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7 Game Series 84 Oilers or 02 Wings (All Players in Prime)

View Poll Results: Who Wins?
Oilers in 4 20 8.40%
Wings in 4 10 4.20%
Oilers in 5 43 18.07%
Wings in 5 31 13.03%
Oilers in 6 35 14.71%
Wings in 6 58 24.37%
Oilers in 7 9 3.78%
Wings in 7 32 13.45%
Voters: 238. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-06-2012, 11:26 AM
  #76
Sentinel
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Lacaar: are you really calling The Grind Line, Shanahan, Holmstrom, Hull, and Chelios "soft"? Wow...

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07-06-2012, 11:29 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Hasek, 1999 Playoffs: .939 (league average, .908)
Fuhr, 1984 Playoffs: .910 (league average, .873)


For career value, Hasek is better, but if we're just getting each goaltender at their best, I don't see the series swinging either way on the goaltending - unless it's because one of them starts missing playoff games (something both of them did on multiple occasions).
the league average was .918 in 1999.

It really depends what you mean by "prime" - do we mean "their best 3-4 seasons" or "the best consecutive 20 games they ever played"?

I think the former made more sense. If it is the latter then Freddy Modin is close to as good as a lot of these guys.

By this comparison Fuhr was slightly ahead of Hasek at their very best (71% of the league average error rate as opposed to 74%) but this was the only time he did it, and Hasek did it every regular season and playoff for about 9 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
The ATD is far from perfect, and while it's weighted more towards prime, it considers career longevity also; however, there is a lot of research that goes into it, and it is at least one other way to evaluate these two teams. Looking at the draft positions from ATD 2012 really shows how much better the Detroit team is...

Forwards
Gretzky - 2
Messier - 28
Yzerman - 35
Kurri - 63
Fedorov - 77
Hull - 96
Shanahan - 112
Larionov - 136
Datsyuk - 145
Robitaille - 176

Anderson - 182
Ken Linseman - 499

Defense

Lidstrom - 11
Chelios - 30

Coffey - 33
Lowe - 285
Huddy - 440


Note: only listed players drafted in the top 500, and did not list goalies because of how sporadic they are drafted (obviously Hasek is a big advantage over Fuhr).
Good point.

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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Maybe Draper and Holmstrom too, they have a shot at it.
Oh my god, you have got to be kidding.

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07-06-2012, 11:33 AM
  #78
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This is a very difficult topic to assess. There are so many variables in the style of play, equipmet, and training methods to be able to compare these clubs on an equal playing field.

Perhaps we can have the team from "Deadliest Warrior" create a sim program for us

For what it's worth, the 1988 Oilers Playoff team > 1984 Oilers Playoff team (IMO, of course)

I think maybe a better comparison would be to compare two clubs from a similar era. For example, how would the 1988 Oilers stack up against the 1978 Canadiens? How would the 2003 Ducks fare against the 1995 Devils?

Good topic of discussion nonetheless.

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07-06-2012, 11:34 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
^^ what part of "at their prime" don't you understand? (That was directed at Kiss the Ring)
Skating around a prime old Federov.... ?

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07-06-2012, 11:37 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
The thing is what the Oilers did in '84 was real, they all really got all those points and played those minutes.
People keep talking about players in their prime for the Redwings...tell me, where are you going to fit all these career years into their playing time exactly?
Is Hull going to get 70+ goals while only playing 15-18 minutes, what about Shanny and Luc? They going to score 50+ goals with limited icetime?
Are you going to cut back a prime Yzerman from 25+ minutes to 20ish and still expect 130+ points?
Is the Grind line only going to be playing 10 minutes a game at most?

What era do they play this series in? Today's, '84?
If today, does that mean Fuhr gets to wear today's goalie equipment, do all these already potent Oiler scorers get to use today's comp sticks and does Coffey get to shed like 15-20lbs of equipment weight to be even faster than he was in '84?

If the teams play by '84 standards, I would absolutely love to see Hasek try and play his style without being completely exhausted by the end of the 2nd period wearing that equipment.
Heh not to mention Semenko and Hunter running around doing whatever the **** they please because as tough as Shanny and McCarty are, they would be greatly outclassed in this case.


Just the fact that it needs to be stated that the '02 Wings would need to have every one of their players in their prime just to compete, while that Oilers team pretty much goes into such a series as is about says it all IMO.
Agree with everything you said there, except for Hasek. We saw him play in the 1987 Canada Cup wearing that gear, and he was still impressive. And that was at age 19.

As others have mentioned, the Wings are better defensively, and in goal. The Oilers top-end forwards are better, but they lack overall depth. But the Oilers also had a lot of heart. If they get those players in their primes, then they have all the confidence and swagger of the team that dominated half the decade. And like you said, the Wings players aren't going to be all having career years with shared ice time - they just get them at that level. I think its close, and would go 7 either way. I voted Oilers for the Gretzky factor, but it could go wings because of Hasek.

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07-06-2012, 11:47 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Oh my god, you have got to be kidding.
4 Cups, Olympic gold, and legendary playoff contributions for each, a Selke, a World Cup, and a part of the "Grind Line" brand for Draper can be quite substantial.

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07-06-2012, 11:52 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
I still can't get over how people voting Detroit are doing it by naming their top lines and thinking some how Detroit is going to out skill the 80's Oilers. That's not how you beat that team and that's why Detroit would lose.

Everyone here remembers how skilled Edmonton was but forgets how physically dominating they were at the same time. The only teams that really gave Edmonton any trouble in the playoffs were ones that were able to step it up Physically and skate with them. Heck the Flames built their team based on those principals and had some success.

Islanders in the early 80's, Flames in the second half of the 80's.
Philedelphia in the 87 cup Final. gave Edmonton stiff competition.

Detroit is just too soft with that team to win a 7 game series.
I wouldn't worry about this, most of the Wings' players had their prime in a more physical era than the mid-80's were. Don't forget that their core swept Philadelphia with Lindros in 4 games.

For the record, the Wings were both taller and heavier than the Oilers:

http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.p...=60&year0=2002
http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.p...=61&year0=1984

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07-06-2012, 11:52 AM
  #83
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All the players on the DRW squad don't have to have career years to be "at their prime". All it means is you get four of the best two-way players in history, two of the best snipers, one of the best power forwards, one of the best dispatchers, two of the best positional defensemen, and the best goalie

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07-06-2012, 11:57 AM
  #84
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Hasek, Canada Cup 1984 & 1987

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
Agree with everything you said there, except for Hasek. We saw him play in the 1987 Canada Cup wearing that gear, and he was still impressive. And that was at age 19.

As others have mentioned, the Wings are better defensively, and in goal. The Oilers top-end forwards are better, but they lack overall depth. But the Oilers also had a lot of heart. If they get those players in their primes, then they have all the confidence and swagger of the team that dominated half the decade. And like you said, the Wings players aren't going to be all having career years with shared ice time - they just get them at that level. I think its close, and would go 7 either way. I voted Oilers for the Gretzky factor, but it could go wings because of Hasek.
In 1987 Domink Hasek was 23 not 19. Had a Canada Cup SV% in the .890 range.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...hasekdo01.html

Upthread there is a brief video vs Team USA from the 1984 Canada Cup. Also there are 1987 CC videos. Hasek does not move as well with the heavy equipment when compared to his movement ten years later with the light equipment.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-06-2012 at 11:58 AM. Reason: punc.
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Old
07-06-2012, 12:14 PM
  #85
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Not sure how you can take the Oilers in this, the 84 Oilers were practically all their key players in or about their prime so a real NHL team, the 02 Wings with everyone in their prime is some sort of fantasy squad created by either heaven or hell. And of course it was only a roster "doable" because those guys weren't in their primes.

The Gretzky argument doesn't really hold water, we saw the real prime Gretzky and he didn't win the Cup every year nor did he win every game for the Oil. And he was playing on a stacked team vs. real, not-so-stacked teams, not vs. fantasy squads with prime Yzerman, Fedorov, Larionov and Datsyuk down the middle and goal-scoring machines like Robitaille, Shanahan and Hull on the wings, Lidstrom and Chelios (plus guys like Olausson and Duchesne and Slegr who in their primes were very good as well) on D and a top 3 all-time goalie in Hasek in his prime in net. Never mind the less heralded wings like the "grind line" or Holmstrom.

It's no dis on the Oil to say those fantasy Wings would take it, because there's never been a real NHL team like that. The Wings would take it in 6.

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07-06-2012, 12:20 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
the league average was .918 in 1999.
Where did you come up with that figure?

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_SavePercentage.php

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07-06-2012, 12:35 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
In 1987 Domink Hasek was 23 not 19. Had a Canada Cup SV% in the .890 range.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...hasekdo01.html

Upthread there is a brief video vs Team USA from the 1984 Canada Cup. Also there are 1987 CC videos. Hasek does not move as well with the heavy equipment when compared to his movement ten years later with the light equipment.


Hasek's international play before 1998 wasn't special.

His save percentages are as follows
1984 CC: .867
1987 CC: .894
1988 OLY: .833
1991 CC: .871

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07-06-2012, 12:36 PM
  #88
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I think there is some serious nostalgia going on here.

I think, if in a couple of months, this same question was presented as the '02 Wings in their respective primes vs. Prime versions of:

Mario Lemieux, Ron Francis, Bryan Trottier, Joe Mullen, Brian Leetch, and Mike Richter, and then all of the supporting cast Oilers (and yep, the players listed are close equivalents to the core Oilers mentioned here)

I think the comparison would get laughed at.

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07-06-2012, 12:38 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
4 Cups, Olympic gold, and legendary playoff contributions for each, a Selke, a World Cup, and a part of the "Grind Line" brand for Draper can be quite substantial.
Oh, thank God, you are kidding, for a while I thought you meant that.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Where did you come up with that figure?

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_SavePercentage.php
Aha! Thank you for the help. I had Olaf Kolzig and his 740 shots and incredible sv% listed under 1999 instead of 1998, which was throwing off my 1998 and 1999 data by about 3 points. Strangely, as it turns out, the right answer wasn't what either of us initially said. It is .915.

(I was closer )

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07-06-2012, 12:39 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Lacaar: are you really calling The Grind Line, Shanahan, Holmstrom, Hull, and Chelios "soft"? Wow...
You're telling Brett Hull wasn't a soft player. He was soft as they've ever come.
Holmstren could take a pounding but he wasn't very fast and never gave a pounding.

That leaves Chelios and Shannahan. Two very capable physical top players. That's all I see in that lineup.

Unless you want to start playing Darren Mccarty and Kris Draper against gretz and mess. Good luck with that, it's been tried.

My point is you need your high end players able to skate and be physical to really compete and beat the Edmonton teams of the 80's. Detroits high end forwards aren't physical enough to take away Edmonton's skill advantage. Everyone's argument is that Detroit is going to beat them on skill to which I disagree.

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07-06-2012, 12:39 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
I think there is some serious nostalgia going on here.

I think, if in a couple of months, this same question was presented as the '02 Wings in their respective primes vs. Prime versions of:

Mario Lemieux, Ron Francis, Bryan Trottier, Joe Mullen, Brian Leetch, and Mike Richter, and then all of the supporting cast Oilers (and yep, the players listed are close equivalents to the core Oilers mentioned here)

I think the comparison would get laughed at.
true.

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07-06-2012, 01:04 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Aha! Thank you for the help. I had Olaf Kolzig and his 740 shots and incredible sv% listed under 1999 instead of 1998, which was throwing off my 1998 and 1999 data by about 3 points. Strangely, as it turns out, the right answer wasn't what either of us initially said. It is .915.

(I was closer )
You see, I always go by the regular season number. Larger sample. Every goalie. Not as skewed by the presence of the Finalists.

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07-06-2012, 01:07 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
You're telling Brett Hull wasn't a soft player. He was soft as they've ever come.
Holmstren could take a pounding but he wasn't very fast and never gave a pounding.

That leaves Chelios and Shannahan. Two very capable physical top players. That's all I see in that lineup.

Unless you want to start playing Darren Mccarty and Kris Draper against gretz and mess. Good luck with that, it's been tried.

My point is you need your high end players able to skate and be physical to really compete and beat the Edmonton teams of the 80's. Detroits high end forwards aren't physical enough to take away Edmonton's skill advantage. Everyone's argument is that Detroit is going to beat them on skill to which I disagree.
While no one is going to fully stop a prime Gretzky-Kurri combo, this Detroit team can put out a pretty effective line against them...

Datsyuk - Larionov - Draper backed up by Lidstrom - Chelios...that's definitely better than anyone they faced in real life.

The Messier line will have its hands full against Shanahan-Yzerman-Hull, and then who's left to stop Robitaille-Fedorov-Holmstrom?

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07-06-2012, 02:16 PM
  #94
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Hasek's international play before 1998 wasn't special.

His save percentages are as follows
1984 CC: .867
1987 CC: .894
1988 OLY: .833
1991 CC: .871
I don't think this is really that meaningful because he was playing on a team that was relatively weak compared to the powerhouses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
You see, I always go by the regular season number. Larger sample. Every goalie. Not as skewed by the presence of the Finalists.
true, I hope there is a shift in this way of thinking.

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07-06-2012, 02:44 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
While no one is going to fully stop a prime Gretzky-Kurri combo, this Detroit team can put out a pretty effective line against them...

Datsyuk - Larionov - Draper backed up by Lidstrom - Chelios...that's definitely better than anyone they faced in real life.

The Messier line will have its hands full against Shanahan-Yzerman-Hull, and then who's left to stop Robitaille-Fedorov-Holmstrom?
My point again... The Datsyuk line you mentioned and the Yzerman line you're trying to tell me are going to outskill the Oilers. I don't think that's possible.

I think there's less talented teams that could beat the Oilers than the Detroit team listed. Ones that play to the Oilers weaknesses like the Flames did. Turn the series into a war and you'll level the odds against the 80's Oilers. Turn it into a game of chess and the odds favor the Oilers.

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07-06-2012, 02:49 PM
  #96
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07-06-2012, 03:21 PM
  #97
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Meaningful

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't think this is really that meaningful because he was playing on a team that was relatively weak compared to the powerhouses.



true, I hope there is a shift in this way of thinking.
1987 Canada Cup results:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Canada_Cup

Czechoslovakia outshot Canada, the USSR and Sweden yet wound up with a tie against Canada and two loses.

!984 Hasek was pulled against West Germany and very early against Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Canada_Cup

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07-06-2012, 03:27 PM
  #98
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My point again... The Datsyuk line you mentioned and the Yzerman line you're trying to tell me are going to outskill the Oilers. I don't think that's possible.

I think there's less talented teams that could beat the Oilers than the Detroit team listed. Ones that play to the Oilers weaknesses like the Flames did. Turn the series into a war and you'll level the odds against the 80's Oilers. Turn it into a game of chess and the odds favor the Oilers.
Just because Detroit has more skilled forward depth doesn't mean they're going to try to play run-and-gun against the Oilers...that would be stupid, and Bowman would never have it anyway. They're going to play defense-first hockey and try to control the puck as much as possible just like they always do. They have a combination of size, skill, and at least one high quality defensive player on each of the first 3 lines. Robitaille is the only real question mark for this type of system, and he's covered by Fedorov and likely not going up against either the Gretzky or Messier lines.

As for the Datsyuk-Larionov-Draper line, they are not going to outskill the Gretzky line, they are a two-way defensive/shutdown line...their main goal would be preventing the Gretzky line from scoring as much as possible. This line has two Selke winners and between them the defensive conscience of arguably the greatest Soviet line of all time. The best part is, when they do manage to take the puck away, Datsyuk and Larionov are strong enough offensively to score going the other way, which will keep the Oilers a little more honest than if they were all one-way defensive guys like Draper. This is not a soft line either, they won't be intimidated by whichever big physical LW gets to play with Wayne and Jari. As I said previously, it's impossible to completely stop the Gretzky line, but this line will likely do a better job than anyone else ever did against them.

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07-06-2012, 04:07 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Just because Detroit has more skilled forward depth doesn't mean they're going to try to play run-and-gun against the Oilers...that would be stupid, and Bowman would never have it anyway. They're going to play defense-first hockey and try to control the puck as much as possible just like they always do. They have a combination of size, skill, and at least one high quality defensive player on each of the first 3 lines. Robitaille is the only real question mark for this type of system, and he's covered by Fedorov and likely not going up against either the Gretzky or Messier lines.

As for the Datsyuk-Larionov-Draper line, they are not going to outskill the Gretzky line, they are a two-way defensive/shutdown line...their main goal would be preventing the Gretzky line from scoring as much as possible. This line has two Selke winners and between them the defensive conscience of arguably the greatest Soviet line of all time. The best part is, when they do manage to take the puck away, Datsyuk and Larionov are strong enough offensively to score going the other way, which will keep the Oilers a little more honest than if they were all one-way defensive guys like Draper. This is not a soft line either, they won't be intimidated by whichever big physical LW gets to play with Wayne and Jari. As I said previously, it's impossible to completely stop the Gretzky line, but this line will likely do a better job than anyone else ever did against them.
So are you really saying that the Datsyuk-Larionov-Draper line would do a better job of stopping the Gretzky line then ANY OTHER line they ever faced?


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07-06-2012, 04:18 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
70sLord: ???
!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1987 Canada Cup results:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Canada_Cup

Czechoslovakia outshot Canada, the USSR and Sweden yet wound up with a tie against Canada and two loses.

!984 Hasek was pulled against West Germany and very early against Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Canada_Cup
outshot doesn't mean outplayed. Did anyone think the Czechs were close to as good as Canada or the Soviets? the Swedes were likely more favoured too, but at least that one was close.

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