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How the 2008 draft killed us....

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07-09-2012, 06:58 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeticDonut View Post
Yeah, Bowman was the "cap guru" and responsible of the paper work, like getting qualifying offers out on time and stuff like that.

Can't get QOs out until the GM signs them.

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07-09-2012, 08:24 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post


2) Akim Aliu - Bust although played okay in Calgary
This kid won't bust.

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07-09-2012, 10:03 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JayzinSmith View Post
Dumas was one of those guys (like Tallon and Savard) who never said anything bad about Wirtz or Pulford, so they got to stay w/ the team for as long as those two were in charge.
I had little use for any of the old crew of Dollar Bill "yes men, Part II" after a year. I appreciated their sense of loyalty to the players, coaches, etc., they liked, but it was equally bad that they often showed so little tolerance (my perception) of anybody that thought differently. Because of Dale's popularity, I was hoping he was going to be something other than a lap dog, very disappointing.

Always found it interesting that the one time WWW spent on the front office for a few years, they produced an excellent pool of prospects. I've felt bad for Rocky that his old man is seldom given credit for spending big on Mike Smith and his team since it was their work that lead to so much of the resurgence of the franchise. Then again, he did let them hire the Dumas back. Too many media and fans too quick to give credit to Tallon alone for things he never did or had plenty of help doing. The picture continues to get distorted.

Doesn't matter, Hawks got a cup, the 2008 draft isn't looking good, but there's still hope. Maybe one of the med staff ordered some time of brain surgery for Beach to speed up his progression.

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07-09-2012, 10:10 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by EmeticDonut View Post
Yeah, Bowman was the "cap guru" and responsible of the paper work, like getting qualifying offers out on time and stuff like that.
Did Bowman really draft or even handle the contracts? I know (strongly believe) he was handling many of the administrative issues, but since he was so busy with medical issues for a couple years, I thought they kept him out of the negotiations and scouting for the most part.

Was there evidence other than speculation that Bowman handled and sat on those contracts?

I don't really care if he was guilty or not, I keep reading speculation about a Bowman conspiracy but I haven't read a credible source detailing specifics. I'm wondering what I missed.

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07-09-2012, 10:31 AM
  #55
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There is not one piece of evidence that says Stan was to blame. Same goes with Dale. The only thing I heard was an underling messed up the mailing because there is no mail or courier service on Canada Day.

Now, I do know for a fact that the Hawks always waited until the last second to get their QOs out prior to the mess.


Last edited by Hawkscap: 07-09-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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07-09-2012, 10:43 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by topher42 View Post

Now, I do know for a fact that the Hawks were always waited until the last second to get their QOs out prior to the mess.
Thanks, I too thought the organization always waited late and then that time it caught up to them. I don't think they would have fired Tallon for that anyway, the extensions seemed to be similar to what he was handing out for the 2 previous years too.

I've read those allegations/speculations about a conspiracy on other sites too recently, but I've never seen anything to suggest it was some sort of heinous complacency by Tallon or sinister conspiracy by a Bowman.

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07-09-2012, 09:14 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topher42 View Post
Can't get QOs out until the GM signs them.
QO's go out long before an RFA is resigned.

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07-10-2012, 11:57 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
jesus, if all he did was 2 good trades and 2 overpayments, why did Chicago win the cup??


Oh, it must have been the Barker for Leddy trade
Mike Smith was a big reason why they won.

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07-10-2012, 11:58 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
QO's go out long before an RFA is resigned.
GM's still have to sign the QO's.

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07-10-2012, 06:32 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Mike Smith was a big reason why they won.
Smith was one of the worst GM's the team has had.

Vorobiev, Yakupov, Radulov, Munroe,
signing Alpo to coach
Berezin, Karpotsov, countless other russians

It was a known fact he was on his way out by the time the 03 draft happened, and wasn't the one pulling the strings by that point. Maybe that's why there were no russians picked?

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07-10-2012, 06:42 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
Smith was one of the worst GM's the team has had.

Vorobiev, Yakupov, Radulov, Munroe,
signing Alpo to coach
Berezin, Karpotsov, countless other russians

It was a known fact he was on his way out by the time the 03 draft happened, and wasn't the one pulling the strings by that point. Maybe that's why there were no russians picked?
2001
Craig Anderson Tuomo Ruutu
2002
Adam Burish James Wisniewski Duncan Keith Anton Babchuk
2003
Dustin Byfuglien Corey Crawford Brent Seabrook

So a guy they fired in Oct of 03 was way out as of June of 03. Nice try.

And I will leave you with this.
.
2003 Entry 156 5 Alexei Ivanov L Yaroslavl Jrs. (Russia)


Oh and one more thing, go check out the 2000 draft . Picks 7 -17 were all busts except for Ron Hainsey

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07-10-2012, 07:27 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topher42 View Post
2001
Craig Anderson Tuomo Ruutu
2002
Adam Burish James Wisniewski Duncan Keith Anton Babchuk
2003
Dustin Byfuglien Corey Crawford Brent Seabrook

So a guy they fired in Oct of 03 was way out as of June of 03. Nice try.

And I will leave you with this.
.
2003 Entry 156 5 Alexei Ivanov L Yaroslavl Jrs. (Russia)


Oh and one more thing, go check out the 2000 draft . Picks 7 -17 were all busts except for Ron Hainsey
yes, a guy fired in oct 03 was on his way out in june of 03. That's hard to believe? How long was Tallon considered on his way out?

and you posted 9 good draft picks, 4 of them on the cup team.

and yeah, 7-17 had a majority of busts. 18-30 had 9 players play over 300 games, whats your point? It's okay to take two consecutive busts?

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07-10-2012, 07:31 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
yes, a guy fired in oct 03 was on his way out in june of 03. That's hard to believe? How long was Tallon considered on his way out?

and you posted 9 good draft picks, 4 of them on the cup team.

and yeah, 7-17 had a majority of busts. 18-30 had 9 players play over 300 games, whats your point? It's okay to take two consecutive busts?
Dale Tallon

2005 draft - Hjalmarsson and a bunch of garbage (Busted with Skille 7th overall)
2006 draft - Gimme pick and a bunch of nothing
2007 draft - Gimme pick and a bunch of nothing
2008 draft - bunch of garbage
2009 draft - Olsen is ok , Pirri we have hope , Kruger is meh

Tallon made some good trades ,, That is only area he was a positive with

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07-10-2012, 07:35 PM
  #64
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The fact that the majority of players in the range busted so it wasn't just a Smith thing.

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07-10-2012, 07:49 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Dale Tallon

2005 draft - Hjalmarsson and a bunch of garbage (Busted with Skille 7th overall)
2006 draft - Gimme pick and a bunch of nothing
2007 draft - Gimme pick and a bunch of nothing
2008 draft - bunch of garbage
2009 draft - Olsen is ok , Pirri we have hope , Kruger is meh

Tallon made some good trades ,, That is only area he was a positive with
I still don't see the 06 and 07 drafts as "Gimmies"

Toews was not the overall consensus. I remember people being mad we didn't take Backstrom and we didnt take Kessel

07, more of a gimmie, but I had no idea if we were actually going to take Kane until it happened.

Skille is a bust, but I still think the concussions killed him. He was a lot better until that happened, but yeah, bust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topher42 View Post
The fact that the majority of players in the range busted so it wasn't just a Smith thing.
yeah, Smith never had a reputation of taking the Russian. Ever.

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Old
07-10-2012, 07:59 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Dale Tallon

2005 draft - Hjalmarsson and a bunch of garbage (Busted with Skille 7th overall)
2006 draft - Gimme pick and a bunch of nothing
2007 draft - Gimme pick and a bunch of nothing
2008 draft - bunch of garbage
2009 draft - Olsen is ok , Pirri we have hope , Kruger is meh

Tallon made some good trades ,, That is only area he was a positive with
Assuming of course that Tallon or any GM has that much input into the individual players that are drafted. It is the scouting staff's job to observe, evaluate and recommend prospective draft picks.

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07-10-2012, 08:05 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
I still don't see the 06 and 07 drafts as "Gimmies"

Toews was not the overall consensus. I remember people being mad we didn't take Backstrom and we didnt take Kessel

07, more of a gimmie, but I had no idea if we were actually going to take Kane until it happened.

Skille is a bust, but I still think the concussions killed him. He was a lot better until that happened, but yeah, bust.



yeah, Smith never had a reputation of taking the Russian. Ever.
^
Backstrom wasn't rated as high as Toews and given Hawks history with Europe he was never an option at time with #3 pick. Kessel was also never an option with Skille in organization. They hate each other (There families hate each other) ,,, Bobby Mac and Pierre actually talked about it at that draft so drafting a guy who hates your previous years 1st round pick wasn't viable

Hawks weren't passing up the "Good American Boy" at #1 and JVR was too much of a risk to take #1 so Kane won easily there. Turris for #1 talk was a joke as his level of competition was laughable

As for Skille ,,, Showed very little at all levels of competition (NCAA , AHL) He was a mid 1st rounder that Tallon reached for

And no one disputes that Smith favored Russians ,, He was always a Euro centric GM. He built the Jets on Euro's (Only to have the team dismantled after he was fired by idiotic anti-Euro purge)

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07-10-2012, 08:07 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Assuming of course that Tallon or any GM has that much input into the individual players that are drafted. It is the scouting staff's job to observe, evaluate and recommend prospective draft picks.
Gonna need Chris or somone with bettter memory then me to answer this

But didn't Smith's scouting staff (Which was having success ,, First Hawks GM with success at draft in longtime) dismantled by Tallon after he was hired as GM?

If so that brings all the failings of scouting department back on Tallon

I can say that in 08 he was giddy to draft Beach (Despite the warning signs) ,,, That pick was all Tallon

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07-10-2012, 08:27 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Assuming of course that Tallon or any GM has that much input into the individual players that are drafted. It is the scouting staff's job to observe, evaluate and recommend prospective draft picks.
So that means the Sharp and Versteeg trades are on the scouts not Tallon.
Same with Toews, Kane and Hjalmarsson draft picks.

So what did Tallon exactly do for us when he was GM besides massively over pay everybody?

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07-10-2012, 08:32 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
^
Backstrom wasn't rated as high as Toews and given Hawks history with Europe he was never an option at time with #3 pick. Kessel was also never an option with Skille in organization. They hate each other (There families hate each other) ,,, Bobby Mac and Pierre actually talked about it at that draft so drafting a guy who hates your previous years 1st round pick wasn't viable

Hawks weren't passing up the "Good American Boy" at #1 and JVR was too much of a risk to take #1 so Kane won easily there. Turris for #1 talk was a joke as his level of competition was laughable

As for Skille ,,, Showed very little at all levels of competition (NCAA , AHL) He was a mid 1st rounder that Tallon reached for

And no one disputes that Smith favored Russians ,, He was always a Euro centric GM. He built the Jets on Euro's (Only to have the team dismantled after he was fired by idiotic anti-Euro purge)
Laughable? Really?

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07-10-2012, 08:35 PM
  #71
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Laughable? Really?
You dont draft someone from BCHL 1st overall ,, It is not a strong league for development

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07-10-2012, 08:39 PM
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You dont draft someone from BCHL 1st overall ,, It is not a strong league for development
No you don't, generally speaking, but to call the competition laughable is an absolutely terrible exaggeration and completely ignorant. It's pretty much the best Tier II Junior A league on the continent and most would agree it's near on par with the USHL or close to it. Understand your point, but, come on.

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07-10-2012, 08:40 PM
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No you don't, generally speaking, but to call the competition laughable is an absolutely terrible exaggeration and completely ignorant.
Its a 2nd rate league

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07-10-2012, 08:41 PM
  #74
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What does that even mean?

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07-10-2012, 08:47 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Gonna need Chris or somone with bettter memory then me to answer this

But didn't Smith's scouting staff (Which was having success ,, First Hawks GM with success at draft in longtime) dismantled by Tallon after he was hired as GM?

If so that brings all the failings of scouting department back on Tallon

I can say that in 08 he was giddy to draft Beach (Despite the warning signs) ,,, That pick was all Tallon
For the record I was not defending Tallon, merely pointing out that the draft generally has little to do with the GM. It is all about the scouting staff's recommendations, the needs of the club and concensus by all involved (the war room).
That said, Tallon may have been fortunate and he took some big gambles salary-wise. As well, some would argue Hawks used smoke and mirrors to dodge some of the better teams that year, but they won the SC. No one can take that away and Tallon was a big reason they did. I figure it could have saved his career as a hockey exec.

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