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Ales Hemsky To Pittsburgh

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Old
07-07-2012, 11:48 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Not Gagner?
Not Gagner. He's underrated too, but not to the levels Hemsky is. Someone tried to legitimately compare him to Kristian Huselius for crying out loud.

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07-07-2012, 12:01 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Yet, apparently cherry picked half seasons do. Hemsky missed a small amount of time at the beginning of last season while healing from surgery, but then played the entire season, while taking some pretty big hits. He is healthy again, and producing again. He has had just over half a season in his career where producing was an issue, if it was any year but last you would only have "injuries, lolz", which are in his past. Hemsky is the most underrated player on HF.
You apparently have trouble with the concept of "cherry-picking". It involves being selective about a sample size in order to support an opinion.

Nobody has to say "But look at this part of his season!" to justify Crosby's play. Whenever he plays, he produces better than anyone in the world.

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You need to look beyond stats. When he first came back last year, he played awful. He was tentative, and not very effective carrying the puck. About a month before the trade deadline, he took a pretty big hit, and it was like it clicked, that he knew he could handle a hit. His game came around almost instantly. He scored a vast majority of his points after that hit, and was more effective in every situation. Hemsky was one of the Oilers best producers in the last quarter of the season. I don't think you can question his production.
Again, a quarter-season does not a player make. If it did, Tyler Kennedy would be a 30 goal scorer based on the end of the '10-'11 season. If Oilers fans want to get anything approaching "prime Hemsky value", Hemsky will have to prove he can produce at that level again for a full year.

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07-07-2012, 12:10 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
You apparently have trouble with the concept of "cherry-picking". It involves being selective about a sample size in order to support an opinion.

Nobody has to say "But look at this part of his season!" to justify Crosby's play. Whenever he plays, he produces better than anyone in the world.



Again, a quarter-season does not a player make. If it did, Tyler Kennedy would be a 30 goal scorer based on the end of the '10-'11 season. If Oilers fans want to get anything approaching "prime Hemsky value", Hemsky will have to prove he can produce at that level again for a full year.
Again, Hemsky has had a half season (or just over it) of poor play in his career. You are grabbing one selective half season and saying that his value is relative to that, despite years of solid play, including the end of this most recent season. Pick stats all you want, the fact remains that people who know more than how to look at his point total know what was going on with Hemsky last year, and why he had the worst half season of his career last year. They also know why he pulled himself out of that funk and produced well to finish the season off. So no need to tell me that I'm cherry picking when I'm using a career of production as well as the logic behind his performance and you are the one grasping at straws based on what you read on the stats page. If one of us is cherry picking, it is you sir.

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07-07-2012, 12:26 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Again, Hemsky has had a half season (or just over it) of poor play in his career. You are grabbing one selective half season and saying that his value is relative to that, despite years of solid play, including the end of this most recent season. Pick stats all you want, the fact remains that people who know more than how to look at his point total know what was going on with Hemsky last year, and why he had the worst half season of his career last year. They also know why he pulled himself out of that funk and produced well to finish the season off. So no need to tell me that I'm cherry picking when I'm using a career of production as well as the logic behind his performance and you are the one grasping at straws based on what you read on the stats page. If one of us is cherry picking, it is you sir.
I'm the only one of us taking into consideration both career performance and a very poor season last year, chief.

If you're expecting anything approaching full value for Hemsky at this point, after both his cumulative injuries and 36 point season, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment. No GM is naive enough to simply write off a year like that.

Likewise, I'm not expecting anything approaching full value for Martin, despite being a legitimate top-pairing defenseman every year since the lockout save the last one.

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07-07-2012, 01:27 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Watch him play 70 games and get 70 points. My scenario is more likely.
You think it's more likely that he's going to reach a GP total that he's hit 4 times in 9 years (and 0 times in the last 3 years), a point total he's hit twice over 9 years, and a PPG pace that he's hit once over 9 years (over a 22-game season) than it is that he'll have an injury-shortened season?

Your newsletters, I'd like to subscribe to them.

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07-12-2012, 10:06 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Why are people even discussing Crosby here?

Crosby's value pre concussion = irrelevant

Crosby's value post concussion = irrelevant

Crosby's value is meaningless because he would not be moved. Hemsky on the other hand has been rumoured to be moved several times now, his injuries are definitely relevant to his value.
Thank you!

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07-12-2012, 10:28 AM
  #107
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Who would you go after then? What options do you see out there?
Shane Doan, and it won't cost any assets..

He's a proven leader that can produce, play gritty, and he's a RH shot in the top 6.

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07-12-2012, 11:58 AM
  #108
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Earlier this offseason, at the peak of the Paul Martin hatefest, I probably would have been down to trade Martin for Hemsky straight up.

But now, especially with Michalek gone, this makes absolutely no sense for the Penguins. We are talking about a guy who hasn't played a full season since 'Nam due to various injuries. Do you guys really think Ales Hemsky could adjust his game to play under Bylsma? Do you guys really think that Ales Hemsky would survive in the Atlantic Division?

I've always been a fan of Hemsky and his dangles, it's fun to play with the guy on NHL 13, but come on. Shero is a lot smarter than that.

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07-12-2012, 12:03 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I want a top four NHL defenseman who has showed signs of slipping and has a contract that isn't the greatest, and a prospect defenseman who shows promise. If Martin was on a better contract and showed more signs of being able to return to form, I would be more willing to do it straight across.
Aren't Martin and Hemsky basically in the same situation? Both coming off bad seasons, and both needing to prove they're still top line/top pairing players?

I honestly don't understand why HF says Martin's value is negative after one bad season (before that, he was universally regarded as a top-30 defender in the league), while Oilers fans still want a king's ransom for Hemsky, who had an equally bad season.

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07-12-2012, 12:06 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
Shero is a lot smarter than that.
I agree with most of what you said... until this part. I honestly don't get comments like this. You're projecting your views of a player onto Shero. Most Pen fans would have drafted Forsberg with the 8th pick in June... Shero grapped Derrik Pouliout. So while I honestly don't see Hemsky coming here (more due to the asking price than anything), I wouldn't mind it only to show that some fans are complete idiots.

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07-12-2012, 12:13 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Aren't Martin and Hemsky basically in the same situation? Both coming off bad seasons, and both needing to prove they're still top line/top pairing players?

I honestly don't understand why HF says Martin's value is negative after one bad season (before that, he was universally regarded as a top-30 defender in the league), while Oilers fans still want a king's ransom for Hemsky, who had an equally bad season.
The big difference is Martin has a 3yr contract, with NTC and NMC in it. Were Hemsky's contract is just 2yrs with no clauses. A team could take the chance with Hemsky and if he doesn't work out traded him or send him to the minors. You cannot do that with Martin. Hemsky's value is also hurt by his injuries and from the looks of things the problem has been solved and he was back too form at the WC.

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07-12-2012, 12:20 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I agree with most of what you said... until this part. I honestly don't get comments like this. You're projecting your views of a player onto Shero. Most Pen fans would have drafted Forsberg with the 8th pick in June... Shero grapped Derrik Pouliout. So while I honestly don't see Hemsky coming here (more due to the asking price than anything), I wouldn't mind it only to show that some fans are complete idiots.
All I'm saying is that regardless of popular fan opinion (wanting to trade Martin), Shero stuck it out and held onto Martin. Shero is a curious GM - he's passive when he needs to be, often times when fans are pressuring him not to be. But as the Staal trade and Michalek dump has shown us he will make moves when he needs to. I guess my point being that Shero knows a lot more than any of us on HFBoards. In the end it seems more often than not, he makes the right move for the future of our team.

As for Hemsky coming here, I think it's a lot more than just the asking price. Hemsky would get his **** kicked in all season playing in the Atlantic. There's no way he would make it through a whole season in Bylsma's system with his history of upper-body injuries. His shoulder would get destroyed first game against NYR or PHI.

I'd imagine his asking price has come down over the past couple years anyway because the Oil has been shopping him so hard.

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07-12-2012, 12:28 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
The big difference is Martin has a 3yr contract, with NTC and NMC in it. Were Hemsky's contract is just 2yrs with no clauses. A team could take the chance with Hemsky and if he doesn't work out traded him or send him to the minors. You cannot do that with Martin. Hemsky's value is also hurt by his injuries and from the looks of things the problem has been solved and he was back too form at the WC.
I'd say Hemsky's injury history balances out the concerns over Martin's NTC.

Besides, you're missing my overall point. Oilers fans still want top dollar for Hemsky, despite him coming off a very bad (statistically speaking) season. Yet Martin's seen as having negative value after -- wait for it -- one bad season.

Both players come with inherent risks, and both players have to prove they're still capable of being worth their salary. So for the Oiler fan I quoted to say it would take Martin AND a prospect like Despres to even things out, is what I was disagreeing in terms of their relative value.

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07-12-2012, 12:36 PM
  #114
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You can be very sure this isn't true, but so is a lot you've said lately.
Everything that I'm saying is true,What you're saying Seachd is wrong.

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07-12-2012, 12:49 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
All I'm saying is that regardless of popular fan opinion (wanting to trade Martin), Shero stuck it out and held onto Martin. Shero is a curious GM - he's passive when he needs to be, often times when fans are pressuring him not to be. But as the Staal trade and Michalek dump has shown us he will make moves when he needs to. I guess my point being that Shero knows a lot more than any of us on HFBoards. In the end it seems more often than not, he makes the right move for the future of our team.

As for Hemsky coming here, I think it's a lot more than just the asking price. Hemsky would get his **** kicked in all season playing in the Atlantic. There's no way he would make it through a whole season in Bylsma's system with his history of upper-body injuries. His shoulder would get destroyed first game against NYR or PHI.

I'd imagine his asking price has come down over the past couple years anyway because the Oil has been shopping him so hard.
He's played in the northwest his entire career and has had goons running at him the entire time. I don't think it'd be a huge difference moving to the atlantic tbh.

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07-12-2012, 02:07 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I can't imagine any team would rather ignore Hemsky's injury history (and subsequent drop in performance) and trade significant assets for him than a) sign Semin/Mueller for zero assets, or b) trade significant assets for other, more durable, younger, scoring wing options.
People are greatly underestimating Hemsky. Understand this guy plays with a third line center (at best) with a bunch of miserable puck movers and also has the second worst travel schedule. This kid has really had no help in his time in Edmonton but he did average almost 0.75 pts/gm once healthy last year. I also understand he has a "verbal" NMC with Kevin Lowe.

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07-12-2012, 02:11 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
He's played in the northwest his entire career and has had goons running at him the entire time. I don't think it'd be a huge difference moving to the atlantic tbh.
Considering his history, it probably would not take a huge difference to qualify as getting the **** kicked out of him either.

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07-12-2012, 02:12 PM
  #118
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For the love of God stop making trade Hemsky Threads.

Either he will continue to get injured and will be worth nothing on an ugly 5 million contract, or he will return to form and will put up great numbers and be a solid asset at 5 million. Nothing is going to subdue the hate for Hemsky on hf other than a great season where he plays 75+ games. He's still a good player, but he needs to show it before other teams' fans will actually acknowledge his value.

Why the hell is he being brought up in so many trade suggestions? There couldnt possibly be a worse time for the Oilers to trade him than now. His value can only go up from where it is now.

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07-12-2012, 02:19 PM
  #119
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That would be nice for the Oilers wouldn't it? Unfortunately that's not how it works. I think it'd be more than fair to give a couple of our solid but unspectacular D prospects. Bortuzzo + Strait would be solid return and you'd be getting two guys that look like they'll play in your top 6 as long as you want them to. Not sure how good they'll become, but I think they're legit NHL players this year if not next.
Good luck with that.

People looking to get Hemsky for b-prospects need to give their head a shake. Hemsky will be actually healthy for the first time in a couple of years for the start of this season and is a high end offensive guy. My prediction for Hemsky this year with the oilers offensive players is 70-80 points, so come back and talk to us at the trade deadline and we can talk about Joe Morrow some more.

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07-12-2012, 02:42 PM
  #120
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Good luck with that.

People looking to get Hemsky for b-prospects need to give their head a shake. Hemsky will be actually healthy for the first time in a couple of years for the start of this season and is a high end offensive guy. My prediction for Hemsky this year with the oilers offensive players is 70-80 points, so come back and talk to us at the trade deadline and we can talk about Joe Morrow some more.
And that is why we're not talking about Joe Morrow currently.

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07-12-2012, 02:49 PM
  #121
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I definitely don't. I want no part of Hemsky in Pittsburgh. If we wanted him, we'd just sign Semin without giving up money and getting a much better goal scorer and much healthier player.

I'm not sure the OP is even a Penguins fan. If you hadn't noticed, no other Penguins fans here want any part in him. Unless he's coming ridiculously cheap, we're not even going to consider giving up any quality aspects to acquire him unless we're getting something else with him.
Spot on.

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07-12-2012, 03:47 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
Earlier this offseason, at the peak of the Paul Martin hatefest, I probably would have been down to trade Martin for Hemsky straight up.

But now, especially with Michalek gone, this makes absolutely no sense for the Penguins. We are talking about a guy who hasn't played a full season since 'Nam due to various injuries. Do you guys really think Ales Hemsky could adjust his game to play under Bylsma? Do you guys really think that Ales Hemsky would survive in the Atlantic Division?

I've always been a fan of Hemsky and his dangles, it's fun to play with the guy on NHL 13, but come on. Shero is a lot smarter than that.
Since when is the east known to be tougher then the west? Its not a coincidence Hemsky and the oilers in general do pretty good against the less physical, less defence oriented teams of the east. If Hemsky can survie the Ducks, Calgary, Vancouver, Minny, La, Nashville, the Blues, San Jose etc where is the question?

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07-12-2012, 05:07 PM
  #123
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People are greatly underestimating Hemsky. Understand this guy plays with a third line center (at best) with a bunch of miserable puck movers and also has the second worst travel schedule. This kid has really had no help in his time in Edmonton but he did average almost 0.75 pts/gm once healthy last year. I also understand he has a "verbal" NMC with Kevin Lowe.
No such thing. If it's not in the contract, it's meaningless. If Lowe was willing to give that to him (and it was Tamby who gave him the contract), they'd be willing to put it in the contract.

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07-12-2012, 05:09 PM
  #124
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Since when is the east known to be tougher then the west? Its not a coincidence Hemsky and the oilers in general do pretty good against the less physical, less defence oriented teams of the east. If Hemsky can survie the Ducks, Calgary, Vancouver, Minny, La, Nashville, the Blues, San Jose etc where is the question?
The east in general no. The Atlantic division, just as physical as the Northwest.

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07-12-2012, 06:37 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
You think it's more likely that he's going to reach a GP total that he's hit 4 times in 9 years (and 0 times in the last 3 years), a point total he's hit twice over 9 years, and a PPG pace that he's hit once over 9 years (over a 22-game season) than it is that he'll have an injury-shortened season?

Your newsletters, I'd like to subscribe to them.
Considering his chronic injuries are behind him, yes. He took some good hits last year, and there were no side effects. People don't seem to realize that surgeries take time to recover from, and now the Hemsky is back at 100%, I don't see why we would question him playing. He has proven to be around a ppg player, and that is when playing with guys like Shawn Horcoff instead of guys like Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Taylor Hall and Nail Yakupov. I do believe that Hemsky will have a career year next year. The Oilers aren't trading him for a discount. If they were, they would have by now.

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