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Old
07-06-2012, 10:02 AM
  #26
NHLsnipers
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
Pretty much every intelligent hockey fan knows that as it stands now, we got ripped in the Goose trade.

The 3rd one is too early to tell. But we all thought we could get a higher pick. Not a terrible loss, but still a loss. Who knows, though, Ribs might suck and Eakin might become an elite #3 center or something. But who knows. You could make the same argument on our 4th deal.
Really?!?! Like you said, the Stars lost very heavily in the Neal trade! Not even close. IMO

Goligoski is an above average defender that would be on most teams 2nd pairing. James Neal is now a 40 goal scorer. How many of those are there in the league?

This trade wasn't even close. Dallas goes to having the worst PP with Goligoski, while Neal puts up 40 goals. Yes, he's with Malkin, but still.

I like the optimism and homerism here but really? You have to call a spade a spade.

Maybe if Letang came over instead...

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07-06-2012, 12:07 PM
  #27
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Really?!?! Like you said, the Stars lost very heavily in the Neal trade! Not even close. IMO

Goligoski is an above average defender that would be on most teams 2nd pairing. James Neal is now a 40 goal scorer. How many of those are there in the league?

This trade wasn't even close. Dallas goes to having the worst PP with Goligoski, while Neal puts up 40 goals. Yes, he's with Malkin, but still.

I like the optimism and homerism here but really? You have to call a spade a spade.

Maybe if Letang came over instead...
Neal was inconsistent even when playing with Richards and Eriksson. It didn't look like he was going to put the pieces together on his own, and the team had Morrow and Benn as LWs who were having great and good seasons respectively. Neal wasn't going to score 40 in Dallas, he was a position that was a strength for the team and defense was a need.

Letang wasn't going to be traded for Neal. The team needed a young, cheap PMD and that is what they got.

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07-06-2012, 12:33 PM
  #28
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Really?!?! Like you said, the Stars lost very heavily in the Neal trade! Not even close. IMO

Goligoski is an above average defender that would be on most teams 2nd pairing. James Neal is now a 40 goal scorer. How many of those are there in the league?

This trade wasn't even close. Dallas goes to having the worst PP with Goligoski, while Neal puts up 40 goals. Yes, he's with Malkin, but still.

I like the optimism and homerism here but really? You have to call a spade a spade.

Maybe if Letang came over instead...
Oh, it's a lot more than "but still." Having a physically dominant playmaking center like Malkin, who is also a legitimate goal-scoring threat, on his line is helping Neal immensely.

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07-06-2012, 12:35 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
Neal was inconsistent even when playing with Richards and Eriksson. It didn't look like he was going to put the pieces together on his own, and the team had Morrow and Benn as LWs who were having great and good seasons respectively. Neal wasn't going to score 40 in Dallas, he was a position that was a strength for the team and defense was a need.

Letang wasn't going to be traded for Neal. The team needed a young, cheap PMD and that is what they got.
He had 2 points in the 15-20 games leading up to the trade, which also coincided with a horrendous run starting from that trip to the NW.

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07-06-2012, 12:44 PM
  #30
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Its crazy how quickly Goligoski seems to have fallen out of favor with many Dallas fans. He comes in here after the trade and lights it up then has a mediocre season and people act like he is a chump. I fully expect Goligoski to rebound and score 40+ points this season. At the same time its pretty silly how people act like Neal was completely done growing as a player in Dallas. Sure he wouldn't have put up the numbers he did in Pittsburgh this season, but he would have been an incredibly important piece to the Stars group of forwards, most likely finishing top 3 in Stars scoring.

At first the deal looked like a big steal for Dallas and now it looks like a big steal for Pittsburgh. I suspect in the long run it will look like Pittsburgh got the better of the trade but not by a huge margin.

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07-06-2012, 12:44 PM
  #31
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I feel the opposition is much more vocal too.
You mean the ones who realize he's a decent defenseman, at best? He's got one more season to prove to me that he's not just another guy and can be a game changer, because that's what we gave up for him.

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07-06-2012, 12:49 PM
  #32
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Neal was inconsistent even when playing with Richards and Eriksson. It didn't look like he was going to put the pieces together on his own, and the team had Morrow and Benn as LWs who were having great and good seasons respectively. Neal wasn't going to score 40 in Dallas, he was a position that was a strength for the team and defense was a need.
As a person who was "on board" with the trade at the time I feel like there's a good amount of revisionist history going on here these days regarding Neal.

Yes he was inconsistent but he wasn't traded because "it didn't look like he was going to put the pieces together" here. He was traded because the team had a massive gaping hole on D and Neal was always the most likely player to be traded in order to obtain it. There seems to be this idea out there among some Stars fans who keep saying that he's miles better now than he was here; that's bs. He had deficiencies in his game but they were never to the point that he couldn't/wouldn't have ironed them out in a Stars jersey. If he were 2-3 years older then I could buy that but he was just too young to say he had stalled out here. It's something Stars fans say to themselves to feel better about not getting a better defenseman back in return for him.

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07-06-2012, 01:41 PM
  #33
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You mean the ones who realize he's a decent defenseman, at best? He's got one more season to prove to me that he's not just another guy and can be a game changer, because that's what we gave up for him.
In the 30 games leading up to the trade he scored 8G 3A and was a -5.

That's a game changer?

He had a decent hot streak in November and early December, but other than that he was not very good. From what I saw, his 'game changer' status ended after his suspension. He was a different player after that.

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07-06-2012, 02:14 PM
  #34
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The funny thing is I doubt we'd all be as pissed off if Morrow came in and had a close to repeat season of the year when we traded Neal. We went from having 4 good LW's in Benn, Neal, Morrow, and Ott to having 2. Benn went to Center, Morrow decided he was going to suck and be lazy, Neal got traded, and Ott has never been top 6 material. We moved Loui to LW but it still left a gaping hole there. We got unlucky that an area of strength suddenly turned into a weakness in one season in which we had nearly the same personnel.

I'm not saying we wouldn't be talking about it at all, I'm saying it looks a lot worse when you have to put up with watching Steve Ott play in the top 6 for an entire year. I think this year will decide which Goligoski we're getting once and for all. He's still young too, especially for a D-man. I doubt he'll ever live up to matching a 40 goal James Neal, but he still could live up to what James Neal would probably have done here. Be a consistent 30 goal guy who helped the PP. Hopefully Goligoski gets out of his funk, quarterbacks this thing properly, and our PP is much improved.

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07-06-2012, 04:08 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Primetimey View Post
How is GMJN doing?

Better than Cheveldayoff
Funny thing is I think they have both had a similar off seasons tactically. They were both agressive with expensive short term veteran FA signings that bought cover for prospect development. Joe has been a bit more agressive "so far" in the trade catagory but I don't think Chevy is done yet. Honestly I think they have both done well so far.

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07-06-2012, 05:21 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
As a person who was "on board" with the trade at the time I feel like there's a good amount of revisionist history going on here these days regarding Neal.

Yes he was inconsistent but he wasn't traded because "it didn't look like he was going to put the pieces together" here. He was traded because the team had a massive gaping hole on D and Neal was always the most likely player to be traded in order to obtain it. There seems to be this idea out there among some Stars fans who keep saying that he's miles better now than he was here; that's bs. He had deficiencies in his game but they were never to the point that he couldn't/wouldn't have ironed them out in a Stars jersey. If he were 2-3 years older then I could buy that but he was just too young to say he had stalled out here. It's something Stars fans say to themselves to feel better about not getting a better defenseman back in return for him.
My post had some of these ideas in it as well, but I think the team ran out of patience with him and the results he got while playing on the team's best line.

I do think Neal is significantly better now than he was when he got traded. Some of it is Malkin, but I think something happened (maybe over the off season) that got him going in the right direction.

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07-06-2012, 07:08 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
My post had some of these ideas in it as well, but I think the team ran out of patience with him and the results he got while playing on the team's best line.

I do think Neal is significantly better now than he was when he got traded. Some of it is Malkin, but I think something happened (maybe over the off season) that got him going in the right direction.
Simply getting traded was probably a huge wake up call.

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07-06-2012, 07:42 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Funny thing is I think they have both had a similar off seasons tactically. They were both agressive with expensive short term veteran FA signings that bought cover for prospect development. Joe has been a bit more agressive "so far" in the trade catagory but I don't think Chevy is done yet. Honestly I think they have both done well so far.
I am from Winnipeg and I hate the Jets, so that was more of a sarcastic joke remark. I don't see how you could compare the off-seasons at all however.

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07-06-2012, 08:10 PM
  #39
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I am much more pleased with Joe ATM than before the start of this offseason.

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07-06-2012, 08:44 PM
  #40
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I am from Winnipeg and I hate the Jets, so that was more of a sarcastic joke remark. I don't see how you could compare the off-seasons at all however.
I guess my point was both sides went into the free agent market to sign short term (1 or 2 year) skilled bridge assets to buy time while the prospects grow and remain productive. Ollie Jokinen had 61 points last season for the Flames and Sutter said he was the Teams top forward (in the Winnipeg Sun yesterday). 2 years at a $4.5 cap hit per year and he fills our biggest void "short term" which is a big bodied (6'3" 210) top line centre. also getting Ponikarvovsky for 1 year will fill another big gap as a top tier 3rd line asset. our 3rd line was brutal last year and he is big and had one of the top if not "the" top CORSI rating on the devils last year. both these guys give us short term relief and upgrade our top 6 to 9 forward groupings. my assumption was that Dallas was using Whitney and Jags for a similar reason.

Dallas has been more aggressive in their trades to date but Chevy has stated openly that we are not done yet. I expect to see at least one sizeable trade before the season starts.

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07-06-2012, 08:59 PM
  #41
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I am much more pleased with Joe ATM than before the start of this offseason.
Agreed. I wanted to see some direction, and now we see it. It may not work, but at least it looks like a plan.

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07-06-2012, 09:49 PM
  #42
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I guess my point was both sides went into the free agent market to sign short term (1 or 2 year) skilled bridge assets to buy time while the prospects grow and remain productive. Ollie Jokinen had 61 points last season for the Flames and Sutter said he was the Teams top forward (in the Winnipeg Sun yesterday). 2 years at a $4.5 cap hit per year and he fills our biggest void "short term" which is a big bodied (6'3" 210) top line centre. also getting Ponikarvovsky for 1 year will fill another big gap as a top tier 3rd line asset. our 3rd line was brutal last year and he is big and had one of the top if not "the" top CORSI rating on the devils last year. both these guys give us short term relief and upgrade our top 6 to 9 forward groupings. my assumption was that Dallas was using Whitney and Jags for a similar reason.

Dallas has been more aggressive in their trades to date but Chevy has stated openly that we are not done yet. I expect to see at least one sizeable trade before the season starts.
I was disappointed to see that you guys got Jokinen for 2 years. I thought he would want longer term for sure, and would much rather have him at that price AND Ott than Roy. But no hard feelings, as others have suggested that being closer to CGY was important to him, and Dallas can't match that.

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07-06-2012, 09:51 PM
  #43
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I was disappointed to see that you guys got Jokinen for 2 years. I thought he would want longer term for sure, and would much rather have him at that price AND Ott than Roy. But no hard feelings, as others have suggested that being closer to CGY was important to him, and Dallas can't match that.
I'd rather take Roy tbh. More skill, and we've got a pretty good chance at re-signing him next year.

Ott wouldn't have garnered enough help on D to make it worthwhile. That, and I'm not a fan of Jokinen.

Speaking of Ott, I saw tons of Ott stuff at the Frisco pro shop. Hell, even the Souray jerseys weren't marked down yet...

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07-06-2012, 10:18 PM
  #44
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I guess my point was both sides went into the free agent market to sign short term (1 or 2 year) skilled bridge assets to buy time while the prospects grow and remain productive. Ollie Jokinen had 61 points last season for the Flames and Sutter said he was the Teams top forward (in the Winnipeg Sun yesterday). 2 years at a $4.5 cap hit per year and he fills our biggest void "short term" which is a big bodied (6'3" 210) top line centre. also getting Ponikarvovsky for 1 year will fill another big gap as a top tier 3rd line asset. our 3rd line was brutal last year and he is big and had one of the top if not "the" top CORSI rating on the devils last year. both these guys give us short term relief and upgrade our top 6 to 9 forward groupings. my assumption was that Dallas was using Whitney and Jags for a similar reason.

Dallas has been more aggressive in their trades to date but Chevy has stated openly that we are not done yet. I expect to see at least one sizeable trade before the season starts.
The reason why I don't see it being comparable is that Dallas completely blew up their team while the Jets merely added. Riberio, Ott, Souray, Burish, etc. are all gone. We went out and acquired a top fifteen point player in the league last season and added someone who brings a lot of attention to the organization.

While the Jets went and added a strong second line center in Jokinen (I don't see him playing more than Little) the other two Poni/Montoya are just your average joe players.

To me the Jets don't need stop-gap veterans. You already have Kane, Burmistrov, Bogosian, Postma ready to go. While our 20 and 21 year old's in Glennie, Fraser, Oleksiak, Nemeth aren't quite there.

I just see it as a different situation.

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07-06-2012, 10:20 PM
  #45
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The reason why I don't see it being comparable is that Dallas completely blew up their team while the Jets merely added. Riberio, Ott, Souray, Burish, etc. are all gone. We went out and acquired a top fifteen point player in the league last season and added someone who brings a lot of attention to the organization.

While the Jets went and added a strong second line center in Jokinen (I don't see him playing more than Little) the other two Poni/Montoya are just your average joe players.

To me the Jets don't need stop-gap veterans. You already have Kane, Burmistrov, Bogosian, Postma ready to go. While our 20 and 21 year old's in Glennie, Fraser, Oleksiak, Nemeth aren't quite there.

I just see it as a different situation.
Not sure I'd say we completely blew it up.

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07-07-2012, 09:25 AM
  #46
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Really?!?! Like you said, the Stars lost very heavily in the Neal trade! Not even close. IMO

Goligoski is an above average defender that would be on most teams 2nd pairing. James Neal is now a 40 goal scorer. How many of those are there in the league?

This trade wasn't even close. Dallas goes to having the worst PP with Goligoski, while Neal puts up 40 goals. Yes, he's with Malkin, but still.

I like the optimism and homerism here but really? You have to call a spade a spade.

Maybe if Letang came over instead...
I think Goligoski is definitely below average defensively, and that's my biggest issue with him.

And as a mobile dman it's funny, he and Daley seem to have opposite skills. Put them together and you'd have the perfect PMD. Daley is great at transitioning, carrying the puck into the zone. Then nothing happens in terms of him getting points out of it. Goligoski isn't great at entry or carrying it into the zone on the PP to get things set up(weakness as a PP QB), but in the zone he's good and will get points and score 10-15 goals.

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07-07-2012, 09:27 AM
  #47
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Its crazy how quickly Goligoski seems to have fallen out of favor with many Dallas fans. He comes in here after the trade and lights it up then has a mediocre season and people act like he is a chump. I fully expect Goligoski to rebound and score 40+ points this season. At the same time its pretty silly how people act like Neal was completely done growing as a player in Dallas. Sure he wouldn't have put up the numbers he did in Pittsburgh this season, but he would have been an incredibly important piece to the Stars group of forwards, most likely finishing top 3 in Stars scoring.

At first the deal looked like a big steal for Dallas and now it looks like a big steal for Pittsburgh. I suspect in the long run it will look like Pittsburgh got the better of the trade but not by a huge margin.
I do think Goose rebounds offensively. My issue is that he doesn't seem to be good defensively. If he improves in that area I'll be happy. He does make some really good defensive plays but he also screws up way too often and turns the puck over a lot. Some of it is a case of him being skilled and such a good skater he tries getting away with too much instead of "keeping it simple."

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07-07-2012, 01:28 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Primetimey View Post
The reason why I don't see it being comparable is that Dallas completely blew up their team while the Jets merely added. Riberio, Ott, Souray, Burish, etc. are all gone. We went out and acquired a top fifteen point player in the league last season and added someone who brings a lot of attention to the organization.

While the Jets went and added a strong second line center in Jokinen (I don't see him playing more than Little) the other two Poni/Montoya are just your average joe players.

To me the Jets don't need stop-gap veterans. You already have Kane, Burmistrov, Bogosian, Postma ready to go. While our 20 and 21 year old's in Glennie, Fraser, Oleksiak, Nemeth aren't quite there.

I just see it as a different situation.
I don't want to highjack the thread and turn it into a Winnipeg thing so last post from me I promise. My OP was that we were similar in our FA signings as far as transitional solutions to keep the team competitive. I stand by that so we might have to agree to disagree. Little is best suited to a number 2 centre or even right wing and he was kind of forced into the #1 roll. Jokinen will certainly be an upgrade and is capable of putting up over 60 points as we saw last year. We had no 3rd line and with Poni now we do. As for prospects being ready Kane and Bogo are very ready but Burmi was forced into the top 6 last year and wasn't ready for it yet. A great spot for him (depending on his progress) this year would be centring an all USSR 3rd line of Poni Burmi and Antro. That line combo might put up 110 to 120 points and that would be huge for our team. Also Scheifele could be a very solid top 6 talent but he is still physically immature and I believe he will need 1 more in year in juniors and maybe even a year in the AHL (the Adam Henrique route). Also Telegin showed last year he might project to be a top 6 type talent in the NHL but my guess is that TNSE will want him to play at least part of this year in the AHL. Our challenge is Atlanta had no problem putting 18 year olds into the line up and TNSE have stated they are going to take their time which is perfect but it creates a 2 to 3 year void of top 6 forward type talent or top 4 D type talent to graduate from our draft and develop plan. Poni and Jokinen buy us 1 and 2 years respectively and are both key pieces addressing big holes in our line up that prospects might fill in 2 seasons. I still think Whitney and Jags are brought in for a similar reason (fill out Dallas's top 6 "for now"), I do understand the pedigree difference between that group and Poni but Jokinen's numbers were competitive with them last year.

anyways I started cheering for Dallas in the west last year when Tom picked up the team. I have had business dealings with him and he is a strait shooter from my experience and I believe he got screwed in Vancouver (even though the court didn't see it that way). I know he is thrilled to own the Stars and he is really competitive. My hopes are that the moves work out for the Stars this year!


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07-08-2012, 07:49 AM
  #49
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Haven't been a fan of him or the job he's done, up until this FA. I actually think he's done pretty good in filling holes.

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07-08-2012, 11:03 AM
  #50
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I do think Goose rebounds offensively. My issue is that he doesn't seem to be good defensively. If he improves in that area I'll be happy. He does make some really good defensive plays but he also screws up way too often and turns the puck over a lot. Some of it is a case of him being skilled and such a good skater he tries getting away with too much instead of "keeping it simple."

Goose was not that productive offensively mainly because of his ice time. Per minute he was absolutely fine. If he earns the trust of our coaching staff to actually play in important situations than he can be a worthwhile guy.

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