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Old
07-06-2012, 02:56 AM
  #26
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Winnipeg kids will grow up dreaming of playing for the Jets, then get drafted first overall by the Leafs and have their hopes and dreams of winning a Stanley Cup crushed forever.

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07-06-2012, 06:44 AM
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I honestly think we should trade Evander Kane and Olli Jokinen for Jonathan Toews, hes just what we need in every way, Hometown boy, number one centre, and if the Chicago Blackhawks are collapsing, lets at least try and get him, and we make Slater change his number.
I honestly think we should trade Antropov and thorburn for Crosby and Malken. Let's at least try to get them

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07-06-2012, 07:03 AM
  #28
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What makes you say that?
Yup, nothing to prove that statement. I grew up with Toews, he is loyal to a fault almost. He has had many problems in Chicago, but he will stay there so long as the organization treats him right. If he ever hits UFA, WPG will have a HUGE, HUMONGOUS advantage towards signing him, he loves this city but they would need to show him that he will appreciated here (but considering that Community Club that me and him grew up playing at was renamed the Jonathan Toews Community Club, which unnerves me to no end, I think he will be appreciated here )

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07-06-2012, 08:29 AM
  #29
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This thread seems like NHL 12 gone haywire.

Chicago doesn't even entertain the thought of trading Kane for Buff. That's ludicrous.

And Toews is never getting traded out of Chicago. Antropov? Lol, like adding Antropov into the mix all of a sudden tips the scales? The only way Toews isn't wearing a Blackhawk jersey for life is if by the time he is a UFA if the Hawks have suddenly found themselves as non contenders, and he leaves to go and try to win a cup somewhere else (and that team backs up the Brinks truck for him).

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07-06-2012, 08:30 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
I honestly think we should trade Antropov and thorburn for Crosby and Malken. Let's at least try to get them
Exactly. According to how some people make trades here, maybe if we add in Hainsey we can get them to add in Letang.

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07-06-2012, 09:13 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
This thread seems like NHL 12 gone haywire.

Chicago doesn't even entertain the thought of trading Kane for Buff. That's ludicrous.

And Toews is never getting traded out of Chicago. Antropov? Lol, like adding Antropov into the mix all of a sudden tips the scales? The only way Toews isn't wearing a Blackhawk jersey for life is if by the time he is a UFA if the Hawks have suddenly found themselves as non contenders, and he leaves to go and try to win a cup somewhere else (and that team backs up the Brinks truck for him).
Not sure the rest of the world sees it your way. Buff was the second highest scoring defenceman in the league, despite his injury, is huge and is...unique. Have you noticed the premium that defencemen are fetching these days?
P Kane didn't make the top 30 scorers and, some would say, has character issues. Now, I have made my views on their relative merits pretty clear, but others could see it differently.
You want ludicrous--how about 196 million dollars and a 26 year commitment for 2 players who were not even the best players on their teams? Ludicrous is the new normal.

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07-06-2012, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
Not sure the rest of the world sees it your way. Buff was the second highest scoring defenceman in the league, despite his injury, is huge and is...unique. Have you noticed the premium that defencemen are fetching these days?
P Kane didn't make the top 30 scorers and, some would say, has character issues. Now, I have made my views on their relative merits pretty clear, but others could see it differently.
You want ludicrous--how about 196 million dollars and a 26 year commitment for 2 players who were not even the best players on their teams? Ludicrous is the new normal.
No, I'm pretty sure Huffer was indeed correct.

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07-06-2012, 09:58 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
Not sure the rest of the world sees it your way. Buff was the second highest scoring defenceman in the league, despite his injury, is huge and is...unique. Have you noticed the premium that defencemen are fetching these days?
P Kane didn't make the top 30 scorers and, some would say, has character issues. Now, I have made my views on their relative merits pretty clear, but others could see it differently.
You want ludicrous--how about 196 million dollars and a 26 year commitment for 2 players who were not even the best players on their teams? Ludicrous is the new normal.
Ludicrous exists in free agency, but not so much in player for player trades

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07-06-2012, 09:58 AM
  #34
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Yup, nothing to prove that statement. I grew up with Toews, he is loyal to a fault almost. He has had many problems in Chicago, but he will stay there so long as the organization treats him right. If he ever hits UFA, WPG will have a HUGE, HUMONGOUS advantage towards signing him, he loves this city but they would need to show him that he will appreciated here (but considering that Community Club that me and him grew up playing at was renamed the Jonathan Toews Community Club, which unnerves me to no end, I think he will be appreciated here )
Being loyal to the city is one thing, wanting to live in your hometown as a young millionaire is another. I don't doubt he is a very loyal guy, does lots of work through charities and functions in Manitoba during his off time etc. We all have a friend of a friend who knows Toews, but from what I gathered from those people, he likes living in the Windy City (Big cities) and during the off-season he spends the majority of the time at the lake away from Winnipeg.
I couldn't imagine being that successful and living in my hometown, knowing that every childhood acquaintance would be hitting you up like you were best friends still. And you really can't fault him of that and in no way am I trying to knock him, its just the picture that's been painted by hearsay, that's all.

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07-06-2012, 10:03 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by cctyler View Post
Being loyal to the city is one thing, wanting to live in your hometown as a young millionaire is another. I don't doubt he is a very loyal guy, does lots of work through charities and functions in Manitoba during his off time etc. We all have a friend of a friend who knows Toews, but from what I gathered from those people, he likes living in the Windy City (Big cities) and during the off-season he spends the majority of the time at the lake away from Winnipeg.
I couldn't imagine being that successful and living in my hometown, knowing that every childhood acquaintance would be hitting you up like you were best friends still. And you really can't fault him of that and in no way am I trying to knock him, its just the picture that's been painted by hearsay, that's all.
Truth

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07-06-2012, 10:24 AM
  #36
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If I would be an NHL star I wouldn't be so crazy about playing in my hometown neither. Why is that so much of a big deal?

He has is old friends and family around him? Yes, sure. But you have to live your own life and if things fall like they did for someone like Toews and he ends up in a city like Chicago and is very succesfull and is loved by the fans - why should he leave to play in Winnipeg? Just because he is born in Winnipeg and has family and friends here? So? I understand why that is a valid and important point for SOME people in life but I personally wouldn't be that much like that. I'm not a big family and hometown person. I wouldnt let anything for my career or life depend on a decition like that, "just" because it's my hometown.

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07-06-2012, 10:33 AM
  #37
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Hmm, I used to think that I'd die before I could cheer for Dustin Byfuglien but that turned out ok.

Patrick Kane though? man, I dunno.

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07-06-2012, 10:44 AM
  #38
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Anyone posting speculative comments about Toews or Zajac not wanting to play here care to post a source?

As far as the trade being discussed, well, it is a long summer isn't it.

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07-06-2012, 11:04 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by cctyler View Post
Being loyal to the city is one thing, wanting to live in your hometown as a young millionaire is another. I don't doubt he is a very loyal guy, does lots of work through charities and functions in Manitoba during his off time etc. We all have a friend of a friend who knows Toews, but from what I gathered from those people, he likes living in the Windy City (Big cities) and during the off-season he spends the majority of the time at the lake away from Winnipeg.
I couldn't imagine being that successful and living in my hometown, knowing that every childhood acquaintance would be hitting you up like you were best friends still. And you really can't fault him of that and in no way am I trying to knock him, its just the picture that's been painted by hearsay, that's all.
So, nothing credible. Playing hockey in Winnipeg for many years I am also pretty connected to a lot of people in those circles and I have not heard one thing suggesting that JT would not play here, or wouldn't be excited in fact to do so.

The proof will be in the pudding when he becomes a UFA. I give it a better than 50% chance that he will sign here.

This is based on nothing but what I have heard about him over the past few years. I don't know JT.

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07-06-2012, 11:31 AM
  #40
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Yeah, after witnessing what Parise and Suter have just done to their former teams, I'd be very concerned about Jonathan Toews making it to free agency if I were the Black Hawks Management team. How could they not have that same scenario burning a hole in the back of their minds.

I'm sure in the next year or two they'd probably like to extend him, but with that said, why wouldn't Toews want to at least "test the market" after seeing the ways teams have rolled out the red carpet for Richards, Parise and Suter.

Should Toews decide to become a UFA, Winnipeg will be easily one of the top 3 suitors for him and I like their chances of getting him too. Landing an elite UFA like Toews would be a landmark day. It would signify as much as when the JETS 1.0 landed Bobby Hull.


I don't really know about Zajac, but I could see Alex Steen coming to play where his father played and still lives.

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07-06-2012, 11:44 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
Anyone posting speculative comments about Toews or Zajac not wanting to play here care to post a source?

As far as the trade being discussed, well, it is a long summer isn't it.

It is indeed a long summer, but speculating on the future makes it so much more fun.
So, in that spirit only and with the premise that a high-level C or RW would be a key piece to the puzzle, who do you think Buff could fetch in trade?

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07-06-2012, 12:00 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
I honestly think we should trade Antropov and thorburn for Crosby and Malken. Let's at least try to get them
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
Exactly. According to how some people make trades here, maybe if we add in Hainsey we can get them to add in Letang.
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
No, I'm pretty sure Huffer was indeed correct.
Yeah exactly, Kane's 23 goals last year are worth at least 5 times as much as the 23 goals Jokinen scored. And also given the fact Patrick Kane only scored one less goal than Bryan Little last year, well, we'd have to give up at least Buff, Evander Kane, Antropov, Wheeler, and a handful of draft picks before Chicago would listen.

NHL 12 no doubt.

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07-06-2012, 12:11 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
Yeah exactly, Kane's 23 goals last year are worth at least 5 times as much as the 23 goals Jokinen scored. And also given the fact Patrick Kane only scored one less goal than Bryan Little last year, well, we'd have to give up at least Buff, Evander Kane, Antropov, Wheeler, and a handful of draft picks before Chicago would listen.

NHL 12 no doubt.

one year does not a trend, nor proof make. Honestly, the assumption that one bad year isa ll GM's look at is absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe you've forgotten that this year was his first year NOT scoring 70+ points?

or that' he's what, 23?

has a career high of 88?

lets see how well that compares to Bryan Little.

Your a little confused I think if you honestly believe point production from the previous year is the primary determinant of value.

I can't remember, are you pro trading Enstrom? because he's clearly a scrub as well..

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07-06-2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
It is indeed a long summer, but speculating on the future makes it so much more fun.
So, in that spirit only and with the premise that a high-level C or RW would be a key piece to the puzzle, who do you think Buff could fetch in trade?




Not sure who exactly he could fetch, but narrowing down the potential teams that might be interested to the NYI, Anaheim, Colorado, Boston, Florida, Nashville and Philadelphia may give you a better idea of what players could potentially be targets.

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07-06-2012, 12:23 PM
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one year does not a trend, nor proof make. Honestly, the assumption that one bad year isa ll GM's look at is absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe you've forgotten that this year was his first year NOT scoring 70+ points?

or that' he's what, 23?

has a career high of 88?

lets see how well that compares to Bryan Little.

Your a little confused I think if you honestly believe point production from the previous year is the primary determinant of value.

I can't remember, are you pro trading Enstrom? because he's clearly a scrub as well..
What I said was not to be taken literally. I was making a point. I believe point value in a given year is the primary determinant of value for that year. And with that, I don't believe in a player like Patrick Kane being worth the world's gold because he scored 88 points a few years ago and may (or may not) repeat that feat.

So I don't think someone should be shot down as living in a fantasy hockey world for suggesting a Buff for Kane trade. Perhaps this is just someone who realizes you don't need to trade 50 goals away from your team to get 25 back, just because that guy has a reputation like Patrick Kane. Just who is living in the fantasy world then?

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07-06-2012, 12:41 PM
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What I said was not to be taken literally. I was making a point. I believe point value in a given year is the primary determinant of value for that year. And with that, I don't believe in a player like Patrick Kane being worth the world's gold because he scored 88 points a few years ago and may (or may not) repeat that feat.

So I don't think someone should be shot down as living in a fantasy hockey world for suggesting a Buff for Kane trade. Perhaps this is just someone who realizes you don't need to trade 50 goals away from your team to get 25 back, just because that guy has a reputation like Patrick Kane. Just who is living in the fantasy world then?
i will agree none of us should be accusing eachother of living ina fantasy world when making "fantasy" trade posts, as it seems a bit ridiculous (it sounds like"you're pretending wrong").

I would simply like to argue, that previous year production, is most likely, NOT the primary weight of a players worth. I would imagine track record, scouting report, development, age, previous accomplishments, recent accomplishmans, and projections would all be combined to determine value, with recent accomplishments being a small part, and probably considerably less valued then previous/consistent accomplishments. Or if you prefer, season average.

You will end up with a lot of bad deals if you only value other, and your own, players based off what they did last season.

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07-06-2012, 12:59 PM
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i will agree none of us should be accusing eachother of living ina fantasy world when making "fantasy" trade posts, as it seems a bit ridiculous (it sounds like"you're pretending wrong").

I would simply like to argue, that previous year production, is most likely, NOT the primary weight of a players worth. I would imagine track record, scouting report, development, age, previous accomplishments, recent accomplishmans, and projections would all be combined to determine value, with recent accomplishments being a small part, and probably considerably less valued then previous/consistent accomplishments. Or if you prefer, season average.

You will end up with a lot of bad deals if you only value other, and your own, players based off what they did last season.
Based on the above criteria, P Kane is a 25 goal, 65-70 point forward, with potential and some baggage. I think he is undervalued at this moment in time, but not everyone sees that. And not every team has the luxury of waiting.
Buff is a 50-plus point defenceman, who some think is an all-star and some think is flawed. I believe he is overvalued at the moment.
This is what makes a market. The smart money buys low and sells high. I don't care whether it's P Kane or someone else, but I if I'm looking ahead 3-5 years, I want to sell an asset at it's peak and buy value at a discount. I believe Buff will peak soon, if he hasn't already.

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07-06-2012, 01:06 PM
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i will agree none of us should be accusing eachother of living ina fantasy world when making "fantasy" trade posts, as it seems a bit ridiculous (it sounds like"you're pretending wrong").

I would simply like to argue, that previous year production, is most likely, NOT the primary weight of a players worth. I would imagine track record, scouting report, development, age, previous accomplishments, recent accomplishmans, and projections would all be combined to determine value, with recent accomplishments being a small part, and probably considerably less valued then previous/consistent accomplishments. Or if you prefer, season average.

You will end up with a lot of bad deals if you only value other, and your own, players based off what they did last season.
Grind, I agree with what you're saying, that trade value is based on several metrics. I just completely derailed my attempt to make another point, which was that I personally would rather not see the current Winnipeg Jets package up a big trade for someone like Pat Kane, when I am just as happy with staying the course and seeing the same amount of goals and faceoff wins from, say, a Bryan Little next year.

I'm looking at it more from the perspective of team stats. Pat Kane isn't worth much to us because we'd lose too many total team goals (50 or so) to get his goals (25 or so) because of his trade value, looking at next year alone and only focusing on goals for sake of discussion.

So, my reference to fantasy hockey was just to point out that never would the real life Winnipeg Jets subtract as much production from their current lineup as it would take "add" Patrick Kane.

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07-06-2012, 01:19 PM
  #49
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Based on the above criteria, P Kane is a 25 goal, 65-70 point forward, with potential and some baggage. I think he is undervalued at this moment in time, but not everyone sees that. And not every team has the luxury of waiting.
Buff is a 50-plus point defenceman, who some think is an all-star and some think is flawed. I believe he is overvalued at the moment.
This is what makes a market. The smart money buys low and sells high. I don't care whether it's P Kane or someone else, but I if I'm looking ahead 3-5 years, I want to sell an asset at it's peak and buy value at a discount. I believe Buff will peak soon, if he hasn't already.
I would suggest posing as a Hawks fan and proposing trading Kane for Buff on the Hawks board.

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Grind, I agree with what you're saying, that trade value is based on several metrics. I just completely derailed my attempt to make another point, which was that I personally would rather not see the current Winnipeg Jets package up a big trade for someone like Pat Kane, when I am just as happy with staying the course and seeing the same amount of goals and faceoff wins from, say, a Bryan Little next year.

I'm looking at it more from the perspective of team stats. Pat Kane isn't worth much to us because we'd lose too many total team goals (50 or so) to get his goals (25 or so) because of his trade value, looking at next year alone and only focusing on goals for sake of discussion.

So, my reference to fantasy hockey was just to point out that never would the real life Winnipeg Jets subtract as much production from their current lineup as it would take "add" Patrick Kane.
This is different than your first few points. I don't want the Jets to "sell the farm" to acquire anyone either. We don't have the depth to pull something like that off.

But to suggest that Buff has near value to Patrick Kane around the league? I'm just going to say that feels very unrealistic to me and leave it at that.

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07-06-2012, 01:35 PM
  #50
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I would suggest posing as a Hawks fan and proposing trading Kane for Buff on the Hawks board.



This is different than your first few points. I don't want the Jets to "sell the farm" to acquire anyone either. We don't have the depth to pull something like that off.

But to suggest that Buff has near value to Patrick Kane around the league? I'm just going to say that feels very unrealistic to me and leave it at that.
The first ones were laced so thick with sarcasm you'd need the jaws of life to slice through it. I'm not pretending to be the general manager here, I'm taking part in some light-hearted fun discussion on the internet about the team I love.

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