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v20: off-season '12| In: Lowry, Fields, Valanciunas, Ross...Out: J Johnson, Bayless

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07-05-2012, 08:05 AM
  #126
Vexxed14
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Originally Posted by thatshype View Post
Simply to play the devil's advocate...

While everybody says the team needs do the Oklahoma City thing and suck bad enough to draft higher in the lottery, nobody seems to remember what happened to Portland. Portland basically went through the exact thing the Thunder did, and have absolutely nothing to show for it now.

2005: 3rd overall pick (Deron Williams) traded to Jazz for 6th overall pick (Martell Webster), also drafted 27th overall (Linus Kleiza
2006: Had the worse record of all but lost the lottery and picked 6th overall (Brandon Roy). Traded for 2nd overall pick (Lamarcus Aldridge). Also drafted 30th (Joel Freeland) and 31st (James White)
2007: 1st overall pick (Greg Oden)

Of all the players they drafted in 3 years of being one of the WORST teams in basketball, only Lamarcus Aldridge remains on their roster now. Granted he's a very valuable commodity, but the history shows that Portland tried to do the "Oklahoma"-model build before the Thunder did it, and failed miserably.


If the Raps "tank" and go for top picks, becoming the Trailblazers is just as likely as becoming the Thunder.
OKC is definitely the exception in the NBA draft to build theory.

You do need to find 1 legit star in the draft though which until now we have been able to do with relative success

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07-05-2012, 09:09 AM
  #127
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I have absolutely no hard feelings towards Nash at all. I'd have liked for him to sign here, but a class act like him can go to the Lakers and win a title, and I certainly hope he does. All I'm saying is that I think the Raptors operate from a marked disadvantage on a couple fronts and I'm wondering if re-location isn't in this team's future. The Raptors are not the Leafs. Consistent annual losing will not be tolerated by the fan base.
I will bet anyone here $1000 bux a shot that the Lakers don't win a title in the next 3years........ Nash will go down an an NBA great who couldn't win a ring & stiffed Canada!

As much as I hated the Miami Heat I am actually cheering them on to ensure they keep that ring away from that Jack ASS! OKC too!

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07-05-2012, 09:20 AM
  #128
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saw this tweet. interesting

@LarryCoon: It was never officially made. RT @hazburglar: Can Toronto rescind that ridiculous offer for Fields now that Nash isn't going there??

Larry Coon's twitter profile says writer for espn, ny times and hoopsworld.... but anyone know if any truth to this?

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07-05-2012, 09:23 AM
  #129
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Man, I really wish Nash signed with us. He would've put us over the top...of Milwaukee for 9th place.

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07-05-2012, 09:52 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by thatshype View Post
Simply to play the devil's advocate...

While everybody says the team needs do the Oklahoma City thing and suck bad enough to draft higher in the lottery, nobody seems to remember what happened to Portland. Portland basically went through the exact thing the Thunder did, and have absolutely nothing to show for it now.

2005: 3rd overall pick (Deron Williams) traded to Jazz for 6th overall pick (Martell Webster), also drafted 27th overall (Linus Kleiza
2006: Had the worse record of all but lost the lottery and picked 6th overall (Brandon Roy). Traded for 2nd overall pick (Lamarcus Aldridge). Also drafted 30th (Joel Freeland) and 31st (James White)
2007: 1st overall pick (Greg Oden)

Of all the players they drafted in 3 years of being one of the WORST teams in basketball, only Lamarcus Aldridge remains on their roster now. Granted he's a very valuable commodity, but the history shows that Portland tried to do the "Oklahoma"-model build before the Thunder did it, and failed miserably.


If the Raps "tank" and go for top picks, becoming the Trailblazers is just as likely as becoming the Thunder.
uhm, to be fair they didn't fail miserably they got unlucky, if Oden, Roy and LMA were all healthy they;d be better then okc.

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07-05-2012, 09:54 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by mpleafan View Post
saw this tweet. interesting

@LarryCoon: It was never officially made. RT @hazburglar: Can Toronto rescind that ridiculous offer for Fields now that Nash isn't going there??

Larry Coon's twitter profile says writer for espn, ny times and hoopsworld.... but anyone know if any truth to this?
They cannot even make the offer until July 11th so I do believe people are getting all worked up prematurely.

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07-05-2012, 10:57 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
They cannot even make the offer until July 11th so I do believe people are getting all worked up prematurely.
They can make the offer they just can't sign it and make it official until July 11. Right now its hard enough to get FA's to sign with the Raptors. It would make it even harder if we backed ot of our offer to Fields. You think thats something that potential FA's want is the possibility their offer is just going to be dropped? Basically we're either stuck with Fields, or are going to hurt the reputation for Toronto making it that much harder to get decent players to sign here.

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07-05-2012, 11:50 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by mpleafan View Post
saw this tweet. interesting

@LarryCoon: It was never officially made. RT @hazburglar: Can Toronto rescind that ridiculous offer for Fields now that Nash isn't going there??

Larry Coon's twitter profile says writer for espn, ny times and hoopsworld.... but anyone know if any truth to this?
He's right that it's not official. Contracts can't be officially agreed upon and signed until the 11th. But with that said, they have complete verbal agreement on the contract. Backing out now would look terrible for the franchise and would potentially scare off what few players might consider signing with the team in the future because they can no longer be sure that the team will stay true to their word on anything.

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07-05-2012, 12:35 PM
  #134
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He's right that it's not official. Contracts can't be officially agreed upon and signed until the 11th. But with that said, they have complete verbal agreement on the contract. Backing out now would look terrible for the franchise and would potentially scare off what few players might consider signing with the team in the future because they can no longer be sure that the team will stay true to their word on anything.
I don't think its the right move for Toronto to sign Fields so I'll think selfishly because our franchise's overall well-being depends on it.

Mediocre players who haven't proven anything don't deserve that kind of dough. I've been reading reports that Toronto is also considering offering Brandon Rush a contract.

Is it BC's mission to get mediocre wings to Toronto?

Before he overpays for another and waste's the cap flexibility we have, I think he along with Stefanski should be relieved off their duties.

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07-05-2012, 12:42 PM
  #135
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The Raptors are an irrelevant franchise. Nobody wants to play here. They never have a chance to get a big name free agent. That's the bottom line in the NBA.

The Raptors are not the only franchise in this situation. There are about 15-20 teams that are completely irrelevant.

The entire system is broken. I don't understand why the owners of these teams don't form a block and force changes to the current system. There was a Lock Out that shortened the last season that was supposed to solve some of these problems and it is now worse than ever.
Absolutely. It's the only professional sports league in North America without even a semblence of parity. That's what happens when the inmates run the asylum.

I used to be a hard core Raptor fan, but the nuances of the NBA have turned me off to the point that I'm now more of a casual observer.

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07-05-2012, 12:46 PM
  #136
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Absolutely. It's the only professional sports league in North America without even a semblence of parity. That's what happens when the inmates run the asylum.

I used to be a hard core Raptor fan, but the nuances of the NBA have turned me off to the point that I'm now more of a casual observer.
I'm not even a casual observer anymore. When I go into every single season without fail knowing my team doesn't have a shot in hell of sniffing the playoffs, and spending the entire season just struggling to stay out of the basement, it doesn't make me excited to turn the game on. I used to love basketball. Not so much anymore. Changes need to be made to the entire system from top to bottom and until those changes are made, I won't be tuning in.

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07-05-2012, 01:07 PM
  #137
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Houston has reached agreement to send Kyle Lowry to the Raptors for a package that includes a future lottery pick, source tells Y!
Stein is saying it's a protected first. If it's not protected, ****. If it is, that's cool.

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07-05-2012, 01:09 PM
  #138
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Lowry would be a great pickup. I love his game. Wonder what we gave up?

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07-05-2012, 01:09 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
I don't think its the right move for Toronto to sign Fields so I'll think selfishly because our franchise's overall well-being depends on it.

Mediocre players who haven't proven anything don't deserve that kind of dough. I've been reading reports that Toronto is also considering offering Brandon Rush a contract.

Is it BC's mission to get mediocre wings to Toronto?

Before he overpays for another and waste's the cap flexibility we have, I think he along with Stefanski should be relieved off their duties.
the thing with Fields is that it was never really about him as a player. offer-sheeting him was a calculated gamble to try and prevent the Knicks from having the pieces to put together a sign & trade for Nash (believing that they wouldn't be willing to offer Shumpert). In essence, if Nash had come to Toronto, the Fields contract would essentially be rolled into the Nash contract and collectively be considered as the price we paid for Nash.

Now obviously it ended up not working, and that was always a risk. And it is a risk that Colangelo should bear the blame for. But even if we're going to roast him for taking a stupid gamble that didn't pay off, it's not really fair/right to hang this on him as overpaying to acquire a mediocre player, as I'll bet that Fields' on-court performance was the last concern of the Raptors font office when they submitted the offer sheet.

and as I said earlier, even if they rescind the Fields offer, immediately fire BC and then wash their hands of him and blame the entirety of the Fields signing/non-signing on him, it won't matter. People outside the Raptors and their fanbase won't see backing out on Fields as a dick move by Bryan Colangelo. They'll see it as a dick move the Toronto Raptors organization. And will continue to hold it against the organization for the foreseeable future.

Our only hope is that the offer sheet agreement was entered into with Fields with the contingency that Nash would sign in Toronto. Kind of how the Hawks/Nets agreed to the Joe Johnson trade, but held it up on the grounds that it would only go through if Deron Williams stayed in Brooklyn.

That seems a small hope now, though.

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07-05-2012, 01:12 PM
  #140
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Future lottery pick ....great. SMH damn it Colangelo is screwing the pooch with this team

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07-05-2012, 01:12 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
the thing with Fields is that it was never really about him as a player. offer-sheeting him was a calculated gamble to try and prevent the Knicks from having the pieces to put together a sign & trade for Nash (believing that they wouldn't be willing to offer Shumpert). In essence, if Nash had come to Toronto, the Fields contract would essentially be rolled into the Nash contract and collectively be considered as the price we paid for Nash.

Now obviously it ended up not working, and that was always a risk. And it is a risk that Colangelo should bear the blame for. But even if we're going to roast him for taking a stupid gamble that didn't pay off, it's not really fair/right to hang this on him as overpaying to acquire a mediocre player, as I'll bet that Fields' on-court performance was the last concern of the Raptors font office when they submitted the offer sheet.

and as I said earlier, even if they rescind the Fields offer, immediately fire BC and then wash their hands of him and blame the entirety of the Fields signing/non-signing on him, it won't matter. People outside the Raptors and their fanbase won't see backing out on Fields as a dick move by Bryan Colangelo. They'll see it as a dick move the Toronto Raptors organization. And will continue to hold it against the organization for the foreseeable future.

Our only hope is that the offer sheet agreement was entered into with Fields with the contingency that Nash would sign in Toronto. Kind of how the Hawks/Nets agreed to the Joe Johnson trade, but held it up on the grounds that it would only go through if Deron Williams stayed in Brooklyn.

That seems a small hope now, though.
I think that the reasons you lay out eloquently on why we would send the offer sheet in the first place are the same reasons why not actually sending him the offer wouldn't be so bad.

This is the NBA and players screw teams more than any other league outside of soccer and historically, the teams aren't much better.

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07-05-2012, 01:14 PM
  #142
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Stein is saying it's a protected first. If it's not protected, ****. If it is, that's cool.
thank god. Of course, I wonder why this wasn't Plan A to start with, but I think that in the end it's probably a better deal to get Lowry and Ross and give up the 2013 pick (if that's the price) than just come out of this off-season with Lowry and have surrendered the 8th.

the 2013 draft class is allegedly shaping up to be one of the worst since teh awful, awful 2000 class. So even losing out on a lottery pick there is not a terrible blow for the team.

Houston must be confident that their offer for Jeremy Lin will go through, because if not they're now out both of their PGs from last season.

The question now also becomes what does Toronto do at PG? Amnesty Jose? trade him? renounce Bayless' FA rights? Trade him? Might be hard to engineer a trade for either guard now that teams kinda know the Raptors need to make a PG move.

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07-05-2012, 01:22 PM
  #143
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Wow that pick better be top 5 protected.

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07-05-2012, 01:23 PM
  #144
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Lowry fits PERFECTLY with what BC is trying to do (which I'm ultimately not sure is the best route but nevertheless)... He's a Dwayne Casey type of guy, still improving too, could develop into a low scoring double double lock who is a better defender than Jose.

But damn that pick better be protected.

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07-05-2012, 01:27 PM
  #145
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Heard Gary Forbes is going to Houston.

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07-05-2012, 01:30 PM
  #146
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Heard Gary Forbes is going to Houston.
not surprising. He rotted on the bench this year, and with Fields probably entering the picture along with Ross, there's not a whole lot of room for him on the roster.


as for the pick protection issue, I'm not that concerned even if it isn't protected. Like I said, the 2013 draft is supposed to suuuuuuck. Like nearly 2000-draft level of suck. and realistically the Raptors are a better team now than they were for 2011-12, so chances are that they don't finish any worse than they did last season. And considering that they were prepared to send the 8th pick to Houston for Lowry, I have to say that I think Ross+Lowry is better than Lowry+whatever they would pick next year.

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07-05-2012, 01:30 PM
  #147
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PG - Lowry/Bayless
SG - DeRozan/Ross
SF - Fields/Johnson/Kleiza
PF - Bargnani/Davis/Johnson
C - Valanciunas/Gray

Amnesty Calderon?

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07-05-2012, 01:30 PM
  #148
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Nice, we got Lowry!

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07-05-2012, 01:31 PM
  #149
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Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA

The Rockets and Raptors are working on something "innovative," source says, with lottery protection on 1st round pick returning to Houston.

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07-05-2012, 01:32 PM
  #150
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Lowry is a wicked pick up!!!!!!

hope its top 5 protected tho

this team will make the playoffs

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