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Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): 2012 Regular Season (Utter-Lee Hopeless Part 2)

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Old
07-31-2012, 11:58 AM
  #626
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Originally Posted by Stonehands77 View Post
Looks like the Blanton to Baltimore trade talk is dying down too. Disappointing in that...I'd like to see them trade as many expensive pieces as they can and look at what they've got in the minors.
According to the Phillies site, the Phillies wanted the O's to cover the $3 million the Phillies owe Blanton. O's said that they wanted the Phillies to pay some of it because they don't want to pay $3 million for a rental. The Phillies weren't willing to pay unless the O's offered more.

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com...s_phi&c_id=phi

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07-31-2012, 11:59 AM
  #627
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This is so much like the Lee trade. Just a panic move.

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Old
07-31-2012, 11:59 AM
  #628
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What I want to know is how a couple months of Beltran was worth their best pitching prospect, but a year and a half of Pence is worth a decent catching prospect.
Other teams were in on Beltran, while they were among the sole suitors for Pence?

Just guessing.

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07-31-2012, 12:01 PM
  #629
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What I want to know is how a couple months of Beltran was worth their best pitching prospect, but a year and a half of Pence is worth a decent catching prospect.
Part of the problem is everyone knows the Phillies have to move salary because they don't want to be over the luxury tax threshold.

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07-31-2012, 12:01 PM
  #630
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Should I panic yet?

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07-31-2012, 12:01 PM
  #631
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Other teams were in on Beltran, while they were among the sole suitors for Pence?

Just guessing.
Lets also not forget that Beltran is way better than pence, and that option for next year may actually work against pence.

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07-31-2012, 12:03 PM
  #632
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Other teams were in on Beltran, while they were among the sole suitors for Pence?

Just guessing.
Maybe, but you gotta think people would have been in on Pence. It's not like he's having a horrible year. Plus he isn't a rental, and that catcher is never going to play for the Giants anyway. Hopefully there's a little more to the package than him and some random minor leaguers.

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07-31-2012, 12:05 PM
  #633
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Maybe, but you gotta think people would have been in on Pence. It's not like he's having a horrible year. Plus he isn't a rental, and that catcher is never going to play for the Giants anyway. Hopefully there's a little more to the package than him and some random minor leaguers.
I'm not sure Pence is more valuable with the extra year, to be honest. He's not a $13 million player.

This is tricky, but they must have believed that the market was not going to improve this winter--and tried to leverage the Dodgers moves as best they could.

Would have been nice to grab that CF prospect, though.

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07-31-2012, 12:05 PM
  #634
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Seems like panic mode on here about the returns, while the experts love Tommy Joseph. What are we missing???

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07-31-2012, 12:06 PM
  #635
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Seems like panic mode on here about the returns, while the experts love Tommy Joseph. What are we missing???
what experts love joseph. Seems like a cameron rupp type to me.

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07-31-2012, 12:11 PM
  #636
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what experts love joseph. Seems like a cameron rupp type to me.
‏@JonHeymanCBS

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rival gm says catching prospect tommy joseph who goes to #phillies from SF in pence deal is "GREAT"
‏@Ken_Rosenthal

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C/1B Tommy Joseph, player reported to be going to #Phillies for Pence, was #SFGiants' No. 2 prospect entering season, per @BaseballAmerica.

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07-31-2012, 12:11 PM
  #637
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An aging team with no farm system is what made the 80s and 90s irrelevant for the Phillies.
And now what we have is different...how? The major pieces on this team are old (Lee, Halladay, Utley, Howard, Ruiz, Rollins, Polanco). The minor league pieces are unproven. I guess their payroll is sky high compared to what they used to do?

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07-31-2012, 12:11 PM
  #638
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Honest question--I'm not well versed in baseball prospects--but what makes Joseph better than Valle (if he is at all)? I've seen him listed as C/1B--so if he more likely to make that move? Is he closer to the majors? Is he just a better prospect?

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07-31-2012, 12:11 PM
  #639
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Seems like panic mode on here about the returns, while the experts love Tommy Joseph. What are we missing???
He's got power, but doesn't walk a lot. What has plagued this organization for years is guys that don't get on base. The Phillies just don't value guys that get on base as much as they do power.

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07-31-2012, 12:12 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Seems like panic mode on here about the returns, while the experts love Tommy Joseph. What are we missing???
For me it is the price Ruben payed for Pence. If the price wsnt so steep, I wouldnt have a real issue with this trade.

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07-31-2012, 12:13 PM
  #641
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Happy with the return for Shane, two relievers and either a player to be named or cash for a rental player, on a bad year, that wasn't coming back.

The Pence deal..... wow just horrible (nothing against Joseph just thought more could have been received and in a position we need). Catcher really wasn't a need at the time and we got none of their big prospects. A lot of decent outfielders available in the offseason but this deal just screams head scratcher based on the return.

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07-31-2012, 12:14 PM
  #642
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Honest question--I'm not well versed in baseball prospects--but what makes Joseph better than Valle (if he is at all)? I've seen him listed as C/1B--so if he more likely to make that move? Is he closer to the majors? Is he just a better prospect?
A little more polished, but they are very similar. Power and no walks. Decent but not great behind the plate. What I find interesting is how will they manage their time. Both are AA players (Reading is actually playing Richmond today). I can't see them moving either one to AAA. I know Joseph can play first and there is a DH option, but this isn't the ideal situation for either one to develop.

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07-31-2012, 12:14 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Stonehands77 View Post
And now what we have is different...how? The major pieces on this team are old (Lee, Halladay, Utley, Howard, Ruiz, Rollins, Polanco). The minor league pieces are unproven. I guess their payroll is sky high compared to what they used to do?
It isn't different. That's what I am saying. They have to blow it up to get younger. It makes no sense for them to pay a luxury tax on a last place team.

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07-31-2012, 12:16 PM
  #644
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For me it is the price Ruben payed for Pence. If the price wsnt so steep, I wouldnt have a real issue with this trade.
I agree but what's done is done. We were pushing for a WS last year, needed a RH bat/OF/consistent hitter, and RAJ got one, and no one 2nd guessed the price for it, until we sucked. Hindsight blows.

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07-31-2012, 12:18 PM
  #645
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BTW the deal for Shane isn't even done yet, and people are already crushing it. There are still details being ironed out.

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07-31-2012, 12:18 PM
  #646
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Lets also not forget that Beltran is way better than pence, and that option for next year may actually work against pence.
He's also way older, and had been injured the 2 previous seasons. The only way the extra year hurts is if you're trying to move him to a team with no money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I'm not sure Pence is more valuable with the extra year, to be honest. He's not a $13 million player.

This is tricky, but they must have believed that the market was not going to improve this winter--and tried to leverage the Dodgers moves as best they could.

Would have been nice to grab that CF prospect, though.
I think he's definitely a $13 million player, especially if he hit FA. He's .290 hitter, with a .820ish OPS, that can hit around 25-30 HR depending on the park, with speed. That's should probably be around a $13 million player.

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07-31-2012, 12:20 PM
  #647
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I agree but what's done is done. We were pushing for a WS last year, needed a RH bat/OF/consistent hitter, and RAJ got one, and no one 2nd guessed the price for it, until we sucked. Hindsight blows.
I agree with the general sentiment, but I'm not sure that is true. There was a lot of surprise, IIRC, that both Cosart and Singleton were included.

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Old
07-31-2012, 12:21 PM
  #648
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BTW the deal for Shane isn't even done yet, and people are already crushing it. There are still details being ironed out.
It is done

Lindblom
Martin
Player to be named/cash

for Victorino

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Old
07-31-2012, 12:22 PM
  #649
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It is done

Lindblom
Martin
Player to be named/cash

for Victorino
Yeah, I think he meant Pence.

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Old
07-31-2012, 12:23 PM
  #650
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I agree with the general sentiment, but I'm not sure that is true. There was a lot of surprise, IIRC, that both Cosart and Singleton were included.
We were a flawed team last year and we needed a bat to put us in position to win the WS. clearly we needed more than that.

We neededa RH bat and pence was the best available option for us. singleton and cosart hurt but Domingo santana as a throw in? That put me over the edge.

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