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Paul Stastny+ for Joe Colborne+

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Old
07-04-2012, 07:18 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
What needs?? Tell me right now? If we keep Stastny we do not need Colborne. He is not a need. We have Landeskog, Downie, Parenteau, Jones, McGinn, Hedjuk as our top 9 wingers. Why do we need Kulmein and Mac??? Those are facts. This fills NONE of our needs. Think before posting next time. We need a top line winger or a top pairing D. THOSE are our needs. Yeah, go ahead, tell me how Stasnty would never fetch that in return, and I willingly admit he probably would not. But unless we get one of those pieces in return, WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO REASON TO MOVE STASTNY. NONE. WHATSOEVER.
Settle down. Stop getting your panties in a bunch and just have a rational discussion before you stroke out.

In my opinion, both of these guys are solid upgrades over McGinn. Parenteau had one good season (cough cough, Jason Blake, cough cough) so he's not guarantee to produce at the same rate next season. Hejduk is good, but getting older and may not be able to produce at a sizeable rate. Solid depth is what great teams are made of, and I'd rather have 2 guys who can product 40 points than one guy who can produce 55.

As far a top pairing winger, they need not always be high-end skill guys. Scott Hartnell skated on Philly's top line with Giroux. Gonna call him a top line guy? You have lots of skill, and you get more. Not a bad thing.

As far as Colborne goes, he's a good add for anyone. Avs don't have many centre prospects outside of Hishon (who I think will be very good, but not yet). AT worst he's a great call up from Hershey if needed.

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07-04-2012, 07:19 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Avs weren't a playoff team in 2010-11... looks like you got your facts off a tiny bit. But once you fix that, your post is pretty much perfect.

Stastny is definitely along the lines of Zherdev and Schremp, I'm amazed I didn't notice that comparison yet.
You are correct sir! I messed up the years, it was 2009-2010 they were in the post-season. My bad! Forgot Anderson fudged his knee up, they tanked, traded for Varlamov to try and stop that from happening again, and drafted Landeskog

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07-04-2012, 07:20 PM
  #153
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Stastny for Phaneuf

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07-04-2012, 07:22 PM
  #154
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Stastny is overrated and would never get back Phaneuf in a trade. Grabovski puts up the same production as Stastny (and at a lower cap hit) anyway.

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07-04-2012, 07:23 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Stastny for Phaneuf
I beat you to it already. One Avs fan said no because of character issues. I still think it's a good fit.

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07-04-2012, 07:26 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I beat you to it already. One Avs fan said no because of character issues. I still think it's a good fit.
Damn you're always beating me to these things

Character issues lol I wonder why he's the Leafs captain then

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07-04-2012, 07:31 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by alissa View Post
[I]
Colorado Avalanche:
Landeskog Duchene Parenteau
Jones O'Reilly Downie
MacArthur Colborne Kulemin
McGinn Mitchell Kobasew

Toronto Maple Leafs:
Lupul Stastny Kessel
JVR Grabovski Frattin
Kadri McClement Hejduk
Brown Steckel Lombardi
hahahahahaha...dream on...

this would never happen, unless the colorado gm fried his remaining brain cells. Stastny is a great player for colorado, and it would take a **** ton to get him out of there. The deal you had proposed there would work for about a million different reasons...nice try though

another thing....you have Kadri OVER Lombardi?...what has Nazem done to deserve that third line spot in the last 2 years? I see him on the 4th line more than likely, and that is IF HE IS LUCKY.

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07-04-2012, 07:32 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by JVRallday View Post
Stastny is overrated and would never get back Phaneuf in a trade. Grabovski puts up the same production as Stastny (and at a lower cap hit) anyway.
Then why is it some leafs fans constantly make proposals for him? I don't see Avs fans starting this.

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07-04-2012, 07:37 PM
  #159
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Stastny for Phaneuf is very fair value wise, but I can't see Burke trading away his captain at this point.

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07-04-2012, 07:38 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by TribalPhoenix View Post
Settle down. Stop getting your panties in a bunch and just have a rational discussion before you stroke out.

In my opinion, both of these guys are solid upgrades over McGinn. Parenteau had one good season (cough cough, Jason Blake, cough cough) so he's not guarantee to produce at the same rate next season. Hejduk is good, but getting older and may not be able to produce at a sizeable rate. Solid depth is what great teams are made of, and I'd rather have 2 guys who can product 40 points than one guy who can produce 55.

As far a top pairing winger, they need not always be high-end skill guys. Scott Hartnell skated on Philly's top line with Giroux. Gonna call him a top line guy? You have lots of skill, and you get more. Not a bad thing.

As far as Colborne goes, he's a good add for anyone. Avs don't have many centre prospects outside of Hishon (who I think will be very good, but not yet). AT worst he's a great call up from Hershey if needed.
Perhaps you could call Mac and Kulmein slight upgrade( I disagree but whatever) but were certainly not trading Stasnty for a slight upgrade. Were more than happy to go with Stastny-Duchene-O'Reilly down the middle, and having that kind of depth looks a lot better than Duchene-O'Reilly-Colborne/anther mid center. Adding Mac and Kulmein would mean Hedjuk and McGinn would likely be pushed to the 4th line. Yes, depth is nice, but thats just called an utter waste. Like I said, no need for either of those wingers. About Parenteau's one good season(he actually had two by my count, but whatever)n the same can be said for Kulmein.


Yes, you don't have to have a top line winger, and can use guys who would typically be a tier below, and that system is something the Avs have been using for a while. Obviously a legit top winger would be nice though. As I said before, unless we get a top winger or top D in return, were not moving Stastny. We already have depth, adding two more top 9 wingers is a waste. The fact that Stastny on the market may not be worth one of the two pieces we need I listed above is irrelevant. We have no need to move him. He is not an impending UFA whom might walk, and despite the fact that everybody brings it up, we are not bothered in the least by his contract. Kulmein and Mac are not junk, and they certainly hold value, just not to us. Lets say Jones had walked as a UFA, Parenteau never signed with us, and we never traded for Downie, then yes, you might find Avs fans a lot more receptive to something like this. But none of that happened. Despite your assertion that this filled a need for us, it does not. The result of this trade would be that we traded one of our best players for a luxury, and a prospect that may or may not turn out, while creating another hole( we would need a center) and filling none of our real needs.

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07-04-2012, 07:47 PM
  #161
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No Bozak?!

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07-04-2012, 07:49 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Bruins71 View Post
Stastny for Phaneuf is very fair value wise, but I can't see Burke trading away his captain at this point.
Requoted for truth. This basically summarizes this whole thread. COL will not give a former 1st line centre for excess wingers and the Leafs won't give our captain for a guy who hasn't shown that point production for 2 years when we already have that in Grabovski. Unless Sherman or Burke have brainfarts, there's no deal to be made.

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07-04-2012, 07:54 PM
  #163
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Funny that Leaf fans always want to trade for Stastny and when we say no they come back and say Stastny sucks and the players they offered are so much better then Stastny.

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07-04-2012, 07:57 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TribalPhoenix View Post
FACT :

Paul Stastny had 2 more points than Mikhail Grabovski last season.... but it took him 5 more games to get them.

Paul Stastny had 1 fewer point than Mikhail Grabovski in 2010-2011, though he did play 7 fewer games.... and he was on a playoff team.

Paul Stastny made 6.6M$ for his 53 points last season. We paid 2.9M$ for Grabovski. Even with his new contract, Grabovski makes 1.1M$ less than Stastny for similar production.

Paul Stastny is 2 years removed from his point-per-game production, and Avs fans still think he's an elite player. Nikolai Kulemin is 1 year removed from his 30 goal season, and Avs fans think he's now a 'scrub'.

Paul Stastny is extremely talented. So is Nikolai Zherdev and Rob Schremp. Point being that your value is not based in talent, it is based in production. Simple fact, completely objective, the way the world works. You're paid for what you will DO, and not what you HAVE DONE.

Bottom line is if anyone thinks they're going to get top tier talent or prospects (i.e. Kessel, Gardiner, Rielly, etc), you're kidding yourself. Ultimately this is a fair trade for both sides as it addresses needs for both. Grabovski is not an elite talent, and yet he's highly comparable to Stastny at a cheaper price tag... and yet no one would say he's fetch players or prospects on the level of Gardiner, Rielly, etc. Mac, Kulie, and Colborne are solid players and this would be a move that could ultimately be a win-win.

i ve got a counteroffer for you:

Cody McLeod, Chuck Kobasew, Brad Malone, Mark Olver, Luke Walker, Trevor Cann, Joachim Nermark,Justin Mercier, Dwight Condon and a 4th for Kulemin and Kadri .

Burke always talks about needing more grit.
Both Kulemin and Kobasew scored 7 goals last year. Kulemin had a better year before but Kobasew has also scored 20 goals once. Kobasew is grittier and he is a good solid Canadien boy. Kulemin is Russian but I am sure he is slightly better than Kobasew because he is a better passer. Cody McLeod is a warrior. Plays gritty and chips in the necessary goals.

Kadri is a bust. He was in the AHL for multiple years and could not make a putrid Leafs team. We kind of do you a favor by taking him on.

You also get a lot of promising prospects. Nermark was one of the most talented swedes in last years draft. He is not there yet but he will come around. Olver is a better version of Kadri. And he has put up points in the NHL. The rest of the guys are decent prospects who surely will make an impact with the Leafs.


So you have Kulemin > Kobasew in production.
And you have Olver,Mcleod and our prospects > Kadri in production by far.


And when you start to take a look at the contracts it is not even close.

Kobasew only makes 1 250 000 $ and he scored as many goals as Kulemin.
Olver is much cheaper than Kadri
McLeod only costs 1 150 000 $

I really don't see how Burke could turn down this deal.
I mean clearly you get rid of 2 underperforming guys and get much tougher and save money. Thats what Burke always says he wants. The Avs fill one of their most pressing needs and upgrade in Top 12 forwards.

I think this trade is clearly in the interest of both franchises.

Time to call our GMs.


Last edited by JoemAvs: 07-04-2012 at 08:03 PM.
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07-04-2012, 07:58 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TribalPhoenix View Post
Settle down. Stop getting your panties in a bunch and just have a rational discussion before you stroke out.

In my opinion, both of these guys are solid upgrades over McGinn. Parenteau had one good season (cough cough, Jason Blake, cough cough) so he's not guarantee to produce at the same rate next season. Hejduk is good, but getting older and may not be able to produce at a sizeable rate. Solid depth is what great teams are made of, and I'd rather have 2 guys who can product 40 points than one guy who can produce 55.

As far a top pairing winger, they need not always be high-end skill guys. Scott Hartnell skated on Philly's top line with Giroux. Gonna call him a top line guy? You have lots of skill, and you get more. Not a bad thing.

As far as Colborne goes, he's a good add for anyone. Avs don't have many centre prospects outside of Hishon (who I think will be very good, but not yet). AT worst he's a great call up from Hershey if needed.
Hishon, Sgarbossa, Heard, Bourke, Olver/Malone (similar to Kadri, centers being converted), Condon, Nermark and some more young guys we just drafted. Plenty of prospect centers.

And as far as wingers go, I'd rather keep the depth we have than add more depth.

Why should we trade quality (Stastny) for depth? We have depth. McGinn on the top line is like Hartnell on the top line, not a top 3 winger but if he has chemistry it can work. I'd rather have McGinn + Downie + Stastny in our top 9 than trade Stastny and put someone like Bozak/Colborne in the top 9 and have guys like Hejduk/Kobasew sit in favor of MacArthur/Kulemin playing on the 4th line with Mitchell.

The problem is, we've had this rational discussion a lot. And it always devolves down to, "Stastny is an overpaid declining center, he's not worth what you want. But we still want him, here's why he isn't worth that, but we'll trade you our spare parts for him, because we think your team isn't very good and could use them."

Please, for the love of god. Read my statistical breakdown of Stastny, it explains why he hasn't declined and why he isn't going to be worth spare parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVRallday View Post
Stastny is overrated and would never get back Phaneuf in a trade. Grabovski puts up the same production as Stastny (and at a lower cap hit) anyway.
That's fine, let the Avs keep our overrated and overpaid center.

If he was so bad, why would Avs fans want to keep him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Damn you're always beating me to these things

Character issues lol I wonder why he's the Leafs captain then
The way Phaneuf got forced out of Calgary and how he isn't viewed as a good captain in Toronto? I don't even think Phaneuf and EJ would mesh very well.

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07-04-2012, 08:02 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
i ve got a counteroffer for you:

Cody McLeod, Chuck Kobasew, Brad Malone, Mark Olver, Luke Walker, Trevor Cann, Joachim Nermark,Justin Mercier, Dwight Condon and a 4th for Kulemin and Kadri .

Burke always talks about needing more grit.
Both Kulemin and Kobasew scored 7 goals last year. Kulemin had a better year before but Kobasew has also scored 20 goals once. Kobasew is grittier and he is a good solid Canadien boy. Kulemin is Russian but I am sure he is slightly better than Kobasew because he is a better passer. Cody McLeod is a warrior. Plays gritty and chips in the necessary goals.

Kadri is a bust. He was in the AHL for multiple years and could not make a putrid Leafs team. We kind of do you a favor by taking him on.

You also get a lot of promising prospects. Nermark was one of the most talented swedes in last years draft. He is not there yet but he will come around. Olver is a better version of Kadri. And he has put up points in the NHL. The rest of the guys are decent prospects who surely will make an impact with the Leafs.


So you have Kulemin > Kobasew in production.
And you have Olver,Mcleod and our prospects > Kadri in production by far.


And when you start to take a look at the contracts it is not even close.

Kobasew only makes 1 250 000 $ and he scored as many goals as Kulemin.
Olver is much cheaper than Kadri
McLeod only costs 1 150 000 $

I really don't see how Burke could turn down this deal.
I mean clearly you get rid of 2 underperforming guys and get much tougher and save money. Thats what Burke always says he wants. I think this trade is clearly in the interest of both franchises.

Time to call our GMs.
I love you.

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07-04-2012, 08:03 PM
  #167
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Statsny is overpaid, but who cares. He's a damn good player.

I think it's only fair if we center the trade around this:

Statsny +++ for Toninato

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07-04-2012, 08:08 PM
  #168
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Funny that Leaf fans always want to trade for Stastny and when we say no they come back and say Stastny sucks and the players they offered are so much better then Stastny.
Not every Leaf fan wants to trade Stastny, For starters he's not a 1C but a decent 2C which they already have in Grabo who comes 1.1 mil cheaper, Leafs don't need another 2C making 6.6 mil whos numbers have been on the decline for past 2 years

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07-04-2012, 08:10 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by H0MER View Post
Not every Leaf fan wants to trade Stastny, For starters he's not a 1C but a decent 2C which they already have in Grabo who comes 1.1 mil cheaper, Leafs don't need another 2C making 6.6 mil whos numbers have been on the decline for past 2 years
Who made this proposal? That's right a Leafs fan.

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07-04-2012, 08:11 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
Statsny is overpaid, but who cares. He's a damn good player.

I think it's only fair if we center the trade around this:

Statsny +++ for Toninato
Toninato looking good at camp make it

Statsny +++++ for Toninato

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07-04-2012, 08:11 PM
  #171
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Then why is it some leafs fans constantly make proposals for him? I don't see Avs fans starting this.
What does that have to do with me?

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07-04-2012, 08:12 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H0MER View Post
Not every Leaf fan wants to trade Stastny, For starters he's not a 1C but a decent 2C which they already have in Grabo who comes 1.1 mil cheaper, Leafs don't need another 2C making 6.6 mil whos numbers have been on the decline for past 2 years
A lot of leafs fans seem to think otherwise. Why else would we see these Stastny proposals every week?

It's because he's a good to excellent center with playmaking skills, defensively responsible, and is able to score at a PPG clip (he did it for 2 seasons and almost a 3rd) with mediocre wingers.

He struggled for 2 seasons and now Leafs fans think they can snag him for less than he's worth.

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07-04-2012, 08:14 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by TribalPhoenix View Post
FACT :

Paul Stastny had 2 more points than Mikhail Grabovski last season.... but it took him 5 more games to get them.

Paul Stastny had 1 fewer point than Mikhail Grabovski in 2010-2011, though he did play 7 fewer games.... and he was on a playoff team.

Paul Stastny made 6.6M$ for his 53 points last season. We paid 2.9M$ for Grabovski. Even with his new contract, Grabovski makes 1.1M$ less than Stastny for similar production.

Paul Stastny is 2 years removed from his point-per-game production, and Avs fans still think he's an elite player. Nikolai Kulemin is 1 year removed from his 30 goal season, and Avs fans think he's now a 'scrub'.

Paul Stastny is extremely talented. So is Nikolai Zherdev and Rob Schremp. Point being that your value is not based in talent, it is based in production. Simple fact, completely objective, the way the world works. You're paid for what you will DO, and not what you HAVE DONE.

Bottom line is if anyone thinks they're going to get top tier talent or prospects (i.e. Kessel, Gardiner, Rielly, etc), you're kidding yourself. Ultimately this is a fair trade for both sides as it addresses needs for both. Grabovski is not an elite talent, and yet he's highly comparable to Stastny at a cheaper price tag... and yet no one would say he's fetch players or prospects on the level of Gardiner, Rielly, etc. Mac, Kulie, and Colborne are solid players and this would be a move that could ultimately be a win-win.
Thanks tips. Now give us an offer that actually helps us. O wait...

Why exactly would we do a trade with Toronto, who simply don't have what we need? Theres other teams that are looking for a #1 center who would give us better value for Stastny.

As stated numerous times, we don't want to trade Stastny.

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07-04-2012, 08:19 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Perhaps you could call Mac and Kulmein slight upgrade( I disagree but whatever) but were certainly not trading Stasnty for a slight upgrade. Were more than happy to go with Stastny-Duchene-O'Reilly down the middle, and having that kind of depth looks a lot better than Duchene-O'Reilly-Colborne/anther mid center. Adding Mac and Kulmein would mean Hedjuk and McGinn would likely be pushed to the 4th line. Yes, depth is nice, but thats just called an utter waste. Like I said, no need for either of those wingers. About Parenteau's one good season(he actually had two by my count, but whatever)n the same can be said for Kulmein.


Yes, you don't have to have a top line winger, and can use guys who would typically be a tier below, and that system is something the Avs have been using for a while. Obviously a legit top winger would be nice though. As I said before, unless we get a top winger or top D in return, were not moving Stastny. We already have depth, adding two more top 9 wingers is a waste. The fact that Stastny on the market may not be worth one of the two pieces we need I listed above is irrelevant. We have no need to move him. He is not an impending UFA whom might walk, and despite the fact that everybody brings it up, we are not bothered in the least by his contract. Kulmein and Mac are not junk, and they certainly hold value, just not to us. Lets say Jones had walked as a UFA, Parenteau never signed with us, and we never traded for Downie, then yes, you might find Avs fans a lot more receptive to something like this. But none of that happened. Despite your assertion that this filled a need for us, it does not. The result of this trade would be that we traded one of our best players for a luxury, and a prospect that may or may not turn out, while creating another hole( we would need a center) and filling none of our real needs.
Fair points.

I think it all comes down to the direction you want to take your team. If I were in the Avs drivers seat, I'd want to build a team that had depth... kind of a money ball type thing. Depth is what took a team like the Kings so far, because no one could stop the variety of attack they could put out on the ice. For my team, I'd rather see a couple of solid wingers, and go out and grab a 3rd line centre which would be somewhat cheaper on FA or via trade.

When all is said and done, it's all about the decisions of the guys upstairs I suppose!

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07-04-2012, 08:19 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TribalPhoenix View Post
Settle down. Stop getting your panties in a bunch and just have a rational discussion before you stroke out.

In my opinion, both of these guys are solid upgrades over McGinn. Parenteau had one good season (cough cough, Jason Blake, cough cough) so he's not guarantee to produce at the same rate next season. Hejduk is good, but getting older and may not be able to produce at a sizeable rate. Solid depth is what great teams are made of, and I'd rather have 2 guys who can product 40 points than one guy who can produce 55.

As far a top pairing winger, they need not always be high-end skill guys. Scott Hartnell skated on Philly's top line with Giroux. Gonna call him a top line guy? You have lots of skill, and you get more. Not a bad thing.

As far as Colborne goes, he's a good add for anyone. Avs don't have many centre prospects outside of Hishon (who I think will be very good, but not yet). AT worst he's a great call up from Hershey if needed.
So Parenteau's only had 1 good season - even though his last 2 year point total (120 pts) and his last season (67pts) was higher then Grabovski (108, 58), Kulemin (85/57) or MacArthur (105/62) best year(s). And his 2 good seasons are a fluke, but Grabo, Kuli and MacA's 2 good seasons (1 in Kuli's case) are evidence that they are valuable top 6 wingers. I just wanted to check to see if I got that right.

Add to the above argument that Stastny's value is low because he's had 2 down years after 3 great years (2 years of fairly difficult hockey for the whole Avs organization I might add), but Grabo and MacA's value is high when they've only had 2 good seasons that are comparable to Stastny's down years.

Stastny is a very good 200 ft. player who would be a 1st line C on 15 teams in the NHL and a top 6 on 28 teams. His value is very high based on the position he plays, his age and his proven ability. The only downside of Stastny is his cap hit, but that isn't an issue for the Avs because they're closer to the floor then the cap so it's not an issue at all. To another team with limited cap space it could be a negative but that is the other teams issue, not Colorado's. To the Avs Stastny is worth nearly as much as Richards, and about the same as Carter.

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