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Trade Buff for ___ (all Byfuglien trade talk HERE)

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Old
07-06-2012, 01:39 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
The first ones were laced so thick with sarcasm you'd need the jaws of life to slice through it. I'm not pretending to be the general manager here, I'm taking part in some light-hearted fun discussion on the internet about the team I love.
That's cool, and I agree with you. I don't understand sometimes the fascination with getting one player if you are giving up half of your roster to get him.

It's like selling your house and everything you own for a sports car. Once you get it, what are you supposed to do with it with no garage and no money?

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07-06-2012, 01:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
Grind, I agree with what you're saying, that trade value is based on several metrics. I just completely derailed my attempt to make another point, which was that I personally would rather not see the current Winnipeg Jets package up a big trade for someone like Pat Kane, when I am just as happy with staying the course and seeing the same amount of goals and faceoff wins from, say, a Bryan Little next year.

I'm looking at it more from the perspective of team stats. Pat Kane isn't worth much to us because we'd lose too many total team goals (50 or so) to get his goals (25 or so) because of his trade value, looking at next year alone and only focusing on goals for sake of discussion.

So, my reference to fantasy hockey was just to point out that never would the real life Winnipeg Jets subtract as much production from their current lineup as it would take "add" Patrick Kane.
Ok that makes a little more sense, though there's one thing I'd like to point out, but first, I agree:we cannot sell the farm.

The problem with using total goals (or some other "total" team value) is that it ignores the worth of goals per body, which is important when you have a hard ceiling of bodies (12 f, 6 d).


So when saying 50 goals is more then 25 goals, no way should we trade 3 players with a total of 50 for 1 with 25 that's not taking in full account of value. You've lost 25 goals, but gained to spots to potentially get a combined 30 goals out of.

You need to pay attention to the team total goal count, no doubt, but you need to also factor in the value of goals per body, and how difficult it is to replace.

if the 3 guys total 50 goals, one is a 20 goals scorer and two are 15 goal scorers, you now have to look at your own roster and ensure that you have two players in a comparable slot(salary cap hit/etc) that produced less then 15 goals. You also need to weigh the scarcity of a 25 goal scorer, vs a 15 goal scorer (the ease of acquiring this upgrade in points through other means).

There's a lot more that goes into it then just total team goals gained.

When a trade of 1 for 2+ occurs it cannot be considered A for B & C in terms of improved value, but moreso A & D for B & C where D is the player on the roster replaced by player C. Add in a salary cap that further complicates the juggling you have to do.

That being said, I do agree with you, the jets are not in a position to do a quantity out for quality in trade, I just wanted to highlight why many posters get frustrated at the 4 third liners for 1 First liner trade proposals that often get bandied about(ie: NHL12's trade logic)

EDIT: I recogonize the 25 goals vs 50 was arbitrary, i've just continued to run with it. I certainly wouldn't trade a 20 goal scorer and 2 15 goals scorers for a 25 goal scorer unless i was certain i could replace those 15 goal scorers pretty easily.

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Old
07-06-2012, 01:52 PM
  #53
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I honestly think we should trade Evander Kane and Olli Jokinen for Jonathan Toews, hes just what we need in every way, Hometown boy, number one centre, and if the Chicago Blackhawks are collapsing, lets at least try and get him, and we make Slater change his number.
Hawk fan here, Toews is untouchable. Just throwing that out there.

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07-06-2012, 01:55 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by LoveYouRyanNash View Post
Hawk fan here, Toews is untouchable. Just throwing that out there.
That makes complete sense.

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07-06-2012, 02:18 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LoveYouRyanNash View Post
Hawk fan here, Toews is untouchable. Just throwing that out there.
100% agree the Hawks will never, ever trade him. I think the conversation gets interesting when free agency approaches. Im in the camp that believes Toews would play in Winnipeg. People saying otherwise are speculating with little first hand knowledge of what JT is thinking. Granted of course some people saying he would play here are just speculating .

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07-06-2012, 02:35 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by wpgsilver View Post
100% agree the Hawks will never, ever trade him. I think the conversation gets interesting when free agency approaches. Im in the camp that believes Toews would play in Winnipeg. People saying otherwise are speculating with little first hand knowledge of what JT is thinking. Granted of course some people saying he would play here are just speculating .
In the short term, what about Travis Zajac? He is a pending UFA. I want him to come home!

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Old
07-06-2012, 02:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
That's cool, and I agree with you. I don't understand sometimes the fascination with getting one player if you are giving up half of your roster to get him.

It's like selling your house and everything you own for a sports car. Once you get it, what are you supposed to do with it with no garage and no money?
Pick up chicks

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Old
07-06-2012, 03:02 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
Ok that makes a little more sense, though there's one thing I'd like to point out, but first, I agree:we cannot sell the farm.

The problem with using total goals (or some other "total" team value) is that it ignores the worth of goals per body, which is important when you have a hard ceiling of bodies (12 f, 6 d).


So when saying 50 goals is more then 25 goals, no way should we trade 3 players with a total of 50 for 1 with 25 that's not taking in full account of value. You've lost 25 goals, but gained to spots to potentially get a combined 30 goals out of.

You need to pay attention to the team total goal count, no doubt, but you need to also factor in the value of goals per body, and how difficult it is to replace.

if the 3 guys total 50 goals, one is a 20 goals scorer and two are 15 goal scorers, you now have to look at your own roster and ensure that you have two players in a comparable slot(salary cap hit/etc) that produced less then 15 goals. You also need to weigh the scarcity of a 25 goal scorer, vs a 15 goal scorer (the ease of acquiring this upgrade in points through other means).

There's a lot more that goes into it then just total team goals gained.

When a trade of 1 for 2+ occurs it cannot be considered A for B & C in terms of improved value, but moreso A & D for B & C where D is the player on the roster replaced by player C. Add in a salary cap that further complicates the juggling you have to do.

That being said, I do agree with you, the jets are not in a position to do a quantity out for quality in trade, I just wanted to highlight why many posters get frustrated at the 4 third liners for 1 First liner trade proposals that often get bandied about(ie: NHL12's trade logic)

EDIT: I recogonize the 25 goals vs 50 was arbitrary, i've just continued to run with it. I certainly wouldn't trade a 20 goal scorer and 2 15 goals scorers for a 25 goal scorer unless i was certain i could replace those 15 goal scorers pretty easily.
Good points. I realize that my prior attempts at sarcasm just derailed an otherwise good discussion about the pros and cons of the trade. What can I say I'm on holidays.

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Old
07-06-2012, 03:47 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
Pick up chicks
Awesome!

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07-06-2012, 04:30 PM
  #60
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Pick up chicks

That type of thinking makes me think that you would make an outstanding general,although you would be living in a car for awhile.

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Old
07-06-2012, 08:07 PM
  #61
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Hawk Fan, Kane had 4 less even strength points last year than he did in his 88 point season. He started the year great at center, was for some reason moved back to wing, and then carried the team at 1C when Toews went down. Losing Byfuglien is part of that on top of losing Kopecky and Brouwer, all of those guys provided net presence that made a huge difference on the power play and even strength. Quenneville thought Sharp-Toews-Kane-Keith-Seabrook was a balanced power play unit..all talent, no grit, that's not really Kane's fault. His defensive game was also leaps and bounds better than the Kane of 09-10 (8th in the league in tka), so it's a trade off, he's really as dynamic as ever when you watch the games.

I'd take Buff, at his caphit, back in heartbeat! Not for Kane though, and I'd have him back at forward, but he's done so well on D in Winni that it's a lost cause at this point. He's pretty much looked at as a core player from everything I can see.

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Old
07-06-2012, 10:34 PM
  #62
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I open to trading Hainsey, Antropov, Byfuglien & Enstrom.

I would rather have Toews than Patrick Kane.

It would be awesome If Toews decided he wants to play for his hometown Jets & leave Chicago.

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07-06-2012, 11:13 PM
  #63
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I open to trading Hainsey, Antropov, Byfuglien & Enstrom.

I would rather have Toews than Patrick Kane.

It would be awesome If Toews decided he wants to play for his hometown Jets & leave Chicago.
Toews WILL be signed by the Jets when he gets UFA status.

Patrick Kane, I fear, will be on a downward spiral.

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07-07-2012, 02:34 AM
  #64
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Toews WILL be signed by the Jets when he gets UFA status.

Patrick Kane, I fear, will be on a downward spiral.
That's cute. This Parise/Suter thing may have you in a fever, but neither won a cup with their respective team and the Hawks have a history of signing who they want long term since then.

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07-07-2012, 10:47 AM
  #65
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That's cute. This Parise/Suter thing may have you in a fever, but neither won a cup with their respective team and the Hawks have a history of signing who they want long term since then.
Nice to have some Hawks feedback--thanks.
Your people have confirmed that Toews is untouchable for the immediate future and that there is an appetite for Buff in Chicago.
What would it take, in addition to Buff, to make a Kane deal work?

PS-Huff, I may just take this to the Chicago Board, but, as a rookie, I thought I'd take my first few hits in my home rink!

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07-07-2012, 11:05 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Hollywood3 View Post
Toews WILL be signed by the Jets when he gets UFA status.

Patrick Kane, I fear, will be on a downward spiral.
I think he'll be a Blackhawk for a long time. They'll lock him up before he becomes unrestricted.

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07-07-2012, 11:55 AM
  #67
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I think he'll be a Blackhawk for a long time. They'll lock him up before he becomes unrestricted.
With the way things have gone for the last few high profile free agents like Richards, Parise and Suter and a possibility of Perry, Getzlaf and Weber next year, one begs to question - Why would a potential UFA forego a bidding war and just re-sign? Even if the player likes his current situation, he and his agent would be wise to watch the bidding war unfold and score the contract of a lifetime.

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07-08-2012, 01:50 AM
  #68
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Buff isn't a comparable player to Kane. Kane is a young top 6 forward and an all star. Buff is a 5/6 dman playing huge minutes on the PP (with offensive potential and lesser defensive skills). Consider salary and CHI laughs at this proposal.

Some WPG fans are drinking the TNSE koolaid

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07-08-2012, 02:16 AM
  #69
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Buff isn't a comparable player to Kane. Kane is a young top 6 forward and an all star. Buff is a 5/6 dman playing huge minutes on the PP (with offensive potential and lesser defensive skills). Consider salary and CHI laughs at this proposal.

Some WPG fans are drinking the TNSE koolaid
I'm sorry, but what in the hell does this mean anyway? I don't recall TN having any stance on Byfuglien vs. Kane. To my knowledge they haven't attempted to trade the two, or compare the two.

As a matter of fact, TNSE has had nothing to do with Dustin Byfuglien even being on this team or signing a contract.

To be honest, it smacks of sour grapes from a Canucks fan. Furthermore, it is the WINNIPEG JETS forum so if people want to pump Byfuglien up sky high that is there prerogitive. If they want to guzzle this mysterious koolaid that you have imagined, then all the power to them.

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Old
07-08-2012, 04:03 AM
  #70
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I'm sorry, but what in the hell does this mean anyway? I don't recall TN having any stance on Byfuglien vs. Kane. To my knowledge they haven't attempted to trade the two, or compare the two.

As a matter of fact, TNSE has had nothing to do with Dustin Byfuglien even being on this team or signing a contract.

To be honest, it smacks of sour grapes from a Canucks fan. Furthermore, it is the WINNIPEG JETS forum so if people want to pump Byfuglien up sky high that is there prerogitive. If they want to guzzle this mysterious koolaid that you have imagined, then all the power to them.
Totally agree. I hear some much about this magical kool-aid, yet I haven't seen TNSE come out on many issues and express their POV, in fact TNSE is notorious for withholding the Kool-aid.

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07-11-2012, 12:40 PM
  #71
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Interesting feedback thus far..but I'm not quite done.
I went to the HF Polls, where Buff was voted #32 defenseman. I then went to the Top 60 Forward poll and looked at 10 above and 10 below #32 (extrapolating, as the results for 35-42 are not final). I then restricted the choices to C or RW and to those 25 years of age or younger (It's my thread so I can do this sort of thing!). Here are the names that came out:
#22-32: P Kane, P Kessel
#33-42 : J Eberle, B Ryan
Just saying' that a team that sees a need for a big, offensive defenseman and has a plethora of young forwards might at least kick Buff's tires. And we would benefit from a trade for any of the above, for reasons I have now stated ad nauseum.

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Old
07-11-2012, 12:42 PM
  #72
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I literally laughed when I saw the topic title as the most recently posted topic on the main board and felt the need to come in here and make sure you were all aware of my reaction.

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07-11-2012, 12:46 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
I'm sorry, but what in the hell does this mean anyway? I don't recall TN having any stance on Byfuglien vs. Kane. To my knowledge they haven't attempted to trade the two, or compare the two.

As a matter of fact, TNSE has had nothing to do with Dustin Byfuglien even being on this team or signing a contract.

To be honest, it smacks of sour grapes from a Canucks fan. Furthermore, it is the WINNIPEG JETS forum so if people want to pump Byfuglien up sky high that is there prerogitive. If they want to guzzle this mysterious koolaid that you have imagined, then all the power to them.
It's ok... you should see his tweets about the Jets....

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Old
08-09-2012, 11:42 PM
  #74
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Byfuglien: love 'em or hate 'em

Just wanted to see how many agree with me that big Buff would be a great trade bait. I only suggest cause I get frustrated with him defensively. Who would you trade him for? (keep it as realistic as possible).

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08-09-2012, 11:48 PM
  #75
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only good trade bait if he comes back to Chicago

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