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I see your point but I think that is a different scenario because one of them is the current Conn Smythe winner and the other is the current Vezina winner and both are playing at extremely high level currently. Schneider and Luongo haven't won anything in the NHL (and no, Presidents Trophies don't count) and you could say that Luongo's performance has gone down from his best years.
That's just wrong. Neither Malkin or Crosby are publicly shopped, neither of them have requested a trade, both are playing at very high level etc.
You can't compare them to Luongo who lost his starting job, is 33y old, has publicly wanted a trade etc.
EDIT: teams can have more than 1 franchise player but your back-up goaltender isn't one.
Where is the team that plays two goaltenders at the same time? Just because management decided to go in a different direction in Schnieder, it doesn't have to mean that Luongo is suddenly less of a player. It could mean that, but your suggestion that it must be the case is clearly "bull roar". heh.
I guess Shane Doan has little interest eh? I mean, once upon a time he was a franchise guy ... but sadly, no longer.
He doesn't have an NMC. Gillis is in control here. Luongo could be waived if he's trying to **** the Canucks. Obviously an undesirable scenario, but Gillis is the one with the finger on the trigger, not Luongo.
Since we are talking about unlikely scenarios, if Gillis did go the waiver route, there is a fair chance that Columbus doesn't put in a claim. Howson got burnt badly bringing in a player that didn't want to be there just last season. If that were to happen, is Gillis comfortable letting Luongo go to up and coming Oilers team for free and face Canucks 6 times a year for the next decade ?
Gillis may have the upper hand, but there are factors working against him.
Hawks had the exact same situation with Campbell. The rumors were that Chicago had a hockey trade in place with Columbus at the draft, but Campbell refused to waive. Hawks could have waived Campbell but instead chose to eat to salary of Olesz by trading him to Florida.
Last edited by RedBaronIndian: 07-09-2012 at 04:16 AM.
I see your point but I think that is a different scenario because one of them is the current Conn Smythe winner and the other is the current Vezina winner and both are playing at extremely high level currently. Schneider and Luongo haven't won anything in the NHL (and no, Presidents Trophies don't count) and you could say that Luongo's performance has gone down from his best years.
Well the argument is about Luongo.
This year he finished with a .919SV%
His career average is .919SV%
I don't see the decline.
The year before he had .928SV% and was a Vezina finalist.
Just to clearify, are you claiming that Luongo was never a franchise player or that he isn't right now?
No, Luongo clearly was a franchise player in Panthers. He probably was a franchise player in Canucks but I was wondering whether he was more important to the team than Sedins, now that I think of it he probably was until Sedins upped their game. Can you be a franchise goalie without being a franchise player? I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus
Also, is Pekka Rinne, Zach Parise, Ryan Suter, or Shea Weber a "franchise player" in your eyes?
Those are very good questions, to be honest I don't have answers right now, I would have to think about it some time. Parise I'd say no. To me Weber was/is above Suter, i.e. more important to the team (Preds fans might disagree with me). Does that mean Suter wasn't a franchise player? I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus
Just trying to clearify how you think as it's likely different then the way I think and I don't really want to get in an argument over symantics.
This is quite similar to the heated debate about what's a power forward. To me Forsberg was never a powerforward, many say he was.
I have to admit, when I entered this discussion I had the view that the team only has "the franchise player", i.e. only one, the face of the franchise. But then again, you can't pick one of the Sedins over other in that regard, can you? Crosby & Malkin is another (albeit easier), Crosby is the face of that franchise, even though some could argue that Malkin is the better player of the two.
Gretzky was the franchise player of the Oilers, even though they were loaded in talent with several players who could be franchise players in other teams.
When I think of my team The Ducks, there's 3 players that stand above others (Perry, Getzlaf, Selanne). Selanne is an icon in Anaheim but Perry and Getzlaf are better players at this point of their careers (atleast when they give a crap). Giguere became the franchise goalie/player after 2003 Conn Smythe but he lost that title with Hiller outplaying him.
But to summarize my position, I feel that Luongo is not a franchise player at this point because he won't be the starter at Canucks. He could very well become one in some other team.
But the concept of franchise player is kinda fuzzy and you'll get 100 definitions if you ask 100 people.
But the concept of franchise player is kinda fuzzy and you'll get 100 definitions if you ask 100 people.
So basically we can agree to disagree on the definition of a franchise player and not need to discuss Luongo at all (but I will).
For me a franchise player is someone who is seen as having the potential to be selected an end of the year all-star at the beginning of the season (just came up with this, so might not be bulletproof).
For example, Phaneuf was a franchise level defenseman for a few years after 07-08 because he was still in people's minds as a potential end of the year all-star but now nobody sees him in the regard so he is not a franchise level player now.
Rinne, Weber, and Suter are all franchise level players as I could see any of them being nominated 1st or 2nd team all-stars next year although Suter is 50/50 as he hasn't proven to be at that level yet while the other two have.
Luongo IMO is a franchise goalie because I could see him making the end of year all-stars if he wins the starting job somewhere (he could deffinitly put up a 0.930 save% and start a lot of games and he has been an end of year all-star a couple of times and was nominated for the Veizna in 2011) while a guy like Elder isn't because I can't see him being an end of year all-star despite finishing tied for 5th in D-man scoring.
That's like offering Raymond+Schroeder+1st for Seabrook
not that bad when VAN & FLA would be the only teams Seabs would agree a trade to and the Hawks would have signed Suter and Seabs says he wants to be traded and won't come back.
Luongo has some value, the NTC and teams interested make this less of a bidding war as some hope. FLA is not desperate, they have 3 goalies signed for next year and Markstrom for the future. It looks like he doesn't really want to play in TOR and deal with the media there. That leaves the CHI - which Gillis does not want.
Stalberg + McNeill + Montador/Frolik would be a decent return for Luongo that could help the Nucks now and in the future if they like McNeill a bit
For me a franchise player is someone who is seen as having the potential to be selected an end of the year all-star at the beginning of the season (just came up with this, so might not be bulletproof).
To me a franchise player has already reached all-star level, won personal trophies (one or more). Those who have the potential to do that but haven't done so yet are not franchise players.
Also if a player reaches that level but clearly demonstrates a drop in performance over a longer period of time, he's not a franchise player anymore. Phaneuf is a good example of that.
I had a feeling this past weekend would be the one...
Burke and Gillis gotta stop this dance soon. Just give them A(Connolly or Lombardi) + B (Percy or Finn) + C (2nd round pick or MacArthur) and call it a day. The deal gives the Canucks a decent replacement for Kesler until he returns(then either A- depth down the middle or B- a deadline trade chip), a solid D prospect, and then the choice of a future draft choice in a reportedly good draft (either to pick or parlay into a higher draft choice) or a good NHL player who can slide onto just about any line and play effective minutes while contributing points and some grit. Also, it opens up a tonne of capspace for next offseason where they can make a legit run at some of the elite talent that could be available (i.e. Corey Perry, Jarome Iginla, and Shea Weber just to name a few).
In Conclusion,
Toronto gets an elite goalie for now, but with a potentially toxic contract in the later years and also deflates a bit of a logjam up front. Vancouver opens up major capspace next season while getting deeper up front for what should be another strong run, adds what would be their top D prospect, and arguably most importantly, removes what could be a massive distraction from the locker room. They don't get an elite prospect but that's because of the situation they, no thanks to Mr. Luongo, have gotten themselves into.
Notwithstanding FLA offering up Bjustad etc. then I'd be willing to make that trade. Of course neither of us are GMs of our repsective teams, but a small victory none the less
Since Tallon got here he has said the teams biggest weakness is the center position particularly big centermen. Bjustad just totally dominated the Panther's rookie camp with Tallon practically drooling every time he talked about him. He's not trading Bjustad.
Since Tallon got here he has said the teams biggest weakness is the center position particularly big centermen. Bjustad just totally dominated the Panther's rookie camp with Tallon practically drooling every time he talked about him. He's not trading Bjustad.
Bjugstad is going to be better than Ryan Kesler. That's my opinion after a few good viewings in person and reading up on him extensively. He is so good that I can't fully enjoy the signing of a blue chipper like Vladimir Tarasenko in St. Louis knowing that Bjugstad was on the board. Damn.
Since we are talking about unlikely scenarios, if Gillis did go the waiver route, there is a fair chance that Columbus doesn't put in a claim. Howson got burnt badly bringing in a player that didn't want to be there just last season. If that were to happen, is Gillis comfortable letting Luongo go to up and coming Oilers team for free and face Canucks 6 times a year for the next decade ?
Gillis may have the upper hand, but there are factors working against him.
Hawks had the exact same situation with Campbell. The rumors were that Chicago had a hockey trade in place with Columbus at the draft, but Campbell refused to waive. Hawks could have waived Campbell but instead chose to eat to salary of Olesz by trading him to Florida.
Gillis would talk to Howson first and ask if he would claim him. Happens all the time. It's only really a threat to Luongo that would be made if he came in and caused trouble. Something I really doubt would happen. It's not so long ago that he was captain of the team, and is reportedly loved in the dressing room. Why would he spoil friendships when he could redouble his efforts to steal back the #1 spot?
A trade will happen. It just doesn't have to happen now. Gillis probably knows he'll have to take less then he wants but until he has to there is no reason to rush.
He could feasibly start the season with both knowing that the two most interested teams are in a position where a slow start would change their perspectives quickly.
Worst case is that he takes the best deal available just before training camp.
A trade will happen. It just doesn't have to happen now. Gillis probably knows he'll have to take less then he wants but until he has to there is no reason to rush.
He could feasibly start the season with both knowing that the two most interested teams are in a position where a slow start would change their perspectives quickly.
Worst case is that he takes the best deal available just before training camp.
That would be a strong miscalculation, in my opinion.
Teams have much greater cap and roster flexibility in the off-season than during the season (or even in training camp). Once the season begins, it's much harder to make trades especially involving a player with a large cap hit (just ask Columbus).
Obviously it can still happen, but it narrows the amount of interested teams even further.
I had a feeling this past weekend would be the one...
Burke and Gillis gotta stop this dance soon. Just give them A(Connolly or Lombardi) + B (Percy or Finn) + C (2nd round pick or MacArthur) and call it a day. The deal gives the Canucks a decent replacement for Kesler until he returns(then either A- depth down the middle or B- a deadline trade chip), a solid D prospect, and then the choice of a future draft choice in a reportedly good draft (either to pick or parlay into a higher draft choice) or a good NHL player who can slide onto just about any line and play effective minutes while contributing points and some grit. Also, it opens up a tonne of capspace for next offseason where they can make a legit run at some of the elite talent that could be available (i.e. Corey Perry, Jarome Iginla, and Shea Weber just to name a few).
In Conclusion,
Toronto gets an elite goalie for now, but with a potentially toxic contract in the later years and also deflates a bit of a logjam up front. Vancouver opens up major capspace next season while getting deeper up front for what should be another strong run, adds what would be their top D prospect, and arguably most importantly, removes what could be a massive distraction from the locker room. They don't get an elite prospect but that's because of the situation they, no thanks to Mr. Luongo, have gotten themselves into.
Cue the hate storm.
scraps from Fla > Connolly/Lombardi, Percy/Finn, 2nd/MacArthur
Because Luongo would rather go to Florida and your offer is insufficient motivation for Gillis to talk him out of it.
We have sufficient capspace to go after Weber. We just waive Ballard and deal Luongo to Florida for scraps and we have enough for both Weber (8.5M) and to take a healthy run at Doan (~6.5M).
In summary: I think you're overestimating Toronto's leverage in this scenario.
not that bad when VAN & FLA would be the only teams Seabs would agree a trade to and the Hawks would have signed Suter and Seabs says he wants to be traded and won't come back.
Fair enough...but still you'd rather deal him to Florida in that case.
The only way you trade Seabrook to Vancouver is an overpayment from us.
