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Summer Roster Moves VI: Return of the Peg-i

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Old
07-25-2012, 08:49 AM
  #976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
09-10 (vanek 25/26 yrs old vs Ryan 22/23 yrs old)
GF per 60 ES
Ryan 1.19
Vanek 1.16

PF per 60 ES
Ryan 2.03
Vanek 2.21

GF per 60 PP
Ryan 2.95
Vanek 2.46

PF per 60 PP
Ryan 5.36
Vanek 4.18

10-11 (Vanek 26/27 yrs old vs Ryan 23/24 yrs old)
GF per 60 ES
Ryan 1.18
Vanek 1.07

PF per 60 ES
Ryan 2.54
Vanek 2.36

GF per 60 PP
Ryan 1.56
Vanek 1.97

PF per 60 PP
Ryan 3.13
Vanek 5.43

11-12 (Vanek 27/28 yrs old vs Ryan 24/25 yrs old)
GF per 60 ES
Ryan 1.22
Vanek 0.88

PF per 60 ES
Ryan 2.04
Vanek 2.12

GF per 60 PP
Ryan 1.18
Vanek 1.07

PF per 60 PP
Ryan 4.18
Vanek 5.40



and that's just scoring... let's look at puck possession...

09-10
Corsi
Ryan +16.8
Vanek -1.2

10-11
Corsi
Ryan +14.2
Vanek +4.6

11-12
Corsi
Ryan +5.9
Vanek -4.4

Opportunity/Favorable Situations....

09-10
Off Zone Start
Ryan 54.7%
Vanek 54.5%

10-11
Off Zone Start
Ryan 53.7%
Vanek 61.8%

11-12
Off Zone Start
Ryan 49.2%
Vanek 54.2%


you can review the QualCom stats as well, it will show that for the most part, Ryan plays with better linemates, but also faces tougher competition... a wash IMO.

No one in their right mind would take Vanek over Ryan... No One
This is confirmation of what most have thought. Vanek and Ryan are about equal in goal scoring ability, but Ryan's the more complete player. Vanek's a really good player, but he wouldn't fetch Ryan in a move. I thought that initially; this is the proof why.

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07-25-2012, 09:45 AM
  #977
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A Vanek-Ryan swap would look lateral to most. But two years from now when Vanek is hitting 30yrs old and Ryan is in his prime, it won't look so lateral. It's a move that would make us the same or better now, but would make us better in the long run. And isn't that the main goal?

We all know that this isn't a Cup team right now. But 2-3 years down the road when these core guys are in the prime of their careers, wouldn't we be better off with Ryan than Vanek?

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07-25-2012, 09:56 AM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Tyler2829 View Post
A Vanek-Ryan swap would look lateral to most. But two years from now when Vanek is hitting 30yrs old and Ryan is in his prime, it won't look so lateral. It's a move that would make us the same or better now, but would make us better in the long run. And isn't that the main goal?

We all know that this isn't a Cup team right now. But 2-3 years down the road when these core guys are in the prime of their careers, wouldn't we be better off with Ryan than Vanek?
exactly

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07-25-2012, 09:57 AM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
If the options are acquire Ryan without losing Vanek and acquire Ryan while losing Vanek, obviously the ideal is to keep Vanek. But if it's required that Vanek goes to get Ryan, you do it.
It just seems highly unlikely that the Ducks would want to add a player costing $2M more of cap space - especially when Getzlaf/Perry need to be extended next summer - as well as a player 2 years older than Ryan. If one of the areas the Ducks want to improve is spreading out the offense beyond the big 3 + Selanne, the rumors of them seeking multiple players rather than a 1-for-1 swap make more sense.

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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
The draft pick compensation is determined by the AAV of the first five years--or the five highest years, I can't recall--and that'd mean we'd likely need to make an offer that'd send over four 1st rounders. You then have to determine whether those players are worth four 1st rounders.
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Four first round picks wouldn't be HORRIBLE if next years draft is as deep as everyone seems to think it will be.
There's always the possibility that Regier could acquire 1st round picks via trade, as he did with Gaustad, if he were to forfeit his own in an offer sheet scenario.

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07-25-2012, 10:29 AM
  #980
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I'd also like to move Hodgson in a Booby Ryan package but can't quite come up with the other pieces...

Then roll Ennis, Pavelski and a vet 3rd line center ( Moore,Arnott) until Grigs or Gergs is ready.
I'm with you on Hodgson for Ryan. He fits the 2nd line center requirement that Anaheim seems to want.

Another thought I had about a replacement C was with Columbus acquiring Dubinsky, maybe one of Umberger or Brassard could be available for some of our defensive depth.

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07-25-2012, 10:35 AM
  #981
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I'm with you on Hodgson for Ryan. He fits the 2nd line center requirement that Anaheim seems to want.

Another thought I had about a replacement C was with Columbus acquiring Dubinsky, maybe one of Umberger or Brassard could be available for some of our defensive depth.

The very last thing Columbus needs is Defense, they have a ton of D, young and old.

They need top line scoring and a Goalie.

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07-25-2012, 11:00 AM
  #982
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The very last thing Columbus needs is Defense, they have a ton of D, young and old.

They need top line scoring and a Goalie.
Although I wouldn't rule out them adding another goalie, especially if they could acquire a proven starter, they should have enough with Mason and Bobrovsky. If they didn't think Bobrovsky could be a starter, why did they give up all those picks to get him?

It would appear they have enough Dmen, but again I wouldn't be surprised to see them add one to improve depth.

They need forwards for sure. We'd have to move some of our winger depth for their center depth, but Dubinsky and Umberger could just as easily (if not more than likely) play wing and may need Brassard for Center. I wouldn't mind giving Brassard a change of scenery to see what he could do. Maybe an Adam + 4th for Brassard trade? Adam could add scoring from the wing or fill in at Center if needed. Brassard is a big, physical center we'd like to add. They would save salary, but I'm guessing they need to add salary to reach the floor? I don't know.

If they are a cap floor team, I'd send them Adam and Leino for Brassard. I know no one wants Leino, but it gives them two offensive forwards for one and helps them reach the floor with the added salary.

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07-25-2012, 11:18 AM
  #983
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I live in C-Bus so I hear their GM.

The still believe in Mason for some reason, and see Bobrovsky competing with him. They are happy with their D, as they've added Johnson, Aucoin, Murray, and Erixon in the last 4 months on top of what they had. I would find it highly unlikely they'ed trade any of their fringe top 6 guys for defensive depth...

Columbus has literally no top line forwards... They have barely any top 6 forwards. They aren't gonna move the ones they have.

The talk here is moving some of their defensive depth for a forward prospect with top 6 potential...


Just don't see it working out.

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07-25-2012, 11:21 AM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Digable5 View Post

They need forwards for sure. We'd have to move some of our winger depth for their center depth, but Dubinsky and Umberger could just as easily (if not more than likely) play wing and may need Brassard for Center. I wouldn't mind giving Brassard a change of scenery to see what he could do. Maybe an Adam + 4th for Brassard trade? Adam could add scoring from the wing or fill in at Center if needed. Brassard is a big, physical center we'd like to add. They would save salary, but I'm guessing they need to add salary to reach the floor? I don't know.

If they are a cap floor team, I'd send them Adam and Leino for Brassard. I know no one wants Leino, but it gives them two offensive forwards for one and helps them reach the floor with the added salary.
I'd rather ride it out with Adam to be honest. From what I've seen of Brassard, he's shaping up perfectly to be a poor-man's Tim Connolly. Not someone I want to be flipping prospects and draft picks for.

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07-25-2012, 12:01 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
I live in C-Bus so I hear their GM.

The still believe in Mason for some reason, and see Bobrovsky competing with him. They are happy with their D, as they've added Johnson, Aucoin, Murray, and Erixon in the last 4 months on top of what they had. I would find it highly unlikely they'ed trade any of their fringe top 6 guys for defensive depth...

Columbus has literally no top line forwards... They have barely any top 6 forwards. They aren't gonna move the ones they have.

The talk here is moving some of their defensive depth for a forward prospect with top 6 potential...


Just don't see it working out.
On Columbus: they might have D Depth, but that doesn't make their D good. They were 3rd from the bottom in GAA last year. Jack Johnson and an 18 year old aren't going to fix that.

I'm hoping the GM has the city prepared for a long rebuilding process. They don't have have depth of talent to make a quick turnaround. Not to mention they play in a tough division.

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07-25-2012, 12:06 PM
  #986
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Nobody here cares, really. I don't blame them. They've never had anything to root for.

And their D is decent at best, but definitely the least of their problems. All I'm saying is they aren't trading one I their "top line" guys for Leopold or something like that.

The real problem is that Mason ha been the worst goalie in the NHL for the last 3 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GirgsAndGrigs View Post
On Columbus: they might have D Depth, but that doesn't make their D good. They were 3rd from the bottom in GAA last year. Jack Johnson and an 18 year old aren't going to fix that.

I'm hoping the GM has the city prepared for a long rebuilding process. They don't have have depth of talent to make a quick turnaround. Not to mention they play in a tough division.

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07-25-2012, 12:17 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
There is absolutely no track record to go on. Pegula was able to literally attract Regehr, and possibly Ehrhoff with the long-term deal he got. As far as keeping players we don't know yet.
You mentioned Regehr and Ehrhoff, two players he talked into coming here in 1-2 days. Thats with no first hand knowledge of the organziation. But you think he is going to struggle to keep someone thats already in the organization and has been enjoying Pegula's first class treatment for 1 or 2 YEARS?

I think a little bit of common sense is all you need in this situation.


Quote:
Isn't it a gamble either way?
I think you're getting too carried away with your fear of them leaving, particularly Pavelski.

You would be adding a #2 all situations center that has 63 playoff games under his belt and is only 28yrs old. If you can get a player like that you jump at the chance.

None of the players you would be giving up (Stafford, Adam and Armia) have the potential to be what Pavelski is.

Clowe is the type of player that makes your team tougher to play against and has 68 playoff games under his belt.

The playoff experience these two have is priceless.

Quote:
Problem is that #1, one way or another you can't keep all those players in the roster spots they should play if things work out.
Should play? Pavelski, Girgs and Ennis can all play wing. Having a lot of talent on your roster, many of whom can play center is in no way a problem.

Quote:
#2, if things don't work out you've given away some futures AND lost the players you traded them for.
In order for things not to work out that would mean not only did Pavelski and Clowe leave when their contracts expired. But it also means every one of Ennis, Hodgson, Grigs and Girgs didn't pan out. I'm highly doubtful that will be the case.

Quote:
I'm not gushing over G/G and assuming anything, but to find out what their quite promising talents hold they will need to play. I'd rather find out what Armia and G/G can do then to have two good players that may very well take off after 1 and 2 seasons. If those prospects do pan out, Clowe is probably not staying anyway and Pavelski may not be worth keeping depending on his contract demands, so the team might not want/need them even if they wanted to stay. If Pavelski only had one season and an extension could be agreed upon then great, but that can't happen. Clowe isn't that attractive to me to consider that option
You're trying WAY too hard to find reasons to be negative about this trade and its causing you to miss the bigger picture.


You need strength at center and when you don't have it its hard to win. Buffalo fans know this all too well. We currently have no proven top 6 centers on the roster. We have two youngsters (Ennis/Hodgson) that we have high hopes for. Adding Pavelski instantly takes the pressure off both of them for the next two years and lets them develop at their own pace. It also trickles down to Girgs and Grigs and the other center prospects (Sundher/Catenacci) and their development. There is no need to rush them and if they surprise and develop quickly in the next 2 years then you can make space for them. Its not a bad thing to deal with. It makes them force the issue if they want to play in the very earlier years of their development. Thats a great thing to have in an organization.

Even if he left after two years, the positive impact Pavelski would have on the development of our centers is huge plus of acquiring him. He is the big get in this trade. And I will restate that I'm not really worried about him leaving.


Clowe would make us a tougher team to play against and would also force Tropp back to Rochester and Adam for that matter. That would help Tropp and Adam further develop their games with bigger minutes. It would also help forward prospects like Girgs and Sundher to have more talent to play with. Obviously this would make for a stronger Amerks team which is good for all of the prospects.


When the playoffs roll around you will have two battle tested playoff players on the roster with 63 and 68 playoff games respectively under their belt. Thats a great resource to have at that time of year.


Last edited by joshjull: 07-25-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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07-25-2012, 02:14 PM
  #988
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I agree with joshjull but and I would give up almost anyone for Clowe/Pavelski.

A few shark fans agreed to a Pominville, Adam & a 3rd round pick for Clowe & Pavelski which would be a fair deal imo.

Sure, losing Pominville is though. But we're adding 2 great top 9 guys who play a solid physical game and could help this team to become a thougher team to play against.
The playoff expirience of that two is not to shabby too.

I'd also trade Leopold, Stafford and a cond. pick for Ryan.

That would give us the following roster:

Clowe - Hodgson - Vanek
Foligno - Ennis - Ryan
Leino - Pavelski - Ott
Gerbe - Hecht - Kaleta/Tropp

Sekera - Myers
Sulzer - Erhoff
Regehr - Weber
McNabb, Pysyk....


Last edited by Luceni: 07-25-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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07-25-2012, 02:35 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
I agree with joshjull but and I would give up almost anyone for Clowe/Pavelski.

A few shark fans agreed to a Pominville, Adam & a 3rd round pick for Clowe & Pavelski which would be a fair deal imo.

Sure, losing Pominville is though. But we're adding 2 great top 9 guys who play a solid physical game and could help this team to become a thougher team to play against.
The playoff expirience of that two is not to shabby too.

I'd also trade Leopold, Stafford and a cond. pick for Ryan.

That would give us the following roster:

Clowe - Hodgson - Vanek
Foligno - Ennis - Ryan
Leino - Pavelski - Ott
Gerbe - Hecht - Kaleta/Tropp

Sekera - Myers
Sulzer - Erhoff
Regehr - Weber
McNabb, Pysyk....
I don't think Anaheim would bite on that offer for Ryan, but even without that, we'd still improve our top 9.
Clowe-Hodgson-Vanek
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford
Leino-Pavelski-Ott

Got guys who are tough to play against on every line, got some skill on every line.

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07-25-2012, 02:39 PM
  #990
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I agree with joshjull but and I would give up almost anyone for Clowe/Pavelski.

A few shark fans agreed to a Pominville, Adam & a 3rd round pick for Clowe & Pavelski which would be a fair deal imo.

Sure, losing Pominville is though. But we're adding 2 great top 9 guys who play a solid physical game and could help this team to become a thougher team to play against.
The playoff expirience of that two is not to shabby too.

I'd also trade Leopold, Stafford and a cond. pick for Ryan.

That would give us the following roster:

Clowe - Hodgson - Vanek
Foligno - Ennis - Ryan
Leino - Pavelski - Ott
Gerbe - Hecht - Kaleta/Tropp

Sekera - Myers
Sulzer - Erhoff
Regehr - Weber
McNabb, Pysyk....
I do have to admit that I love the way that lineup looks, with the exception of the last D-pairing. However, I doubt that Anaheim would accept Leopold rather than Sekera or McNabb (unless maybe the pick was a 1st).

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07-25-2012, 02:45 PM
  #991
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
I don't think Anaheim would bite on that offer for Ryan, but even without that, we'd still improve our top 9.
Clowe-Hodgson-Vanek
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford
Leino-Pavelski-Ott

Got guys who are tough to play against on every line, got some skill on every line.
If we can't get Ryan, then go for Doan or Hartnell.

It's a great lineup, and with the g-men and armia developing we could be in a great position the season after this season.

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07-25-2012, 03:02 PM
  #992
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I live in C-Bus so I hear their GM.

The still believe in Mason for some reason, and see Bobrovsky competing with him. They are happy with their D, as they've added Johnson, Aucoin, Murray, and Erixon in the last 4 months on top of what they had. I would find it highly unlikely they'ed trade any of their fringe top 6 guys for defensive depth...

Columbus has literally no top line forwards... They have barely any top 6 forwards. They aren't gonna move the ones they have.

The talk here is moving some of their defensive depth for a forward prospect with top 6 potential...


Just don't see it working out.
Its 2012, you can hear Howson any where in the world

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07-25-2012, 03:38 PM
  #993
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Buffalo Sabres ‏@BuffaloSabres

The Sabres have signed Drew Schiestel to a one-year deal. #Sabres

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07-25-2012, 04:01 PM
  #994
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Buffalo Sabres ‏@BuffaloSabres

The Sabres have signed Drew Schiestel to a one-year deal. #Sabres
so many Dmen.....@_@

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07-25-2012, 04:20 PM
  #995
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Its 2012, you can hear Howson any where in the world
And people choose to do that? I don't intentionally listen to Howson.

You're saying you seek out and actively listen to Scott Howson interviews?

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07-25-2012, 04:27 PM
  #996
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
You mentioned Regehr and Ehrhoff, two players he talked into coming here in 1-2 days. Thats with no first hand knowledge of the organziation. But you think he is going to struggle to keep someone thats already in the organization and has been enjoying Pegula's first class treatment for 1 or 2 YEARS?

I think a little bit of common sense is all you need in this situation.

I think you're getting too carried away with your fear of them leaving, particularly Pavelski...
You make various well reasoned arguments, but I really don't think Clowe is all that special. Yeah he's tough and physical, but I also want a 30+ goal scorer and that's not him. Why do either Pavelski or Clowe qualify has having some great amount of playoff experience? Experience at disappointment? Pavelski doesn't happen to fit the description of a bigger center, but I actually like him and would be happy to acquire him...but two years isn't enough for me to justify losing Armia. Sorry, but I don't assume ANY player will want to stay in Buffalo. Until the organization proves it will be a consistent winner I won't think just Pegula money will change things. Winnipeg isn't THE place to be for UFAs, why should Buffalo be different (yet)?

I'd feel a lot better about the earlier idea of Pavelski for Stafford+. Throwing Armia in the mix without getting a similar player under contract for at least three seasons is not fair value. I remember some arguments a while back about Getzlaf for Myers...a player under contract for one year vs. one under contract for seven years. Even if Getzlaf was somehow much more valuable than Myers it still is a lopsided deal against Buffalo. Armia is under Buffalo's control for seven or eight years and Pavelski can't agree to an extension prior to the trade. Sorry but even though I'd like Pavelski I don't do that trade.

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07-25-2012, 05:40 PM
  #997
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You're saying you seek out and actively listen to Scott Howson interviews?
Only when the kids are out and the blinds are drawn.

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07-25-2012, 05:41 PM
  #998
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Only when the kids are out and the blinds are drawn.
#metime

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07-25-2012, 10:03 PM
  #999
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Roster we go into next year with (Baring any lockout)

Any disagreements/corrections?



Thomas Vanek-Cody Hodgson-Jason Pomminville
Marcus Foligno-Tyler Ennis-Drew Stafford
Steve Ott/Grigorenko/Girgensons-Ville Leino
Nathan Gerbe-Cody McCormick-Patrick Kaleta]

Luke Adam
Corey Tropp

Tyler Myers-Andrej Sekera
Christian Ehrhoff-Alexander Sulzer
Robyn Regyer-Jordan Leopold

Mike Weber
Brayden McNabb

Ryan Miller
Jhonas Enroth

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07-25-2012, 10:13 PM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Roster we go into next year with (Baring any lockout)

Any disagreements/corrections?



Thomas Vanek-Cody Hodgson-Jason Pomminville
Marcus Foligno-Tyler Ennis-Drew
Stafford
Steve Ott/Grigorenko/Girgensons-Ville Leino
Nathan Gerbe-Cody McCormick-Patrick Kaleta]

Luke Adam
Corey Tropp

Tyler Myers-Andrej Sekera
Christian Ehrhoff-Alexander Sulzer
Robyn Regyer-Jordan Leopold

Mike Weber
Brayden McNabb

Ryan Miller
Jhonas Enroth
3rd line sucks.
4th line sucks.

Sorry, that lineup kind of screams 10th to 14th.

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