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How the 2008 draft killed us....

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Old
07-10-2012, 09:46 PM
  #76
Marotte Marauder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
You dont draft someone from BCHL 1st overall ,, It is not a strong league for development
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
No you don't, generally speaking, but to call the competition laughable is an absolutely terrible exaggeration and completely ignorant. It's pretty much the best Tier II Junior A league on the continent and most would agree it's near on par with the USHL or close to it. Understand your point, but, come on.
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Its a 2nd rate league
" In 2006, Burnaby Express forward Kyle Turris announced his presence on the hockey world’s radar with a dominant performance during his team’s RBC Royal Bank Cup-winning season. Turris quickly became one of the league's best known and most heavily scouted players ever, and the buzz surrounding his talent culminated with the top pre-draft ranking by the NHL’s Central Scouting."

To say it's 2nd rate is over the top and is a ridiculous claim and flat out wrong. Players have been drafted #1 overall, from Czech Republic, Sweden, U.S. High School, OHL, WHL, QMJHL, NCAA, NAHL, Hockey East...

There have been many players from BCHL drafted and playing in the NHL. Players don't go from "2nd rate leagues" to the NHL. It is a shameful comment toward those young men.

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07-10-2012, 10:08 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
" In 2006, Burnaby Express forward Kyle Turris announced his presence on the hockey world’s radar with a dominant performance during his team’s RBC Royal Bank Cup-winning season. Turris quickly became one of the league's best known and most heavily scouted players ever, and the buzz surrounding his talent culminated with the top pre-draft ranking by the NHL’s Central Scouting."

To say it's 2nd rate is over the top and is a ridiculous claim and flat out wrong. Players have been drafted #1 overall, from Czech Republic, Sweden, U.S. High School, OHL, WHL, QMJHL, NCAA, NAHL, Hockey East...

There have been many players from BCHL drafted and playing in the NHL. Players don't go from "2nd rate leagues" to the NHL. It is a shameful comment toward those young men.
Why I said "generally speaking". Meaning, it's not the "norm" but it can happen, obviously. My point more was calling the competition, and thus, that league "laughable" as being a very uneducated and uninformed thing to say. Goes along with how things are so exaggerated all the time around here whatever the subject matter is.

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07-11-2012, 12:39 AM
  #78
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I agree with BWC on this one and the gimme picks

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07-11-2012, 05:38 AM
  #79
Marotte Marauder
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
Why I said "generally speaking". Meaning, it's not the "norm" but it can happen, obviously. My point more was calling the competition, and thus, that league "laughable" as being a very uneducated and uninformed thing to say. Goes along with how things are so exaggerated all the time around here whatever the subject matter is.
I am in complete agreement with you.

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07-11-2012, 09:26 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post

Tallon made some good trades, That is only area he was a positive with
All the credit Tallon gets for making trades really makes me scratch my head. I'm not convinced he was a net + when it came to trades. That's assuming Pulford wasn't the one pulling most of the deals anyway. I thought Dale's trading record his first 3 years was a negative overall given what he had to work with and what he landed, plenty of wasted assets.

I thought Niemi and Hendry were unappreciated signings by Dale. They got much more use out of Hendry than they probably should have, and there were plenty of gms in 2008 that may have grabbed Niemi if he was hanging around much longer.

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07-11-2012, 10:05 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
I am in complete agreement with you.
Oh ok, I was confused when you quoted me in your post. Nevermind!

And Doug, I'm in total agreement with you on Hendry.

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07-11-2012, 10:05 AM
  #82
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Getting Havlat, Versteeg & Sharp for what he gave up was great

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Old
07-11-2012, 11:39 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Getting Havlat, Versteeg & Sharp for what he gave up was great
I agree with the last two.

Verteeg was an absolute steal.

Sharp worked out well, I really like him. One of the benefits of having such a garbage team coming out of the lockout was that Yawney had plenty of ice time for him. There was little hope that he would turn out well after his first 2 years in Chicago getting top 6 ice time.

In the long run it worked out great for Chicago, I'm not sure how Yawney felt about having him on the roster with so few decent options. Tallon kept him up when almost every gm wouldn't have for quite a while there and history proved him right and deserves credit. The context of the Sharp trade changed after 2010. He was very expensive and ate a ton of ice time he maybe shouldn't have had, but I wouldn't want it any other way in hindsight. If Bowman pulls a move similar to that, I'll be complaining and praying it works out years later.

Havlat and his contract held the franchise back for 2 years and was a big reason the franchise couldn't do anything before the 2009 season. He signed for 3 years at 13.5% of the cap or something like that, it was a huge contract if I recall. If Havlat wasn't holding out for a big contract, it might have been a good trade, as it was, it did more harm than good in my opinion. Havlat and Smolinski killed the Hawks' budget for 2007. Smolinski turned into Aliu after he was traded to Vancouver. Overall I think the Havlat trade did more harm than good regardless of what was given up because of what it was going to take to retain him.

I've heard a rumor about "DR. Marty" self diagnosing an ankle injury to put him out for a few weeks before seeing a doctor or med staff and that may have been a contributing trigger for the "commit to the Indian" tirade I loved so much because of Savard's reaction to "Dr. Marty's" prognosis. I've only heard it once and I've never heard of any one backing it up, but it's a fun story to add to the legend of Havlat. (Don't take the rumor as anything more than that, but I'll continue to try to get that one validated, I enjoy the Marty stories, such a waste of awesome talent).

The trades that are often ignored were the acquisitions of but not limited to:
Kevyn Adams, Zyuzin, Danny Richmond (Pt 1), Holmqvist, a number of the contract dumps, Bochenski (ate my words with the subsequent Bochenski trade), bringing Calder back (big cap hit), etc.

He wasted a ton of assets for 3 years. While there is no mistake that about how the Versteeg and Sharp trade worked out, I think his body of work when it comes to trades was a net negative. I still haven't learned about how much authority Tallon even had most of his first couple years, so when I criticize him, I'm not sure if I should be targeting the Dumas, Pulford, Tallon, a combination of the 2, or all 3.

Tying it back into the 2008 draft, the 2nd round pick from that one was in the Havlat trade, (Schultz picked right after that one). Tallon also traded up to grab Lalonde which was looking like an astute move until last season. Ben Smith was grabbed with the pick that Tallon took when he traded Lapointe, and there's some hope there.

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07-11-2012, 12:48 PM
  #84
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Havlat was the only hockey player on our team back then... he never held us back

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07-11-2012, 01:22 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Havlat was the only hockey player on our team back then... he never held us back
His cap hit and health were crippling for 2 years for a team operating well below the cap and in desperate need for depth, skill, and needed to establish some veteran roster continuity all over the place.

The contract largely removed him/Pulford from the pretty strong 06 and 07 FA classes where they had more limited resources and took him/them out of much of the trade market too because of the WWW budget constraints. It was bad enough that they had to overpay to get people to play in Chicago, but he bet big on a bad horse.

I think an argument could be made that he wasn't the best professional either. On the other hand, if he had spent differently or traded for a different player, the Hawks might not have landed the Kaner. Even though I thought/think it was a very bad gamble at the time everything ended up well 4 years later.

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07-11-2012, 02:42 PM
  #86
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You can never look at the draft in hindsight and judge it. Especially 4 years ago. Cause every team f'd up on datsyuk.

Beach is a bust, probably should trade him as he really has no role here in chicago. Plays like Iginla (less talented).

Sean Lalonde is a top D prospect. Could se some time this year, may never make the NHL.

Ben Smith is also great player, who has good potential but is likely to be a bottom 6 forward.

We have one of the best depth systems in the NHL, 2/3 good picks is not killing us. And as far as Crawford goes, he's a good goalie. Kent Simpson is a great goalie in our system.

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07-11-2012, 02:45 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWOway57 View Post
You can never look at the draft in hindsight and judge it. Especially 4 years ago. Cause every team f'd up on datsyuk.

Beach is a bust, probably should trade him as he really has no role here in chicago. Plays like Iginla (less talented).

Sean Lalonde is a top D prospect. Could se some time this year, may never make the NHL.

Ben Smith is also great player, who has good potential but is likely to be a bottom 6 forward.

We have one of the best depth systems in the NHL, 2/3 good picks is not killing us. And as far as Crawford goes, he's a good goalie. Kent Simpson is a great goalie in our system.
This post makes no sense.

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07-11-2012, 02:46 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by TWOway57 View Post
You can never look at the draft in hindsight and judge it. Especially 4 years ago. Cause every team f'd up on datsyuk.

Beach is a bust, probably should trade him as he really has no role here in chicago. Plays like Iginla (less talented).

Sean Lalonde is a top D prospect. Could se some time this year, may never make the NHL.

Ben Smith is also great player, who has good potential but is likely to be a bottom 6 forward.

We have one of the best depth systems in the NHL, 2/3 good picks is not killing us. And as far as Crawford goes, he's a good goalie. Kent Simpson is a great goalie in our system.


These specifically are some of the most bizarre things I have ever read around here.

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07-11-2012, 02:54 PM
  #89
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How else can you judge a draft other than hindsight? I don't get this thought process that you can't criticize bad picks. How else are we supposed to judge the draft? Oh, this pick is loved on HFboards, so that is a good pick and a pick that is frowned upon(like Andrew Shaw..derp) is a bad pick. Can't give any credit for the Andrew Shaw pick since most didn't like it.

It is the scouting and GMs job to not pick the player most liked on HF, but to pick the player that becomes a good player. We can't use some cop out like "can't judge the draft because of hindsight". I guess we can't give credit to the Wings for drafting Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom because not many people knew who they were.

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07-11-2012, 03:23 PM
  #90
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This is the first time I've heard anybody saying that getting Havlat for Mark Bell and change was a bad deal for us.


what the hell.

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07-11-2012, 04:35 PM
  #91
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This is the first time I've heard anybody saying that getting Havlat for Mark Bell and change was a bad deal for us.


what the hell.
Havlat was only being traded because he wanted a 1 year deal to get to UFA status quicker. He was an extremely high end, high risk, high maintenance player coming off of injury. Not the kind of guy you bring in when the team has no foundation to speak of. Trading for him is fine and I thought it was going to be a great opportunity until they gave him 3 years at 18 million. It was a ridiculous contract at the time (maybe even now given the circumstances although the market has changed) and nullified the value of the trade because of the team's limited resources.

6 million was 13.5% of the cap. If Bowman traded for a RFA and paid 9.5 million for 3 years after the trade (13.5% now), almost everybody would be up in arms like some people were then.


Last edited by hockeydoug: 07-11-2012 at 04:36 PM. Reason: I meant to say "almost" everybody instead of overgeneralizing
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Old
07-11-2012, 04:42 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by hockeydoug View Post
Havlat was only being traded because he wanted a 1 year deal to get to UFA status quicker. He was an extremely high end, high risk, high maintenance player coming off of injury. Not the kind of guy you bring in when the team has no foundation to speak of. Trading for him is fine and I thought it was going to be a great opportunity until they gave him 3 years at 18 million. It was a ridiculous contract at the time (maybe even now given the circumstances although the market has changed) and nullified the value of the trade because of the team's limited resources.

6 million was 13.5% of the cap. If Bowman traded for a RFA and paid 9.5 million for 3 years after the trade (13.5% now), almost everybody would be up in arms like some people were then.
there was nobody on the team to speak of, Dale knew he had to overpay to get people to want to play here again. it worked. Plus, GM's knew that the 39 mil cap hit was going to go up a lot the next year, and it did. it went up to 48 million in one year.

And Havlat played great for us, I was very upset to see him leave.

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07-11-2012, 05:26 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
there was nobody on the team to speak of, Dale knew he had to overpay to get people to want to play here again. it worked. Plus, GM's knew that the 39 mil cap hit was going to go up a lot the next year, and it did. it went up to 48 million in one year.

And Havlat played great for us, I was very upset to see him leave.
The cap went 44-50-56. Chicago didn't have all that money to play with until after the 2008 season was underway because of WWW, so it was different than having full cap space to begin with. I already acknowledged he had to overpay to land FAs, but Havlat's contract was ridiculous by almost any standard and more so given the restrictions Wirtz had put on the front office (why I do cut Tallon slack in some areas).

I thought Havlat was great at times too. The problem was more than the other half of the time he was in Chicago. Once Pulford/Tallon finished setting back Yawney's coaching career and started to kill Savard's I was convinced it was a large mistake to have taken a player and personality like Havlat on with that restrictive contract too. That was my opinion and his good year in 2009 didn't change that for me.

If you thought he was a worthwhile acquistion and contract, that's fair, we'll agree to disagree.

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Old
07-11-2012, 06:58 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Gonna need Chris or somone with bettter memory then me to answer this

But didn't Smith's scouting staff (Which was having success ,, First Hawks GM with success at draft in longtime) dismantled by Tallon after he was hired as GM?

If so that brings all the failings of scouting department back on Tallon

I can say that in 08 he was giddy to draft Beach (Despite the warning signs) ,,, That pick was all Tallon
Fired in late 2003:
- Assistant GM Nick Beverley
- Dir. of Player Evaluation Marshall Johnston
- Dir. of Amateur Scouting Bill Lesuk
- Amateur Scout Joe Yannetti

Tallon replaced Beverley, Dumas promoted to replace Yannetti. Always a good idea to fire scouts and not replace them.

Beverley has been a scout w/ Nashville for 5+ years, and Johnston's been Carolina's Director of Pro Scouting for 6+ years. I don't know where Lesuk or Yannetti are; Yannetti might be retired (his son scouts for LA).

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