch.

So your argument for leveling off NYI to VAN is this year's performance? You want to talk about weak arguments, this one takes the cake as it dismisses the larger sample for the more recent shorter sample, which should make that assessment more prone to error. He has one full season at a .5PPG. I view him as no different than Raymond overall, and people want to rid themselves of MR post-haste.

His goal scoring is good overall, but he's such an oddity of a player in his cy young type style that I'm sure better teams would have let him go by the wayside before investing in his development, and they did. NYI was a cellar dweller when they picked him up off waivers. He himself admitted that it was that realization that kick-started his drive/career... Which doesn't speak well to his mental make-up IMO. He floated through things until that point. Call it giving up on him too soon or whatever, part of that is on the player too.

I still maintain that his time would have been short here regardless, and I don't view him as a significant loss in any sense. Good luck to him though. He found a home in a situation that caters to his style.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 05-31-2013 at 01:37 AM.
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Old
05-31-2013, 08:35 AM
  #159
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What a load of crap. 1 really good season? He's only played 3 FFS. He scored 34 in his first (excellent), 20 in his second (average), and 16 in 45 this year which is a 29 goal pace (good). What do you want from the guy, 50 goals a year?

Who cares if he's not gritty or a playmaker? He scores goals and that is what he is in the line-up to do. Is Stamkos a bad player because he's not gritty or a playmaker? He does the exact same thing as Grabner, just a lot better. Nobody seems to think Stamkos needs to be gritty or a playmaker. As long as a guy fills a role - and goal scoring is one of the most valuable in this league - then he's doing his job.

As for the rest, well I could guess that he scores 40 for the next 12 years and it would be just as valid as your guess. Both are equally useless as any form of discussion or evaluation of a player.
Grabner is really too one dimensional of a player to ahve on a really good winning team.

Sure he had 16 goals this year but only 5 freaking assists.

Last year it was 20-12, his peak year 34-18.

Does that sound like a well rounded player or even a well rounded offensive player to you?

Sorry in goal scoring pools he has some value in terms of real hockey there is a reason both Florida and the Canucks passed him up and now he is a top 6 player on that consistent NHL SC contender the NYI.

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05-31-2013, 09:57 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Grabner is really too one dimensional of a player to ahve on a really good winning team.

Sure he had 16 goals this year but only 5 freaking assists.

Last year it was 20-12, his peak year 34-18.

Does that sound like a well rounded player or even a well rounded offensive player to you?

Sorry in goal scoring pools he has some value in terms of real hockey there is a reason both Florida and the Canucks passed him up and now he is a top 6 player on that consistent NHL SC contender the NYI.
they did win two more playoff games than us this year, against a better team

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05-31-2013, 03:17 PM
  #161
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Well, we did in fact witness Grabner on this team... Wasn't pretty... Unless you think the coach didn't utilize him properly? Or coaches, seeing as how DeBoer also gave up on him? As well as both GMs seeing the same thing. Oh, and TOR's assistant GM realizing a bubble player was just that when he let him pass on waivers?

When did Grabner look great here? I can't recall. In fact, the speculation at the time was that he was all but assured to hit waivers, due to a roster crunch.
I watched him frequently his rookie season here and he looked dangerous on nearly every night. Snake bitten for sure in terms of scoring, but he generated chances on a nightly basis. Certainly showed plenty of potential to become a prolific goal scorer one day. Which he has become. As the GM of Vancouver, Gillis should have had a better insight into that than the other 29 GMs around the league, including TOR's assistant GM, who I would assume didn't make it a high priority to inquire about a player about to be put on waivers. Did it make sense at the time to them? Evidence would suggest that was the case. Considering he has developed into a 20-30 goal scorer since suggests it was a mistake.


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So your argument for leveling off NYI to VAN is this year's performance? You want to talk about weak arguments, this one takes the cake as it dismisses the larger sample for the more recent shorter sample, which should make that assessment more prone to error. He has one full season at a .5PPG. I view him as no different than Raymond overall, and people want to rid themselves of MR post-haste.
What is your argument exactly? Why is he able to score 34 goals in NYI and not here, besides the obvious fact that AV doesn't like to play rookies? What is his advantage of playing on NYI's second line with Frans Neilsen against Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, NJ, and NYR instead of on Vancouver's second line with Ryan Kesler against Edmonton, Calgary, Minnesota, and Colorado? Other than the teams inherent willingness to take a _leap of faith_ on a young player, what is the big difference? Is it that he is too soft? Can't play defense? Bad attitude? Well if all those things are true, then why was he still in NYI's top 6 when they made the playoffs and took Pittsburgh to 6 games? If he is such a bad player than he can only play on a bottom feeding team - whatever reason that would even be - then why didn't they cast him off as soon as they became competitive this year? Or better question: How could a team like NYI even become competitive with such a terrible, one-dimensional player in their top-6?

If you can answer that without allowing that Grabner might (gasp) actually be a good and useful player, rather than a terrible player who can only play on a bad team, then perhaps I'll come around to your point. At the moment however you've shown nothing other than a personal opinion.



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His goal scoring is good overall, but he's such an oddity of a player in his cy young type style that I'm sure better teams would have let him go by the wayside before investing in his development, and they did. NYI was a cellar dweller when they picked him up off waivers. He himself admitted that it was that realization that kick-started his drive/career... Which doesn't speak well to his mental make-up IMO. He floated through things until that point. Call it giving up on him too soon or whatever, part of that is on the player too.
I'll concede that maybe he needed that kick-start, or maybe he would have shown it here too if we had a coach who cared a bit less about squeezing every possible point out of the regular season and a bit more about developing players on a team so that when the playoffs roll around you actually have a team that isn't gassed, injured, or so set playing specialized roles that they can't adapt.

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I still maintain that his time would have been short here regardless, and I don't view him as a significant loss in any sense. Good luck to him though. He found a home in a situation that caters to his style.
Clearly that is your viewpoint, and while I disagree 100% you are entitled to it.


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Old
05-31-2013, 03:20 PM
  #162
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Grabner is really too one dimensional of a player to ahve on a really good winning team.

Sure he had 16 goals this year but only 5 freaking assists.

Last year it was 20-12, his peak year 34-18.

Does that sound like a well rounded player or even a well rounded offensive player to you?

Sorry in goal scoring pools he has some value in terms of real hockey there is a reason both Florida and the Canucks passed him up and now he is a top 6 player on that consistent NHL SC contender the NYI.

Grabner's goals-to-assists ratio is less pronounced than Henrik Sedin's assists-to-goals ratio. So if your argument is that specializing in one ability over another - be it scoring goals or setting up goals - is inherently bad, then please let Hank know so he can return his Hart trophy to the league office ...

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05-31-2013, 03:35 PM
  #163
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Grabner's goals-to-assists ratio is less pronounced than Henrik Sedin's assists-to-goals ratio. So if your argument is that specializing in one ability over another - be it scoring goals or setting up goals - is inherently bad, then please let Hank know so he can return his Hart trophy to the league office ...
Total matters more than either. We are letting Raymond walk and he is just as productive and better defensively.

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05-31-2013, 04:12 PM
  #164
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Total matters more than either. We are letting Raymond walk and he is just as productive and better defensively.

That is a blanket statement and doesn't apply equally to all players. Watch Grabner play and see how much he creates on his own with his speed. Admittedly he looks to shoot more than pass and that reflects in his totals, but he *earns* his goals. Watch Raymond and he more often than not picks up points on secondary assists or plays that others have created. So no, Raymond and Grabner aren't equally productive. Go ask NYI fans if they would want to see Grabner walk at the end of the season like Canuck fans want Raymond to go. That should tell you all you need to know ...

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06-01-2013, 04:24 PM
  #165
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I watched him frequently his rookie season here and he looked dangerous on nearly every night. Snake bitten for sure in terms of scoring, but he generated chances on a nightly basis. Certainly showed plenty of potential to become a prolific goal scorer one day. Which he has become. As the GM of Vancouver, Gillis should have had a better insight into that than the other 29 GMs around the league, including TOR's assistant GM, who I would assume didn't make it a high priority to inquire about a player about to be put on waivers. Did it make sense at the time to them? Evidence would suggest that was the case. Considering he has developed into a 20-30 goal scorer since suggests it was a mistake.




What is your argument exactly? Why is he able to score 34 goals in NYI and not here, besides the obvious fact that AV doesn't like to play rookies? What is his advantage of playing on NYI's second line with Frans Neilsen against Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, NJ, and NYR instead of on Vancouver's second line with Ryan Kesler against Edmonton, Calgary, Minnesota, and Colorado? Other than the teams inherent willingness to take a _leap of faith_ on a young player, what is the big difference? Is it that he is too soft? Can't play defense? Bad attitude? Well if all those things are true, then why was he still in NYI's top 6 when they made the playoffs and took Pittsburgh to 6 games? If he is such a bad player than he can only play on a bottom feeding team - whatever reason that would even be - then why didn't they cast him off as soon as they became competitive this year? Or better question: How could a team like NYI even become competitive with such a terrible, one-dimensional player in their top-6?

If you can answer that without allowing that Grabner might (gasp) actually be a good and useful player, rather than a terrible player who can only play on a bad team, then perhaps I'll come around to your point. At the moment however you've shown nothing other than a personal opinion.





I'll concede that maybe he needed that kick-start, or maybe he would have shown it here too if we had a coach who cared a bit less about squeezing every possible point out of the regular season and a bit more about developing players on a team so that when the playoffs roll around you actually have a team that isn't gassed, injured, or so set playing specialized roles that they can't adapt.



Clearly that is your viewpoint, and while I disagree 100% you are entitled to it.
Grabner was able to score those goals on the 2010-11 NYI and wouldn't have been able to here because the context was entirely different, and the Islanders had the luxury of taking that leap of faith that you described because they were ****ing awful and nobody gave a **** about them anyway.

Grabner was waiver eligible. He wasn't going to jump into a spot in the top-6, he didn't yet have the tools to play elsewhere in the Canucks' lineup (Unless you're suggesting that they should have played him on the 3rd line with Manny Malhotra), and a contending team doesn't have the luxury of sitting around and hoping that some guy that looks like a mid-level prospect can learn on the fly enough to hopefully turn into a real contributor to a cup run down the road.

The Islanders were in a position where they could keep giving a rookie 10-16+ min/game over a stretch of the season where he wasn't contributing. That doesn't happen on a team that's aiming for a larger goal than "getting better some day."

Whatever he has become, it wasn't likely to happen in Vancouver, and it was able to happen on Long Island because of the extremely different situations. That happens. To act like he was some kind of can't miss guy that the Canucks just pissed away because AV is a meanie or whatever is the worst kind of disingenuous hindsight reasoning. He was a player that needed to be in a situation where he could learn on the fly without the pressures, higher stakes, and heightened competition that come with being on a winning team with winning expectations. He ended up in that situation, and was able to grow because of it.

Also, TOR's assistant GM was the guy that initially drafted Grabner as a bit of a reach.

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06-02-2013, 10:05 PM
  #166
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Grabner had 1 really good goal scoring season and brings little else to his game.

He isn't gritty and not a play maker.

My guess is that he scores some goals, but never explodes for more than 30 and is never a top 6 player on a team that goes to the 3rd round of the playoffs.

There are guys with intangibles and then on the opposite end of the scale guys like Grabner.
Grabner is a solid PK'er. Sounds like you're merely looking at his stats and making judgements from when you watched him in Vancouver. Watch some Isles games.

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06-02-2013, 11:29 PM
  #167
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The difference between Mason Raymond and Michael Grabner is not "gritty vs non-gritty" or "consistent vs non-consistent", it's "good vs not good". Grabner plays on a checking/shutdown line and provides inconsistent offense. Raymond has to play sheltered minutes and provides inconsistent offense. THAT'S the difference.

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06-03-2013, 08:58 PM
  #168
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Rick Bowness hired by Tampa

Well that didn't take very long, CBC is saying that the Lightning have hired Bowness to be an assistant coach. Probably a good call by them as Bowness has been around a long time and has been a head coach in the NHL before, while their new coach has not. Also Tampa has a history with Vancouver old Canucks defencemen, why not hire our old defence coach?

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06-03-2013, 09:01 PM
  #169
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rip tampa

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06-03-2013, 09:02 PM
  #170
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Good luck to him, but I fail to see how he's going to be any as successful with much worse personnel.

If the stories of the complexity of the 'system' are true, can TB really afford a long transition period after missing the playoffs?

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06-03-2013, 09:03 PM
  #171
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Stamkos better become a 100 goal scorer if they are gonna outscore their opponents now.

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06-03-2013, 09:06 PM
  #172
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poor tampa

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06-03-2013, 09:53 PM
  #173
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Gratz Bones

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06-03-2013, 09:56 PM
  #174
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Poor Tampa

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06-03-2013, 10:00 PM
  #175
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Posts: 8,015
vCash: 500
Ricky's gonna get exposed for what he truly is with Tampa's backend/goaltending.

He's either really up for a new and massive challenge or he's having another floor added to his summer home and didn't want to be out of work too long.

Eddy Punch Clock is offline  
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