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Kesler

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Old
01-12-2005, 05:40 PM
  #101
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Quotes on Kesler:

"He's been a horse. It's that simple.", Manitoba Moose GM Craig Heisinger

"Kes does everything; penalty kills, power play, five-on-five, at every critical point of the game. He's a heck of a player if this NHL ever gets going again. He'll play a lot of years. He does everything well: he can shoot, pass, he can make plays, he's strong in the corners, there's not much that he doesn't do. I'm happy to be playing with him.", Manitoba Moose Forward Lee Goren

"Kesler draws all the toughest checking assignments. He's the type of guy that coaches love to have on their side. He's quietly a dominant player at that position. He can skate and I think he's just going to get better. I think his skating will get better and he's adjusting to a larger role on this hockey club. His minutes are way, way up. He plays in all the key situations, I'm worried I play him too much. He's a strong kid, very strong. He surprises a lot of people with his strength.", Manitoba Moose Head Coach Randy Carlyle

"I think if people watch him closely, he's a very smart player. He's very young but it's like he's played in the league for seven or eight years, it seems. He just knows his defensive responsibilities, he's good on draws, and I think for how smart he is, he's always in the right position to create scoring chances for him. He's already proven he can score this year. It's a really big thing about him. He might go about his business quietly but he's a very intelligent player on the ice and that's what you're looking for in key situations. In a one-goal game, you want him out on the ice because he's going to win you a faceoff and he's going to know what to do if you have to battle it out in your own end.", Manitoba Moose Captain Nolan Baumgartner

"From what we saw in glimpses last year, the expectations were fairly high. If nothing else he's proved to people, for a young guy, his poise on the defensive side of the puck was really good last year. That's unusual for a young player. But to show this year that there's some offence to go with that -- at a young age it's pretty impressive.", Manitoba Moose GM Craig Heisinger

Just to name a few.

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Old
01-12-2005, 07:08 PM
  #102
cj
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Well, yah but you'd expect people associated with the Moose to say good things about one of their own.

Regarding Kesler benefiting by playing with two veterans. Sure he has. There's plenty of young players who have benefited by playing with older guys who can show them the ropes. There's nothing out of the ordinary about that. But if you're saying Kesler's production this year is solely because he's playing between Goren and Heerema, I'd beg to differ.

Let's look at some stats shall we?

Jeff Heerema:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=31809

Lee Goren:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=28868

You could argue that Lee Goren helps Kesler's stats since it appears he's a fairly good AHL scorer and he's having a very good season this year, but Jeff Heerema? His career high is 70 points in the 01-02 season and in 02-03 he was producing at just under a ppg in the AHL but since then, 27 points in 41 games with Hartford and this season he has a grand total of 8 goals, 10 assists in 37 games. If anything, he appears to be a player on the decline. So unless Lee Goren somehow makes the second line run all by itself, I'd say Kesler himself has a fair bit to do with his own stats.


Last edited by cj: 01-12-2005 at 08:05 PM.
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Old
01-12-2005, 07:28 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
I see you have, for the sake of your own argument, ignored IHL and NHL games played.

It's a fact of life that these types of guys have an advantage over younger though more talented players who are just coming into the league. Kesler benefits statistically from being on a line with two guys like that. Just like Kyle Wellwood has from being on a line with Druken and Ling.
I would hardly call them veterans even if you equate their IHL and NHL experience.

Jeff Heerema has 73 games of IHL experience and 32 games of NHL experience.
Lee Goren has 37 games of NHL experience.

If you think that makes them better linemates than other 1st or 2nd liners in the AHL simply by the virtue of their "veteran experience," then you're sorely mistaken.

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Old
01-12-2005, 07:54 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
I would hardly call them veterans even if you equate their IHL and NHL experience.

Jeff Heerema has 73 games of IHL experience and 32 games of NHL experience.
Lee Goren has 37 games of NHL experience.

If you think that makes them better linemates than other 1st or 2nd liners in the AHL simply by the virtue of their "veteran experience," then you're sorely mistaken.
By the AHL definition of the word veteran, i.e 260 games of any pro experience, they are.

And, they are a benefit to Kesler and his numbers no matter how much you try to discount the fact.

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01-12-2005, 08:33 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
By the AHL definition of the word veteran, i.e 260 games of any pro experience, they are.

And, they are a benefit to Kesler and his numbers no matter how much you try to discount the fact.
Heerema has 8 goals, 10 assists in 37 games. How exactly is that inflating Kesler's stats, at all? If anything, Kesler is making Heerema look better.

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01-12-2005, 08:38 PM
  #106
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I repeat; saying Kesler is only good because of his linemates is like saying "well gee, Hejduk was only good because he played with Forsberg, Jagr was only good because of Lemieux, Bertuzzi's only good because of Naslund" and so on and so forth. Yes, having good linemates help, and there is no "I" in team--but Kesler has created a lot of his own success.

Someone else commented that yes, his teammates and people in the organization will say good things about him. But that wasn't the case with guys like Fedor Fedorov, who they often blasted for his play and attitude. They have nothing but good things to say about Kesler. How can you ignore 18 goals, 17 assists for 35 points in 37 games with a +17? Or previous to that, how about 6 goals and 4 assists for 10 points in 13 games with Team USA at the World Juniors, as well as a gold medal?

No one is trying to say that Kesler is going to be an all star in the NHL. However, his play at every level is reason for optimism. He played 28 NHL games as a 19-year-old and didn't look out of place; he got rave reviews from his teammates, including veteran Trevor Linden who has sure seen his share of promising young talents.

Kesler is surpassing expectations at every level. I just think that people who pigeonhole him as a "career 3rd liner" are being stubborn and refusing to accept that he might have 15-25 goal potential and the ability to be a solid two-way, 2nd and/or 3rd line player. He's been better than expected, so why not be optimistic? And why does everyone else get so down on him for the fans' optimism? Because a fan suggested he might be on par than or better than another prospect?

Yeesh.

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Old
01-12-2005, 08:41 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane
Heerema has 8 goals, 10 assists in 37 games. How exactly is that inflating Kesler's stats, at all? If anything, Kesler is making Heerema look better.
It isn't all the time where all three guys are scoring, one guy is doing other things to help that don't show up in his stats. I don't know what the situation is there but those things happen.

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01-12-2005, 08:46 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucklehead17
I repeat; saying Kesler is only good because of his linemates is like saying "well gee, Hejduk was only good because he played with Forsberg, Jagr was only good because of Lemieux, Bertuzzi's only good because of Naslund" and so on and so forth.
No but you can say that Warren Young was only good when he played with Lemieux, BJ MacDonald with Gretzky. Hell, Jonus Hoglund scored 30 goals on Sundin's line.

It happens. And something that has to be taken into account when assessing his stats.

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01-12-2005, 08:48 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
No but you can say that Warren Young was only good when he played with Lemieux, BJ MacDonald with Gretzky. Hell, Jonus Hoglund scored 30 goals on Sundin's line.

It happens. And something that has to be taken into account when assessing his stats.
Comparing Gretzky and Lemieux to Heerema and Goren?

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Old
01-12-2005, 09:22 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
By the AHL definition of the word veteran, i.e 260 games of any pro experience, they are.

And, they are a benefit to Kesler and his numbers no matter how much you try to discount the fact.
You might as well say every player out there benefits from their linemates. Even Yashin and Parrish benefits from Shawn Bates.

I don't think Jeff Heerema and Lee Goren are "bonafide veterans" by any stretch of the imagination as both had less than 300 combined (IHL, NHL and AHL) games of experience at the start of the season.

And EVEN IF they are veterans, they don't inflate Kesler's numbers because Lee Goren and Jeff Heerema are not better than any other two players from an AHL team's top line*.


* = While Kesler, Heerema and Goren play on the second line but Kesler has 1st line numbers so contingent to the argument, we'd have to compare Goren and Heerema to other AHL 1st liners to see whether or not Kesler's numbers are inflated.

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Old
01-12-2005, 09:26 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
No but you can say that Warren Young was only good when he played with Lemieux, BJ MacDonald with Gretzky. Hell, Jonus Hoglund scored 30 goals on Sundin's line.

It happens. And something that has to be taken into account when assessing his stats.

That doesn't make sense when Kesler has the most points on his line.


Kesler has more points than Goren and Heerema just as Lemieux had more points than Young and Gretzky had more points than MacDonald.

If Kesler had less points than Goren and Heerema then you can make a solid argument. Otherwise you're trying to say the lower point-producer benefitted the higher point-producer. Did Hoglund benefit Sundin's numbers?

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01-12-2005, 10:49 PM
  #112
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I can't believe Jeff Heerema is getting credited with inflating another player's stats.

Of course Kesler's linemates help. It's a team game. And it's fair to say Goren does help improve Kesler's stats, but Heerema?? The one who's scoring at about 1/2 the pace Kesler is? That Heerema?

Could someone please confirm for me what a great player this guy's been this season because I must have missed it.

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01-12-2005, 11:01 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
No but you can say that Warren Young was only good when he played with Lemieux, BJ MacDonald with Gretzky. Hell, Jonus Hoglund scored 30 goals on Sundin's line.

It happens. And something that has to be taken into account when assessing his stats.
What's your beef with Kesler? 1st round draft pick, performs well at every level he plays, produces more than expected, gets rave reviews from his coaches, managers and teammates at every level, and here you are grasping for straws and reaching for reasons to put him down?

Kesler's been one of the best forwards for the Moose at both ends of the ice. Why is his offensive production so hard for others to swallow?

And as I said before; there is no "I" in team, of course players benefit from their linemates. But to say all of Kesler's offensive pizazz is simply because he plays with Lee Goren and the mighty Jeff Heerema? Really reaching, IMO.

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Old
01-12-2005, 11:05 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris

That doesn't make sense when Kesler has the most points on his line.


Kesler has more points than Goren and Heerema just as Lemieux had more points than Young and Gretzky had more points than MacDonald.

If Kesler had less points than Goren and Heerema then you can make a solid argument. Otherwise you're trying to say the lower point-producer benefitted the higher point-producer. Did Hoglund benefit Sundin's numbers?

The cart (Heerema) is pushing the horse (Kesler) up the hill and not the other way round.

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01-13-2005, 12:23 AM
  #115
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Ohio State couldve used him last year in the playoffs.

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01-13-2005, 01:09 AM
  #116
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So it'd be fair for me to say that Jason Spezza is only leading AHL scoring because of the contribution from veteran linemates?

Denis Hamel is doing all the work. He's padding Spezza's stats.

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01-13-2005, 01:22 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane
So it'd be fair for me to say that Jason Spezza is only leading AHL scoring because of the contribution from veteran linemates?

Denis Hamel is doing all the work. He's padding Spezza's stats.
That Spezza guy is such a talentless bum, he'd be lucky to get past the 3rd line of an NHL club without stars like Hamel propping him up.

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01-13-2005, 01:47 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by me2
That Spezza guy is such a talentless bum, he'd be lucky to get past the 3rd line of an NHL club without stars like Hamel propping him up.
Hamel's got five defenders on him all the time. All the time. Just like Heerema. They're just that damn good.

Spezza and Kesler are nothing without Hamel and Heerema.

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01-13-2005, 02:51 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
I can't believe Jeff Heerema is getting credited with inflating another player's stats.
Er... Heerema is about as useless as the come, he reminds me of Jan Hlavac, except much better defensively. Heerema has found himself on the 3rd and 4th line many nights and sometimes scratched.

I actually think the Moose suffer from lack of depth. Green should be on the 3rd line with smith and Roy. But they have nobody to play right wing for Sarno and nobody to play left wing for Kesler. Nobody adaquate anyway.

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01-13-2005, 03:00 AM
  #120
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^Which is fair enough. And jokes about Heerema aside, don't get me wrong, Goren is a great linemate for Kesler. But Kesler has created a lot of his own success. Like I said, you can't just ignore the ravings of his teammates, coaches and managers. It's not like any of them are saying "wow, I can't believe he's playing that well" or "I didn't think he had it in him". It's all he's a horse, he's been creating his own chances, he's been intense, he's been a leader, he's played very well at both ends of the ice, and so on. He generates his own success.

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01-13-2005, 05:15 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
I agree with Chaos that 30 something games is too small an amount to make a judgement on Kesler's future. Just like it's too soon to say whether or not Kesler was taken too high in the 2003 draft.
.

Except that is what "Chaos" did. He made a complete judgement on Keslers future and then got pissy when challanged to give any credible reasons for his opinion. I'd be annoyed at that kind of behaviour directed at any player.

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01-13-2005, 09:54 AM
  #122
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You guys that think Kesler isn't going to amount to anything need to actually see this guy play. Majority of the time it's Kesler doing all the damn work in the offensive zone. He goes in, forechecks, gets the puck and gets a decent scoring chance majority of the time. He does everything imaginable and he thrives. He is most likely the only player that gives any effort in the offensive zone when the entire team is having a bad game, and he's one player that rarely has an off night. He is by far the best two way forward prospect the Canucks have had in a very long time. The management purposely went out and got players that wouldn't be cancers in the dressing room and that would help out on the ice, unlike in the past couple years. The Moose are stacked. They've never had a better team, and Kesler is one of those reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if the Moose win their division. Everyone thought they would drop off eventually, but they haven't. Not to mention, they have one of the best coaches IMO in the AHL. Carlyle knows how to get his players fired up and he gets on their ***** when they're doing stupid things. Unlike the Canucks head coach, who just lets a weak goalie let in crap goal after crap goal because he has no idea that a backup is used for those type of scenarios.

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01-13-2005, 10:36 AM
  #123
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Wow, hit a nerve! Anyone actually notice that I never said anything bad about Kesler?

If veterans weren't a factor one way or another then the league wouldn't have a rule about how many can be dressed per game.

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01-13-2005, 11:36 AM
  #124
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You haven't directly said anything bad about Kesler; you've just been insinuating that his good play is entirely because he plays with a veteran on his wing in Lee Goren, and that's just untrue. I pointed out the quotes from his teammates(including Goren), his coach and his manager, which pretty much debunks your theory that he's just riding shotgun to a hot veteran.

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01-13-2005, 11:44 AM
  #125
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Goren obviously helps with Kesler's stats as he's a strong, gritty, talented veteran with a scoring touch. Keep in mind however that Kesler (at the moment anyways) is a point or two ahead of Goren in scoring. Also consider that Goren plays on the 1st powerplay unit w/ King, Sarno, Baumgartner, and Mojzis (not to mention Koltsov up until a couple weeks ago). Kesler plays approx. 30-45 seconds on the 2nd unit w/ Heerema, Green, Bieksa, and Huskins. Not quite the same talent nor minutes is it?

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