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Old
01-08-2005, 03:22 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittles.TML
Kesler being such a good prospect? I thought the HF had ratings that we could look at when in doubt, Kesler 7.0 and Cola 8A and Steen 8B... And whats taking soo long for Keslers 7D rating to come out?


Im sorry, im a Kesler hater and leaf fan. Yet even through my thickhead i can tell either one of them is better then Kesler.
By your logic, this is the:

The same reason why Robbie Schremp 8.5 B is just as good as Evgeny Malkin 8.5 B and Ryan Sutuer 8.5 B?

And Jeff Deslauriers 8.5 B is >> Marek Schwartz 8.0 and Hannu Toivanen 8.0 A?

And I suppose The Messanger and Leafaholix must be such fools for suggesting Kyle Wellwood 7.0 C is better a prospect than Chris Higgin 8.0 B.

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01-08-2005, 09:46 PM
  #77
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I love how that Carlo/Steen fan is so sure that Carlo and Steen are better. Its laughable in my mind. I think comparing prospects is very hard, and since all three are very close It would be near impossible to confidently declare one over the other so surely, like Carlosteen has. Basically - NONE OF US KNOW, STOP TRYING TO PRETENT YOU CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE!

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01-09-2005, 12:31 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
I love how that Carlo/Steen fan is so sure that Carlo and Steen are better. Its laughable in my mind. I think comparing prospects is very hard, and since all three are very close It would be near impossible to confidently declare one over the other so surely, like Carlosteen has. Basically - NONE OF US KNOW, STOP TRYING TO PRETENT YOU CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE!
No, we are talking about the present but the future will be the same.

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01-09-2005, 12:36 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
And I suppose The Messanger and Leafaholix must be such fools for suggesting Kyle Wellwood 7.0 C is better a prospect than Chris Higgin 8.0 B.
If we use your "AHL points are very important" argument, then most certainly.

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01-09-2005, 03:16 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
By your logic, this is the:

The same reason why Robbie Schremp 8.5 B is just as good as Evgeny Malkin 8.5 B and Ryan Sutuer 8.5 B?

And Jeff Deslauriers 8.5 B is >> Marek Schwartz 8.0 and Hannu Toivanen 8.0 A?
.
The Oilers overrating of prospect is a whole nother issue.

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01-10-2005, 10:38 AM
  #81
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Mike Richards is the only player as well that I would take over Kesler in those next five picks listed earlier. Tambellini may very well be a bust, Perry may struggle to make the NHL on a full-time basis, and Stewart has classic power forward syndrome (that is, struggle his 1st few years in the league before getting it together). Although I would rank Stewart's NHL potential closer to Isbister than Bertuzzi.

I'll actually admit that Steen still has higher potential than Kesler. They obviously can't really be compared until playing in the same league, but Steen has more offensive upside and can still likely thrive in a checking role as well. Don't get me started on Colaiacovo however. He's vastly overrated.

I don't think most other Canucks fans posting here believe that Kesler is going to blossom into a scoring forward necessarily, it's just that we're excited at everything he brings to the table. He may always stay as a 3rd line center, but that doesn't mean he'll receive 3rd line minutes. This is a 20 minute a night type player here (shutdown center, premier penalty killer, captain material, 40-50 point potential). What's the fascination with slotting players into set line schemes anyways? I'm sure most Devils fans would rank Madden much higher than some of their top six forwards for instance. It's not just the points, but all the intangibles that a player brings to the table. For that reason (along with the Canucks' horrible 1st round drafting record recently) I'm ecstatic with Kesler being taken in the 1st round.

As for Kesler's sophomore pro season point output to date, it's interesting to say the least. Keep in mind that not only does Kesler not play on a line with King and Sarno, but he doesn't even play on the #1 powerplay unit (Goren/King/Sarno). Most of his points are 5 on 5. These points also come while checking the opposing top line.

I wouldn't get too carried away about Kesler's points however, as it's just a reflection of how mature a player and how quickly adaptable he is at each level he plays. I'll be the first to predict he won't surpass 50-55 points in his NHL career, but the fact that he is money in the bank to be a surefire impact NHL player justifies his 1st round pick. How many 1st rounders each season fail to even crack an NHL roster on a permanent basis?

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01-10-2005, 02:21 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rageinthecage
I wouldn't get too carried away about Kesler's points however, as it's just a reflection of how mature a player and how quickly adaptable he is at each level he plays. I'll be the first to predict he won't surpass 50-55 points in his NHL career, but the fact that he is money in the bank to be a surefire impact NHL player justifies his 1st round pick. How many 1st rounders each season fail to even crack an NHL roster on a permanent basis?
I agree. Ceiling aside I'm just glad Kesler is probably about as sure fire a prospect as you could have, he's almost assured of a full time job in the NHL and would possibly be there now if not for the lock out. That being said I'm glad he's getting time to work on his offensive game in the AHL, another year of that might do him good and help him translate some offensive game to the NHL when he again steps on the ice for the Canucks. As for the Steen and Cola debate, well the only thing I've seen of Steen is that fancy move some Leaf fans have in their avatars. So I can't really comment there. I've always been underwhelmed with Cola, I hear such huge things but never quite see where all the hype is coming from (keep in mind I've seen him play 'maybe' 20 times at the most over a year and a half period). Kesler's leadership and poise at every level he has played at is another appealing feature he possesses.

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01-10-2005, 09:36 PM
  #83
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Nonis said he would be for sure in the NHL if it weren't in a lockout.

As for everyone else's debate... I've seen Carlo enough in WJC play to say that he's overrated and shouldn't even qualify as a defenseman because he concentrates too much on offense. Now that being said I haven't seen him play much since the 2 WJC he played in, but honestly, if he were any good I would have heard something about him.

I'm going to try and be a non-biased Canucks fan here... Kesler is by far the Canucks best prospect. And no Koltsov isn't better. Kesler can skate, he can hit, he doesn't get knocked down this season like he did last season, he has an uncanny ability to read a play in any given situation, can score, and most of all is a born leader. Last year in the WJC he was a man playing in a boys' game and he was the leader of that US team, regardless of who scored the goals. Now back with the Moose, I haven't seen one player that plays as hard as Kesler does night in and night out on the Moose other than Jimmy Roy, but Kesler isn't the same kind of player Jimmy is. Kesler is the ideal two way forward. You can count on him to be back in your own zone trying to get the puck away from the opposing team and away from either Flaherty or Auld, he's the cornerstone of the Moose PK, he can chip in a goal every now and then, and his play is awfully similar to that of an early Trevor Linden.

As for him being better than Steen, I wouldn't know. I've never seen Steen play.

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01-10-2005, 10:22 PM
  #84
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This argument (With Carlo/Steen) is completely useless. He will continue to point out that he has seen Carlo and steen more, pronouncing himself as the only eligible judge of there play even know he has an obvious bias. Quality over Quantity. Just because Carlo/Steen has seen them play more, does not mean hes is a better judger of there future success. That said, Carlo/Steen will hypocritically judge Kesler, pronouncing both Carlo and Steen better then him. What Carlo/Steen has quickly forgotten is that his majore argument is that we are not fit to judge Carlo and Steen, but of course he is fit to judge Kesler.

Carlo/Steen's obvious bias and hypocrosy make him a poor man to debate with.

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01-11-2005, 09:40 PM
  #85
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Ryan Kesler scored two more goals tonight and now he has 18 goals on the season.

He is tied for 9th in AHL goal-scoring leaders lists.

And of the ten top goal-scorers in the AHL, Ryan Kesler is the youngest.

Out of those top ten goal-scorers, Kesler is tied for the 2nd lowest for powerplay goals as he only has 5. He is great at scoring five on five so "he only scores during special teams is not a good argument."


Last edited by sunb: 01-11-2005 at 09:46 PM.
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01-11-2005, 10:50 PM
  #86
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Kesler is not on the first, or even sometimes on the second unit, of the PP.

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01-11-2005, 10:57 PM
  #87
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My Kesler jersey is being made as we speak!
I am loving this draft pick...man the offense he is producing has been suprising...The Canuck management must be grinning ear to ear with the way he is playing...most forget he is still so young....Can't wait until he gets to show his stuff in the big time.

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01-11-2005, 11:05 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Whoever is questioning Steen's size must not have seen him play the other night on Sportsnet. He's listed at 6'0, 183 lbs... but he's very muscular and has a tremendous presence physically.

Size is not an issue with this guy.
You can't really say size isn't an issue until he plays in North America... but I doubt it will slow him down. He's too good. Like urself I am also expecting a lot from him, though my opinion is also biased as he was once a teammate of mine and I grew up idolizing his dad.

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01-11-2005, 11:13 PM
  #89
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And about Kesler... he could be a solid 3rd liner today... give him 2-4 years and you easily got a top 6 frwd in today's watered down version of an NHL where big strong players like Kesler thrive.

I''ve seen him play over a dozen times this season and he's consistanly one of the best players on the ice in every aspect of the game. His improvement over the last two seasons has been incredible. According to a recent interview he still wants to get bigger (was up to 240lbs! of muscle in the off season) and wants to get faster so he can beat players to the outside. It seems he has the right idea and a guy his age can still have a ton of untapped potential.

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01-12-2005, 12:06 AM
  #90
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6'2, 240 is abit much isn't it ?
I dare say abit of that was waterweight . . .

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01-12-2005, 01:29 AM
  #91
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He was never up to 240.


Quote:
HF: Obviously itís next to impossible to put on that kind of weight during the season.
RK: Oh yeah, I started the season at 225 and I think I lost about 15 pounds since the beginning of the year. I was too heavy, it was muscle but I was a little too heavy for my legs.

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01-12-2005, 09:28 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
Ryan Kesler scored two more goals tonight and now he has 18 goals on the season.

He is tied for 9th in AHL goal-scoring leaders lists.

And of the ten top goal-scorers in the AHL, Ryan Kesler is the youngest.

Out of those top ten goal-scorers, Kesler is tied for the 2nd lowest for powerplay goals as he only has 5. He is great at scoring five on five so "he only scores during special teams is not a good argument."
How about that he is playing on a line with two veterans.

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01-12-2005, 09:55 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Plenty of players score a lot in the AHL and go on to be no more than 3rd liners in the NHL(Madden immediately comes to mind). I think you are taking too much of his current stats and ignoring what was said of him by scouts in the past.
I know this comment is very late, but if Ryan Kesler could turn into the kind of player John Madden is, I would be thrilled. Give me an elite 3rd line center any day over all but the top 25 or 35 scorers in the league and the true all around #1 quality defensemen that either dominates in his own end or plays top quality defense while having offensive flash.

Put another way, there is a reason why Madden just signed a contract that would be paying him $4.6 million if there had been a season under the old CBA. . . .

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01-12-2005, 10:06 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
I agree with Chaos that 30 something games is too small an amount to make a judgement on Kesler's future. Just like it's too soon to say whether or not Kesler was taken too high in the 2003 draft.

That being said, why isn't his scoring pace now a valid argument in his favour? I was lurking here when the last top prospects list was being posted and I (don't ask me why) read through the entire Kesler vs. Steen argument. The arguments against him then were not merely that he didn't have top-flight offensive talent (something nobody denies) but there were people saying he had NO offensive talent, had NO chance of ever even being a decent second liner, that he had hands of stone and that players like him were a dime a dozen.

So, here we are nearly halfway through the AHL season and Kesler is in the top 20 scoring in the AHL, top 3 on his team and shows no signs of slowing down. Is it not fair to think that maybe some of those opinions should be re-evaluated? Not necessarily changed completely since as I said to start with, 30 something games is not enough to prove anything. But it surely should be enough for the people who made those comments about him to take a second-look at him and be more open to the idea that maybe he has more talent than they gave him credit for. That doesn't appear to be happening, hence my point in saying sarcastically that when it comes to Kesler, stats mean nothing. If his accomplishments don't fit with popular opinion, they're ignored. Look, nobody's saying Kesler's a future superstar, but I would have thought his success this season would have upgraded him just a little bit from the "hands of stone" cateogory some of you had him in.

Just to give you an example to show where I'm coming from here, you might recall the Kyle Wellwood thread that The Messenger started. Well, that thread got me interested and made me take a closer look at Wellwood. Having done that, I can say his skating and defensive play are better than reported and I've since formed the opinion he has a pretty decent shot at making the NHL. The Messenger made a good point that prospects should be judged on their current accomplishments, not always on past assessments. That's pretty much the point I'm trying to get across here...in a rather long-winded kind of way.

When it comes to people's opinions on Wellwood, it seems he often suffers from "low draft pick" syndrome. Forgive me if I'm out of line here, but having read through the outrage that ensued when people thought Kesler was going to be in the top 25 prospects again this year, I wonder if he's the victim of a backlash from him being 23rd on the list the year before. I don't think anyone does it purposefully, but maybe there is a little overcompensation going on here?

Having said that, I haven't posted here very much at all and I don't know any of you personally, so I won't presume to know anyone's reason for the opinion they hold. I just thought I'd leave that out there for consideration.

errm...anyways I'll just step off this soapbox here before I break it.
This was a great post.

I would add one thing: the 30 odd games Kesler's played in Manitoba while being close to NHL-ready (he might be in Vancouver this year) are a lot better indicator of his ability than the handful of WJC games Kesler 2 years ago (before being drafted) and the other limited games that those scouting Kesler to have a low ceiling ever saw.

Scouts make judgments based on limited information and projection. This of course includes the Canucks--how many times did a Canuck scout (or any other NHL scout) actually see any of the guys they take before they are drafted?

So I find the criticism of the small smaple size of Kesler's game this season quite bizarre. Surely we want to see more, extended ability. And that more information is better than less. But to let old conclusions based on less and older information color where a prospect is TODAY is pretty damn silly.

Or is Martin Havlat still a late first round talent in a very weak draft and Alexander Daigle still the next Lemieux. . . .

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Old
01-12-2005, 03:22 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
How about that he is playing on a line with two veterans.
Players like Lee Goren and Jeff Heerma are hardly veterans.

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01-12-2005, 03:34 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
How about that he is playing on a line with two veterans.
Grasping at straws a tad? You could say that about virtually any player in any league. "Hejduk's only good because of Forsberg" blah blah...

Why can't people just accept that Kesler is performing better than expected on his team? 18 goals and 17 assists for 35 points in 37 games and a +17, and everyone wants to step on him and continue saying "he's just gonna be a grinder". He's got more dimension to his game then that...as I said before, he's performed well at every level he's been in: the collegiate leagues, the World Juniors, and now the AHL. Is he better than *insert prospect name here*, I don't know, but he's giving Canuck fans reason to be optimistic about his future as a two-way forward in the NHL who could possibly pot 15-25 goals in a year while playing sound defensive hockey, being a good leader, and a good physical game.

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01-12-2005, 04:18 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
Players like Lee Goren and Jeff Heerma are hardly veterans.
They are both in their 5th pro season, that's a veteran.

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01-12-2005, 04:28 PM
  #98
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After reading through this thread, I found a few things funny.

Carl'o Steens comment about how Kesler only played 28 games in the NHL in his first season so that means he sucks for some reason.. yea.. how is mr. Coliacovo doin with his NHL games eh?

There aren't many building up Kesler to be some sort of superstar, they are just saying that he has more than 3rd line potential which he is proving right now. Time will tell for everything of course but too say Kesler is still only going to be a 3rd liner would be a bit of a stretch at this point.

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01-12-2005, 04:30 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
They are both in their 5th pro season, that's a veteran.
That is a bit weak isn't it?

Jeff Heerema only has 154 games of AHL experience prior to this season.
And Lee Goren only has 255 games of AHL experience prior to this season.

I would hardly call them veterans as the AHL is also a semi-pro league with many players with 500+, 600+ an 700+ games.

You might as well call Henrik and Daniel Sedin both NHL veterans too as they both have played 4 full seasons with a combined 630+ NHL games.

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01-12-2005, 04:38 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
That is a bit weak isn't it?

Jeff Heerema only has 154 games of AHL experience prior to this season.
And Lee Goren only has 255 games of AHL experience prior to this season.

I would hardly call them veterans as the AHL is also a semi-pro league with many players with 500+, 600+ an 700+ games.

Or else you might as well call Henrik and Daniel Sedin both NHL veterans too as they both have played 4 full seasons with a combined 630+ NHL games.
I see you have, for the sake of your own argument, ignored IHL and NHL games played.

It's a fact of life that these types of guys have an advantage over younger though more talented players who are just coming into the league. Kesler benefits statistically from being on a line with two guys like that. Just like Kyle Wellwood has from being on a line with Druken and Ling.

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