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01-07-2005, 08:00 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Oh, so because he's had a good 30 games or so, all of a sudden, despite everything that was said about him before being drafted, he all of a sudden has the talent? Please. Nice spin job though.
So all of a sudden you're the big Ryan Kesler expert around here now huh?

Even Burke & company told the media that they drafted Kesler to be a top 6 forward, not a plugger.

Your arguments have some massive holes.

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01-07-2005, 08:01 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
So all of a sudden you're the big Ryan Kesler expert around here now huh?

Even Burke & company told the media that they drafted Kesler to be a top 6 forward, not a plugger.

Your arguments have some massive holes.
Never claimed to be an expert...just going by what the experts say. Sorry if that cotradicts your belief. Im done with this argument as its obviously not going anywhere.

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01-07-2005, 08:05 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Never claimed to be an expert...just going by what the experts say. Sorry if that cotradicts your belief. Im done with this argument as its obviously not going anywhere.
That is laughable. Give me links or evidence from four of your so-called experts. Your presumptuous attitude and ignorance to Kesler's current stats are what makes this argument static.

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01-07-2005, 08:07 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
That is laughable. Give me links or evidence from four of your so-called experts. Your presumptuous attitude and ignorance to Kesler's current stats are what makes this argument static.
Ah so you are one of those people who likes to judge on stats. Thanks for wasting time.

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01-07-2005, 08:09 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Ah so you are one of those people who likes to judge on stats. Thanks for wasting time.
I actually watch Ryan Kesler play.

For my arguments I use the knowledge I have of his real-life game and use stats to back up my posts.

You seem to be stuck on the opinions of 1-2 so-called experts you can't even name.

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01-07-2005, 08:12 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
I actually watch Ryan Kesler play.

For my arguments I use the knowledge I have of his real-life game and use stats to back up my posts.
Oh how surprising. A Canuck fan who watches a Canuck prospect play. That surely makes you knowledgeable on the subject. Enjoy the rest of this thread...its just a waste of time to discuss this further with you.

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01-07-2005, 08:14 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Oh how surprising. A Canuck fan who watches a Canuck prospect play. That surely makes you knowledgeable on the subject. Enjoy the rest of this thread...its just a waste of time to discuss this further with you.
If you haven't watched Kesler play and refuse to believe the stats he has put up in the AHL, then why are you even attempting to have an argument about him.

Appears you are merely wasting your own time and was looking for a schooling on a topic you know nothing about.

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01-07-2005, 08:17 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
If you haven't watched Kesler play and refuse to believe the stats he has put up in the AHL, then why are you even attempting to have an argument about him.

Appears you are merely wasting your own time and was looking for a schooling on a topic you know nothing about.
Who the **** cares if I have watched him play? You have watched him play. Big ****ing wow. You are a Canuck fan, watching a Canuck top prospect play. How shocking to hear nothing but positives from you. I dont refuse to believe anything. They are nice numbers. Plenty of players have put up nice numbers in the past only to move on to become NHL 3rd liners. Its really not a bad thing that Kesler is gonna be a solid 3rd line captain. Really, it isnt.

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01-07-2005, 08:52 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Who the **** cares if I have watched him play? You have watched him play. Big ****ing wow. You are a Canuck fan, watching a Canuck top prospect play. How shocking to hear nothing but positives from you. I dont refuse to believe anything. They are nice numbers. Plenty of players have put up nice numbers in the past only to move on to become NHL 3rd liners. Its really not a bad thing that Kesler is gonna be a solid 3rd line captain. Really, it isnt.
It's because WE AS CANUCK FANS, would be the FIRST to bark how aweful the Kesler selection was, had he be playing crap hockey.

We don't need your lack of knowledge posts, telling us what Kesler might or might not become. We're just praising Kesler's strong development as a prospect, no need to step down on him.

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01-07-2005, 08:54 PM
  #60
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It's like me saying Brule's a great prospect, because I've seen him play before, and he outshines 95% of the offensive players in the WHL. I don't need to see someone tell me that "Brule isn't that great of a player", who lives in Russia and has yet to see him, or any other WHL players in action.

Likewise with Kesler, I've actually seen him play, and is in contant contact with people who watch him every game in Manitoba.

It's like how we say Fedor Fedorov sucks (right now). We don't praise him at all. Get your facts straight.

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01-07-2005, 09:16 PM
  #61
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Ironic how me being a fan of Steen and Colaiacovo negates anything positive I have to say about the two... but there are a dozen Vancouver fans choosing Ryan Kesler over Steen because he's the 2nd youngest scorer in the AHL... yet, it would be taboo to say that their opinions are pure bias and mean squat.

EDIT: He's actually the third youngest in the top 20... Brown and Staal.


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01-07-2005, 09:33 PM
  #62
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Whoever is questioning Steen's size must not have seen him play the other night on Sportsnet. He's listed at 6'0, 183 lbs... but he's very muscular and has a tremendous presence physically.

Size is not an issue with this guy.

I'm not too sure those numbers are even correct, he's probably around 6'0, 190'ish.

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01-07-2005, 10:04 PM
  #63
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Kesler has 33 points in 34 games, but Brown is younger, and has 36 points in 36 games. By the Canuck fans logic, Brown will be better.

Steen plays in a league with men, while the AHL is a league filled with young players and journeymen, but Kesler has more competition because he is a Canuck prospect.

Bias!

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01-07-2005, 10:07 PM
  #64
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From Internet hockey database. The 2003 draft.

Quote:
23 Vancouver Ryan Kesler C Ohio State University (NCAA)
24 Philadelphia Mike Richards C Kitchener Rangers (OHL)
25 Florida Anthony Stewart R Kingston Frontenacs (OHL)
26 Los Angeles Brian Boyle F St. Sebastian's [Mass. H.S.]
27 Los Angeles Jeff Tambellini U. of Michigan (NCAA)
28 Anaheim Corey Perry R London Knights (OHL)
Now, be serious Canuck fans, is there anyone taken after Kesler that you would rather have?

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01-07-2005, 11:07 PM
  #65
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^That's apples and oranges...there were a LOT of good young players in the 2003 draft. Nobody's saying Kesler is the top guy out of the draft, and no one's saying Kesler's better than everyone who was drafted after him.

The simple fact is, some Canuck fans are seeing great potential in him because he's showing more dimensions to his game then was projected. He scored 31 points in 40 games with OSU in the collegiate leagues, which aren't bad numbers. He played in two World Junior Championships, scoring 10 points in 13 games along with winning a gold medal with Team USA. He played 28 games with the Vancouver Canucks as a 19-year-old and earned praise from his coach, manager and teammates. And this year, he's one of the youngest players in the top-20 scoring in the AHL and at this point is scoring at a point-a-game clip, while playing a two-way role, a physical game, playing in every clutch situation possible, and performing in a leadership capacity for the team?

What's not to be happy about with how Kesler has performed so far?

By the by, I have absolutely nothing against Steen as I have not seen or heard much about him. But whoever said the comment about "Steen playing in a league with men while Kesler plays in a league with kids and journeymen" just how smart of a comment is that? The AHL has plenty of excellent players who have gone over to play in Europe. Look at the Spengler Cup for instance, where Canada anually plays well--lots of those guys are former AHL guys. Kesler plays in a league where a lot of men and veterans play, guys who could probably get contracts over in Europe no problem. Look at Kesler's own team: Koltsov was signed by Avangard of the Russian league. Before being re-signed by the Moose, their captain Nolan Baumgartner had been signed to play in Germany. One of last year's stars for the Moose, Brandon Reid, currently does play in Germany. Jaroslav Obsut was signed by another European team last year.

To say that "Steen's better because he plays in a different league" is baseless. Kesler's performing well in his environment, and you can't just go out and say "oh Steen's better because playing in Europe's better than playing in the AHL".

I'm not going to say Kesler's better or worse than Steen, because as I already said, I don't know. But also as I said, Canuck fans are very excited about how Kesler is coming along because he's performed very well at each level he's been asked to play at, and this year--where he's been one of the standouts for the Moose--is no exception. He may not have the offensive touch of some other guys he was drafted with, but to completely dismiss his offensive potential is a bit closed minded. There's been plenty of guys projected as grinders who have put together strong seasons.

Anyway, there's my rant for the evening.

~Canucklehead~

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01-08-2005, 12:01 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
From Internet hockey database. The 2003 draft.



Now, be serious Canuck fans, is there anyone taken after Kesler that you would rather have?
Oh course I'd rather have Richards or Perry (that's it, rather have Kesler than the others), but does that matter?

What in the world is wrong with people? Nobody here is boasting that Kesler will be the next top scorer in the NHL. Can't you just accept the fact that Kesler's just doing way more than expected, and has improved by miles since his draft year?

Next thing, someone's gonna bring up that Bergeron was picked in the 2nd round after Kesler. Give me a break.

I swear it's gotta be human nature to step down on a opposing team player at every oppurtunity they get. Not only on ice, but in the real world as well.

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Old
01-08-2005, 12:13 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
From Internet hockey database. The 2003 draft.



Now, be serious Canuck fans, is there anyone taken after Kesler that you would rather have?

The only player there who tempts me is Mike Richards, and Kesler is pretty much a less gritty version of Richards with better skating ability. Perry's too slow to make it as a finesse player in the NHL, Anthony Stewart doesn't know that the NHL rink extends past the opposing team's blueline, Jeff Tambellini doesn't really have anything going for him, and Brian Boyle I know nothing about, which probably means he's worthless

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01-08-2005, 01:45 AM
  #68
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I agree with Chaos that 30 something games is too small an amount to make a judgement on Kesler's future. Just like it's too soon to say whether or not Kesler was taken too high in the 2003 draft.

That being said, why isn't his scoring pace now a valid argument in his favour? I was lurking here when the last top prospects list was being posted and I (don't ask me why) read through the entire Kesler vs. Steen argument. The arguments against him then were not merely that he didn't have top-flight offensive talent (something nobody denies) but there were people saying he had NO offensive talent, had NO chance of ever even being a decent second liner, that he had hands of stone and that players like him were a dime a dozen.

So, here we are nearly halfway through the AHL season and Kesler is in the top 20 scoring in the AHL, top 3 on his team and shows no signs of slowing down. Is it not fair to think that maybe some of those opinions should be re-evaluated? Not necessarily changed completely since as I said to start with, 30 something games is not enough to prove anything. But it surely should be enough for the people who made those comments about him to take a second-look at him and be more open to the idea that maybe he has more talent than they gave him credit for. That doesn't appear to be happening, hence my point in saying sarcastically that when it comes to Kesler, stats mean nothing. If his accomplishments don't fit with popular opinion, they're ignored. Look, nobody's saying Kesler's a future superstar, but I would have thought his success this season would have upgraded him just a little bit from the "hands of stone" cateogory some of you had him in.

Just to give you an example to show where I'm coming from here, you might recall the Kyle Wellwood thread that The Messenger started. Well, that thread got me interested and made me take a closer look at Wellwood. Having done that, I can say his skating and defensive play are better than reported and I've since formed the opinion he has a pretty decent shot at making the NHL. The Messenger made a good point that prospects should be judged on their current accomplishments, not always on past assessments. That's pretty much the point I'm trying to get across here...in a rather long-winded kind of way.

When it comes to people's opinions on Wellwood, it seems he often suffers from "low draft pick" syndrome. Forgive me if I'm out of line here, but having read through the outrage that ensued when people thought Kesler was going to be in the top 25 prospects again this year, I wonder if he's the victim of a backlash from him being 23rd on the list the year before. I don't think anyone does it purposefully, but maybe there is a little overcompensation going on here?

Having said that, I haven't posted here very much at all and I don't know any of you personally, so I won't presume to know anyone's reason for the opinion they hold. I just thought I'd leave that out there for consideration.

errm...anyways I'll just step off this soapbox here before I break it.

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01-08-2005, 10:39 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
From Internet hockey database. The 2003 draft.



Now, be serious Canuck fans, is there anyone taken after Kesler that you would rather have?
Only Richards. I'm not really sold on any of the others.

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01-08-2005, 02:25 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Ironic how me being a fan of Steen and Colaiacovo negates anything positive I have to say about the two... but there are a dozen Vancouver fans choosing Ryan Kesler over Steen because he's the 2nd youngest scorer in the AHL... yet, it would be taboo to say that their opinions are pure bias and mean squat.

EDIT: He's actually the third youngest in the top 20... Brown and Staal.
You are wrong.

The posts were made yesterday and yesterday, Kesler was the 2nd youngest. Staal scored a couple after the posts were made, so when those posts were made, the information was correct.

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01-08-2005, 02:27 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Kesler has 33 points in 34 games, but Brown is younger, and has 36 points in 36 games. By the Canuck fans logic, Brown will be better.

Steen plays in a league with men, while the AHL is a league filled with young players and journeymen, but Kesler has more competition because he is a Canuck prospect.

Bias!
You're biased if you think the SEL is a lot better than the AHL.
Obviously the overall talent level in the SEL is higher but I think AHL stats give a better indication of a prospect's ability to produce in the NHL. I also think the AHL is slightly more competitive than the SEL because of the attention to defense, intense physical play and the length of a full season.

And yes, I do think Brown will be a better player than Ryan Kesler.

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01-08-2005, 02:31 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
From Internet hockey database. The 2003 draft.



Now, be serious Canuck fans, is there anyone taken after Kesler that you would rather have?
Mike Richards and he is the only one who I would take.

Anthony Stewart would be nice, but at this point I think Kesler is more proven. Corey Perry was a huge let-down at the WJC's and I am not sold on him at all. And I'd definitely take Kesler over Tambellini and Boyle.

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01-08-2005, 02:48 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
You're biased if you think the SEL is a lot better than the AHL.
Obviously the overall talent level in the SEL is higher but I think AHL stats give a better indication of a prospect's ability to produce in the NHL. I also think the AHL is slightly more competitive than the SEL because of the attention to defense, intense physical play and the length of a full season.

And yes, I do think Brown will be a better player than Ryan Kesler.
How am I biased? I couldn't care any less for both the Leafs and the Canucks, yet just because my opinion differs from yours, I'm biased? WTF??? Nice logic there.

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01-08-2005, 03:00 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
How am I biased? I couldn't care any less for both the Leafs and the Canucks, yet just because my opinion differs from yours, I'm biased? WTF??? Nice logic there.
You are biased because:
*Your opinion is that Steen is better.
*You support your opinion by trying to belittle the AHL's competition by saying "Steen plays in a league with men, while the AHL is a league filled with young players and journeymen," when in fact, the AHL is viewed by many as a more competitive league than the SEL and the AHL gives a better indication of a player's ability to succeed in the NHL.

SEL has better overall talent. No use in denying that.
The AHL however pays more attention to defense and emphasizes more on intense physical play. The AHL also uses coaches who adhere to the NHL style of coaching and the length of the long AHL season also makes it more competitive.

Overall, I say AHL stats give a better indication of a player's ability to produce in the NHL as opposed to the SEL, where some stars come to North America and never reach the same relative level of success.

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01-08-2005, 03:12 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
That is a nice little spin you are trying to use, but thinking about the money in the long run wasn't why I picked Kesler over the guys you have in your internet handle. Kesler is a better prospect then Steen and Colaiacovo. I am not talking who would fit in the Flames better (Steen probably would) I am talking about which is the better player and who will have higher NHL success.

But since you mentioned it, last year the Flames payed Jarome Iginla 7.5 million and had Roman Turek for 5 million. I don't think Colaiacovo in all his glory is ever going to make that much. But thanks for the concern.

Kesler > Colaiacovo
Kesler > Steen

Kesler is the type of prospect I love, gritty two-way guys with offence who had a buttload of leadership.
Kesler being such a good prospect? I thought the HF had ratings that we could look at when in doubt, Kesler 7.0 and Cola 8A and Steen 8B... And whats taking soo long for Keslers 7D rating to come out?


Im sorry, im a Kesler hater and leaf fan. Yet even through my thickhead i can tell either one of them is better then Kesler.

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