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Should we strike while the Iron is hot with Vanek?

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Old
07-08-2012, 03:33 PM
  #1
nEaLB4ZoD
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Should we strike while the Iron is hot with Vanek?

Apparently Scott Howson is demanding a kings ransom for Rick Nash and a lot of teams are coming close to matching it, the Rangers maybe being the hottest pursuer. In two years the Sabres have 3 huge free agents. Vanek, Pominville and Miller. Also next year has a great free agent class and if the Sabres spend next off-season, they will have trouble resigning all of these 3.

So maybe now is the time for Regier to be proactive and sneak in and steal a big package that was meant for Nash with Vanek. These two are almost identical statistically. One trade proposal I saw somewhere on here was Dubinksy, JT Miller and a first and I think that would be worth it. For those who don't know JT Miller http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/jonathan_miller You could even sign Semin to a 2 year deal for 6 million or maybe even a little more to replace Vanek. Then you are basically getting a good 3rd line center, a great two-way forward prospect and a first for free. So the Sabres top 3 lines could look something like this next season:

Semin Hodgson Pominville
Foligno Ennis Stafford
Ott Dubinsky Gerbe/Doan

Obviously signing both Semin and Doan would be tough but a man can dream can't he? If we were to trade Vanek I don't think Semin would turn down a $6-7 million even if it was just for 2-3 years.

So basically what I am proposing that we trade Vanek now because he has comparable value to Nash and the Nash proposals are apparently very hefty. Vanek's scoring could be replaced through free agency with a 2 year deal with a guy like Semin. Pegula could offer Semin $12 mllion over 2 years and give him $10 mil up front. You could add a good third line center, whether it be Dubinksy or something else and round out the roster.

You do this while trying to add a very good forward prospect and a 1st. Giving the organization more assets and more ammo when making future deals. Also we avoid the dilemma of having to try and resign our big 3 all in the same off-season, and knowing that we will have one less long term deal to worry about two years from now will give us more options during next year's deep free agent class.

So that is what I am thinking. Darcy should take advantage of the market that Nash bidders have made and try to snag a mega deal for the Sabres. Simultaneously try to work out deals to trade Vanek and sign Semin. I honestly thinking signing Semin wouldn't be hard we that much up front. The problem is I don't think Darcy would ever do this.


Last edited by joshjull: 07-08-2012 at 04:16 PM.
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07-08-2012, 03:40 PM
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Rob Paxon
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My problem with entertaining these sort of conversations is we have no idea if Semin and Doan are going to sign here but if we wait a few days we'll know.

I'm open to trading Vanek whether or not we sign Semin but only for players that will help longterm, which means we'd be taking a step back in the short term. Signing Semin would prevent that step back. Signing Semin and keeping Vanek would make is a lot more competitive in the short term.

Semin is going to sign somewhere soon, and then we can eliminate one aspect of these hypotheticals. I'd say there is about a 5% chance of Doan signing here, but we will also know that within a few days hopefully, but I suspect it may take longer in his case.

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07-08-2012, 03:52 PM
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No. While there are many shortcomings with Vanek (doesn't create his own offense, not great defensively, overpaid) keeping him around will be important for the development of our young centers. His ability to do something once they get him the puck will be key to building the young guys confidence. Moving him leaves an enormous hole in the organization. This is a team that has done the "scoring by committee" thing since the co-capitans left. We haven't been successful with that philosphy. Moving the only high end goal scorer doesn't make sense given the scoring in bulk method hasn't worked.

I base most of this on my expectation that Semin isn't coming here. If he is then I'd consider moving Vanek. Semin is going to get 5+ years at 6+ mil. Per year money isn't what players are looking for because the contracts are guaranteed. As such term is more important than money. Add to that Buffalo isn't a contender now. Doesn't have any Russians that are assured of being on the roster in 2012. This is important because Semin's english is reportedly not very good. Add to that a coach that has a poor reptation handling Eastern European players and Buffalo being well, Buffalo.

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07-08-2012, 03:54 PM
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Wtb a mod to fix the spelling in the title. My ocd-dar is going nuts.

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07-08-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CupWanted View Post
No. While there are many shortcomings with Vanek (doesn't create his own offense, not great defensively, overpaid) keeping him around will be important for the development of our young centers. His ability to do something once they get him the puck will be key to building the young guys confidence. Moving him leaves an enormous hole in the organization. This is a team that has done the "scoring by committee" thing since the co-capitans left. We haven't been successful with that philosphy. Moving the only high end goal scorer doesn't make sense given the scoring in bulk method hasn't worked.

I base most of this on my expectation that Semin isn't coming here. If he is then I'd consider moving Vanek. Semin is going to get 5+ years at 6+ mil. Per year money isn't what players are looking for because the contracts are guaranteed. As such term is more important than money. Add to that Buffalo isn't a contender now. Doesn't have any Russians that are assured of being on the roster in 2012. This is important because Semin's english is reportedly not very good. Add to that a coach that has a poor reptation handling Eastern European players and Buffalo being well, Buffalo.
Yup, all of this. Vanek's value to this organization is huge right now. IF Semin signs here, then we can entertain moving him. Otherwise, a solid no from me. Hodgson had pretty good chemistry building with him toward the end of the season. His development is going to be helped greatly by having a proven finisher on his wing. If we move Vanek for a 3rd liner and futures, Hodgson's gonna have a heck of an uphill battle in terms of progressing.

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07-08-2012, 04:05 PM
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If they signed Semin and then moved Vanek for a package of I would be very happy with that situation playing out. I think that makes us better now (Vanek replaced with Semin+Dubi) and better for the future (Good prospect + 1st).

Pretty much the ideal situation, but I'm not getting my hopes up. If they don't sign Semin, then I want no part of moving Vanek. That's just begging for a top 5 pick, which is not where this team should be IMO.

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07-08-2012, 04:40 PM
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Been gone all day, are we for sure pursuing Semin?

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07-08-2012, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Been gone all day, are we for sure pursuing Semin?
This was my question as well, I thought all signs pointed at us not going after Semin.

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07-08-2012, 05:04 PM
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The iron is so hot that nobody has pulled the trigger on Nash. We should see what he actually returns before deciding but personally I am for keeping Vanek.

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07-08-2012, 05:20 PM
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Couple questions I have before I say yes, or no.

1. Does Ruff really have a problem with Vanek? If there is something to the story, then yes, trade him.

2. Are we in a win-now mode? If yes, then two options.

A. Yes, trade him. Trade him for an established player that is going to produce and fill a need on the team. Stastny is the example that comes to mind.

B. No, don't trade him. If we're in a win-now mode, how can we trade our true, offensive player????

3. We are internally sick of the old core, and the powers that be have already decided he's gone. If there is smoke, there's fire. Roy spoke, he was dealt. I can see similarities between the two but Vanek keeps his mouth shut. Wouldn't surprise me that he wants to be dealt, especially getting away from Ruff. Got a little side tracked, if they're sick of old core, I think they know next year or two are 'Cup' worthy so trade him for futures, pr players that can be part of future core.

I could go either way here. IMO, Vanek should be used differently on the team so I can see trading him but he's a stud so I want to keep him. As I said in the summer moves thread, I think one decent big body center, without taking out a top 9 player makes us a formidable team this year, with Armia and the Gmen coming soon.

I love the Sabres, I want to win so I'd like to keep Vanek, trade some of our young guys (Gerbe, Pysk, Adam, picks) to get that center and see what a healthy team can do THIS year. Roy gone is an addition, couple big guys in gives the team a little more confidence and another year for Ennis, Myers, McNabb, Foligno and Lenio too. Get me that center and we're as competitive as anyone. Keep TV

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07-08-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Been gone all day, are we for sure pursuing Semin?
There are no rumors of Regier liking Semin.

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07-08-2012, 06:12 PM
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Poms and Tom are about the only two i would want to keep from the first rochester core. They seem to geniunely want to win with Buffalo. Drew looks like he could care less and Miller seems as though his head just isnt in Buffalo all the time.I and i emphasize I .. believe we still have a trade lined up for ryan around miller and a dman. But darcy is trying to find a replacement starter.
Vanek is the least of our worries, he creates his own opportunities in front of the net, his d game improved drastically last year and he is a leader on this team, if anything id be looking into the beginning stages of an extension.

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07-08-2012, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by VanekTheMvp View Post
Vanek is the least of our worries, he creates his own opportunities in front of the net, his d game improved drastically last year and he is a leader on this team
Agreed - frankly, I'm not sure where all the Vanek-bashing is coming from. He's the purest goal-scorer in the organization and has matured finally into a leader and all-around player. Seven months ago, before his string of injuries led to his stats nosediving, he and Pominville were carrying the team on their backs.

With a team starving for offensive talent, dealing Vanek rather than keeping him and adding another scorer to help him seems illogical to me.

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07-08-2012, 07:39 PM
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If it makes us better long term then yes

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07-08-2012, 07:52 PM
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Nash hits a little more, but they are about even. I'm sure the Sabres would consider doing it but I think the BJ's want to feel like runaway winers, so they are going to want Vanek+. Nash isn't worth more than Vanek.

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07-08-2012, 07:52 PM
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Agreed - frankly, I'm not sure where all the Vanek-bashing is coming from.
Roy is gone. The Wheel-o-Bashing now spins to Vanek

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07-08-2012, 08:28 PM
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Rob Paxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanekTheMvp View Post
Poms and Tom are about the only two i would want to keep from the first rochester core. They seem to geniunely want to win with Buffalo. Drew looks like he could care less and Miller seems as though his head just isnt in Buffalo all the time.I and i emphasize I .. believe we still have a trade lined up for ryan around miller and a dman. But darcy is trying to find a replacement starter.
Vanek is the least of our worries, he creates his own opportunities in front of the net, his d game improved drastically last year and he is a leader on this team, if anything id be looking into the beginning stages of an extension.
If the Sabres were to trade Miller to the Ducks then Hiller would be coming back as our new starter, as there's not much point to the Ducks having both at nearly an $11 million cap hit.

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07-08-2012, 08:54 PM
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Roy is gone. The Wheel-o-Bashing now spins to Vanek
Leino and Stafford are much more deserving candidates for skepticism / pessimism going into a new season than Vanek is.

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07-08-2012, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
If the Sabres were to trade Miller to the Ducks then Hiller would be coming back as our new starter, as there's not much point to the Ducks having both at nearly an $11 million cap hit.
Logically speaking that would be the chain of events but i dont think we would be 100% sold on Hiller. If we could detour away from that Ana might be more willing to deal Ryan if they could use hiller to aquire the elusive 2c they clamor about

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07-08-2012, 09:46 PM
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I'd move Vanek and other pieces if it makes us a better team. Maybe he's the center piece for Bobby Ryan, that's okay. Maybe he's involved in getting a number one center, that's okay. But Dubinski (as a 3rd line C), JT Miller, and a pick? Why freakin bother?

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07-08-2012, 09:51 PM
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Rob Paxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanekTheMvp View Post
Logically speaking that would be the chain of events but i dont think we would be 100% sold on Hiller. If we could detour away from that Ana might be more willing to deal Ryan if they could use hiller to aquire the elusive 2c they clamor about
I don't think there would really be a better goalie available that we could reasonably acquire but I suppose I'd have to take a look around the league rosters. He's not the longterm solution of course as he's only a year younger than Miller, but if the idea were that Miller's contract + trade value isn't worth his contribution to winning, then the trade would obviously make sense and buy us as much time to find a replacement as we'd otherwise have.

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07-08-2012, 10:02 PM
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my friend told me they just traded Vanek. Assuming this is untrue

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07-08-2012, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ThatCrazyRangerFan View Post
my friend told me they just traded Vanek. Assuming this is untrue
You forgot the





Now .... If you're serious .... C'mon, you know better than to post what you just posted without searching around for a little while on reputable sites to see if it's true or not.

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07-08-2012, 11:51 PM
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my friend told me they just traded Vanek. Assuming this is untrue
Unless your friend is Darcy Regier, then yes, I would say that's probably untrue.

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07-08-2012, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ThatCrazyRangerFan View Post
my friend told me they just traded Vanek. Assuming this is untrue
I can't remember the last time a trade happened after 10pm. But yeah normally you'd want to look that up first.

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