HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Off-season Armchair GM Thread Part VII

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-10-2012, 03:11 PM
  #176
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
i could see marleau and thornton's new contracts being 5 million thornton, and 4.5-4.9 million for marleau (if both are kept).
.
Their overall production, not just points, would have to significantly take a nose dive to take that big of a dip.

WantonAbandon is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:14 PM
  #177
Vaasa
Registered User
 
Vaasa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,364
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Your plan would be to replace who for AK?
I don't see that he would have to "replace" anyone. I think he could fit in well on the top-line as the new F1. He's got decent size, hits, and is pretty good along the boards. Plus he's a good stick-handler and a decent passer and shooter. So he fits there well.

Or he could fit on a 3rd line as a depth top-6 capable guy in case Havlat gets injured again.

That's why I like AK, he can slot in well on any of the top-3 lines. And at about $4 mil (assuming that is what it would cost), he's much cheaper than Semin, probably more durable then either Doan or Morrow, and is the right age to fit in well with the other "young core" players on the team.

If Clowe is moved either this year or not re-signed next, he could also take the F1 role on the 2nd line with Couture if necessary. He's a natural RW if I remember right, but I seem to remember he has played a fair amount of LW in his career as well (someone correct me if I'm wrong, as I haven't watched a ton of Montreal games, but I seem to remember him being listed a LW in his 2nd and maybe 3rd year with the Habs).

Vaasa is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:15 PM
  #178
Barrie22
Shark fan in hiding
 
Barrie22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Their overall production, not just points, would have to significantly take a nose dive to take that big of a dip.
they are also going to be 35-36 at this point in time, it is 2 million off on an over 35 contract. that isn't to much to ask for at that stage in there careers.

Barrie22 is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:16 PM
  #179
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
Boyle will most likely be replaced internally, he is currently 35 and will be starting to decline by the point his contract is up. Couture will still be RFA. Couture and Pav's money comes off of Jumbo and Marleau's contracts and from possibly not retaining Boyle. Clowe will have to earn a raise, right now he hasn't earned a significant one. Handzus and Murray come off the books next year.
Couture will likely be given at least what Pavelski was awarded.

If a player actually could replace Boyle internally then he would be due for a big raise. Demers... that would be an additional 3 million.

Clowe has earned a significant raise. Either the Sharks will pay it or someone else will.

Handzus especially will need to be replaced at least the initial expectation for Handzus will need to be.

Muarry will need to be replaced as well. Without Muarry the Sharks are left without enough decent options on the PK and will have to use Boyle again... Oh but Boyle wouldn't be their either under your scenario.

WantonAbandon is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:16 PM
  #180
TheJuxtaposer
#Shorks
 
TheJuxtaposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,841
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
they are also going to be 35-36 at this point in time, it is 2 million off on an over 35 contract. that isn't to much to ask for at that stage in there careers.
Actually, they'll be (or Marleau will be, at least) 34 that summer. Joe would turn 35 on July the third after his contract expires.

TheJuxtaposer is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:17 PM
  #181
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I don't see that he would have to "replace" anyone. I think he could fit in well on the top-line as the new F1. He's got decent size, hits, and is pretty good along the boards. Plus he's a good stick-handler and a decent passer and shooter. So he fits there well.

Or he could fit on a 3rd line as a depth top-6 capable guy in case Havlat gets injured again.

That's why I like AK, he can slot in well on any of the top-3 lines. And at about $4 mil (assuming that is what it would cost), he's much cheaper than Semin, probably more durable then either Doan or Morrow, and is the right age to fit in well with the other "young core" players on the team.

If Clowe is moved either this year or not re-signed next, he could also take the F1 role on the 2nd line with Couture if necessary. He's a natural RW if I remember right, but I seem to remember he has played a fair amount of LW in his career as well (someone correct me if I'm wrong, as I haven't watched a ton of Montreal games, but I seem to remember him being listed a LW in his 2nd and maybe 3rd year with the Habs).
Ok so what would you offer Clowe and Vlasic? This is the Sharks immediate concern. 2 Years down the line they will have a lot more

WantonAbandon is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:17 PM
  #182
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 18,663
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
Boyle will most likely be replaced internally, he is currently 35 and will be starting to decline by the point his contract is up. Couture will still be RFA. Couture and Pav's money comes off of Jumbo and Marleau's contracts and from possibly not retaining Boyle. Clowe will have to earn a raise, right now he hasn't earned a significant one. Handzus and Murray come off the books next year. All this and we still are 5.5 under the cap at the moment, we can definitely afford to add another 4m~ contract, and should if the right player(Doan) is willing to come here as our window is closing.
You are forgetting about our impending deal for Weber

hockeyball is online now  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:18 PM
  #183
KirbyDots
Registered User
 
KirbyDots's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mountain View, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I don't see that he would have to "replace" anyone. I think he could fit in well on the top-line as the new F1. He's got decent size, hits, and is pretty good along the boards. Plus he's a good stick-handler and a decent passer and shooter. So he fits there well.

Or he could fit on a 3rd line as a depth top-6 capable guy in case Havlat gets injured again.

That's why I like AK, he can slot in well on any of the top-3 lines. And at about $4 mil (assuming that is what it would cost), he's much cheaper than Semin, probably more durable then either Doan or Morrow, and is the right age to fit in well with the other "young core" players on the team.

If Clowe is moved either this year or not re-signed next, he could also take the F1 role on the 2nd line with Couture if necessary. He's a natural RW if I remember right, but I seem to remember he has played a fair amount of LW in his career as well (someone correct me if I'm wrong, as I haven't watched a ton of Montreal games, but I seem to remember him being listed a LW in his 2nd and maybe 3rd year with the Habs).
We could definitely afford a contract with AK, I would rather have Doan despite age as I see him as a better fit but AK would be fine for the top line then we could drop Pavs to the third. If we wanted to get someone like Semin or Nash we would probably need to trade Clowe for a cheaper option long term. Semin would be a much better target than Nash, despite Nash's chemistry with Thornton, as we wouldn't need to give up anything to get him and with all the skepticism about Semin he's likely to come in at a bargain.

KirbyDots is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:19 PM
  #184
Barrie22
Shark fan in hiding
 
Barrie22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Couture will likely be given at least what Pavelski was awarded.

If a player actually could replace Boyle internally then he would be due for a big raise. Demers... that would be an additional 3 million.

Clowe has earned a significant raise. Either the Sharks will pay it or someone else will.

Handzus especially will need to be replaced at least the initial expectation for Handzus will need to be.

Muarry will need to be replaced as well. Without Muarry the Sharks are left without enough decent options on the PK and will have to use Boyle again... Oh but Boyle wouldn't be their either under your scenario.
the sharks already have boyle's replacement on the team, and most likely already have burns replacement on the team (if demers and or braun hit there potential).

all you are replacing basically is lower tier players like braun/demers (now), with younger guys just coming into the league (like braun and demers are doing right now).

Barrie22 is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:20 PM
  #185
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
We could definitely afford a contract with AK, I would rather have Doan despite age as I see him as a better fit but AK would be fine for the top line then we could drop Pavs to the third. If we wanted to get someone like Semin or Nash we would probably need to trade Clowe for a cheaper option long term. Semin would be a much better target than Nash, despite Nash's chemistry with Thornton, as we wouldn't need to give up anything to get him and with all the skepticism about Semin he's likely to come in at a bargain.
And I'd say most of that contract would be better used to resign Clowe and Vlasic

WantonAbandon is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:21 PM
  #186
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
the sharks already have boyle's replacement on the team, and most likely already have burns replacement on the team (if demers and or braun hit there potential).

all you are replacing basically is lower tier players like braun/demers (now), with younger guys just coming into the league (like braun and demers are doing right now).
Yes but if you are able to promote Braun or Demers to a top four role they will probably be due raises

WantonAbandon is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:25 PM
  #187
Barrie22
Shark fan in hiding
 
Barrie22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Yes but if you are able to promote Braun or Demers to a top four role they will probably be due raises
actually not really, demers will get a semi long contract (3+ years next offseason), and unless demers just blows the water off the potential cap this year, he won't be getting a huge raise (at the very most 1.5 million raise). then braun we don't have to worry about until 2 years after this pending rebuild fall out with all the contracts coming up.

Barrie22 is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:27 PM
  #188
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
actually not really, demers will get a semi long contract (3+ years next offseason), and unless demers just blows the water off the potential cap this year, he won't be getting a huge raise (at the very most 1.5 million raise). then braun we don't have to worry about until 2 years after this pending rebuild fall out with all the contracts coming up.
There is more than just Demers and Braun you are over simplifying it.


If you want to keep things simple fine. Clowe and Vlasic... You are going to have to pay em if you want to keep them beyond this season. This is far more important that signing AK if the Sharks future includes both Clowe and Vlasic

WantonAbandon is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:27 PM
  #189
KirbyDots
Registered User
 
KirbyDots's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mountain View, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Couture will likely be given at least what Pavelski was awarded.

If a player actually could replace Boyle internally then he would be due for a big raise. Demers... that would be an additional 3 million.

Clowe has earned a significant raise. Either the Sharks will pay it or someone else will.

Handzus especially will need to be replaced at least the initial expectation for Handzus will need to be.

Muarry will need to be replaced as well. Without Muarry the Sharks are left without enough decent options on the PK and will have to use Boyle again... Oh but Boyle wouldn't be their either under your scenario.
Complete bunk. The difference between Pavs and Couture is $1,125,000. Clowe has not earn a significant raise, maybe another 1m if that. Handzus hopefully will be replaced internally by prospects, ideally Pavs should be our 3c. Demers is still RFA at the end of his contract and Murray as much as I love him would not be that expensive to replace and may start to decline by that point. That and you need to factor in the possibility that the cap goes up, even if it doesn't we should be fine if not only slightly worse which we would be anyway with our core aging.

KirbyDots is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:30 PM
  #190
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
Complete bunk. The difference between Pavs and Couture is $1,125,000. Clowe has not earn a significant raise, maybe another 1m if that. Handzus hopefully will be replaced internally by prospects, ideally Pavs should be our 3c. Demers is still RFA at the end of his contract and Murray as much as I love him would not be that expensive to replace and may start to decline by that point. That and you need to factor in the possibility that the cap goes up, even if it doesn't we should be fine if not only slightly worse which we would be anyway with our core aging.
Pavelski is ideally the Sharks 3rd C.... Trade him. He would be most teams second C and a few first Cs and other teams will pay him appropriately. The defense still needs a bit of help.

If Clowe hasn't earned a raise than great the plan would be to sign AK and drop Clowe, because another team will pay him.

WantonAbandon is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:34 PM
  #191
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,385
vCash: 500
If the plan isn't to drop anyone the Sharks immeadiate concerns would be to resign Clowe and Vlasic. What would you offer them? Between the two, i'd estimate a raise of 2.5 million

WantonAbandon is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:35 PM
  #192
KirbyDots
Registered User
 
KirbyDots's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mountain View, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Pavelski is ideally the Sharks 3rd C.... Trade him. He would be most teams second C and a few first Cs and other teams will pay him appropriately.

If Clowe hasn't earned a raise than great the plan would be to sign AK and drop Clowe, because another team will pay him.
That's not at all what I meant and you know it. Pavs should play as our 3c this year. As Jumbo declines, if he's still a Shark the team should become Pavelski's and Couture's. They are our future but at the moment we need 3 scoring lines.

KirbyDots is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:39 PM
  #193
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Oh, I know he's not fast. But he's also not slow. I would put him on par at least, and IMO a bit better than Pavelski in skating. To me, AK is one of those solid all-around guys who is either a decent 2nd-line player, or a very high end 3rd liner.

You would know better than me, but I seem to remember that he played the F1 role in Montreal, which to me would make him a perfect fit on the top line (getting Marleau off F1 and back to shooter) or the 3rd line with someone like Pavelski if Doan was to be acquired.
When I have seen AK, he is more often an F2 (sometimes F3). SK is more F3. Very little F1 for either.

SJeasy is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 03:51 PM
  #194
Barrie22
Shark fan in hiding
 
Barrie22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
There is more than just Demers and Braun you are over simplifying it.


If you want to keep things simple fine. Clowe and Vlasic... You are going to have to pay em if you want to keep them beyond this season. This is far more important that signing AK if the Sharks future includes both Clowe and Vlasic

ok then lets keep the exact same roster as this year (just minus boyle). and the cap stays at 70 million (for some odd reason).

the sharks as is right now have 48 million to sign 16 players that year.

i'll even make it harder on me (even knowing it will never happen) and keep marleau's and thorntons contract the exact same.

thornton 7
marleau 6.9
havlat 5
pavelski (5, guess)
clowe (5, guess)
couture (5.5, guess)
handzus (1.5, guess)
burish 1.85
galiardi (1.7, guess)
wingels (1.5, guess)
desjardins (1.5, guess)

42.45 million for the forwards (need 1 more bottom 6 forward)

burns 5.76
stuart 3.6
vlasic (5, guess)
murray (1.8, guess)
demers (2, guess)
braun 1.25

19.41 million for the defense (need 1 more 7th defensemen)

for a grand total of 61.86 million, with needing to sign 2-3 depth players.

so add in AK for 4 million and the sharks will still have what 6 million for 1 depth player?

Barrie22 is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 04:17 PM
  #195
Vaasa
Registered User
 
Vaasa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,364
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Ok so what would you offer Clowe and Vlasic? This is the Sharks immediate concern. 2 Years down the line they will have a lot more
Vlasic won't get more than $5 mil. Losing Murray should mostly cover any increase to Vlasic, with someone from the AHL like Irwin stepping up into #7.

For me, Clowe hasn't earned much of a raise. I am actually in favor of moving him if the Sharks can get a half-way decent return. But the most I would offer him is $4.25 on a new deal.

That would be max of about $2.5 mil increase between the two of them. Even if Demers does really well next year and gets a decent bump, that should still be more than enough cash for those raises while still having added a guy like AK at around $4 mil.

Vaasa is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 04:19 PM
  #196
KirbyDots
Registered User
 
KirbyDots's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mountain View, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Vlasic won't get more than $5 mil. Losing Murray should mostly cover any increase to Vlasic, with someone from the AHL like Irwin stepping up into #7.

For me, Clowe hasn't earned much of a raise. I am actually in favor of moving him if the Sharks can get a half-way decent return. But the most I would offer him is $4.25 on a new deal.

That would be max of about $2.5 mil increase between the two of them. Even if Demers does really well next year and gets a decent bump, that should still be more than enough cash for those raises while still having added a guy like AK at around $4 mil.
Agreed. I think Clowe deserves maybe a 1m more tops and the Sharks would be prudent to shop him for a faster cheaper option if they think he wont take that.

KirbyDots is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 04:31 PM
  #197
Vaasa
Registered User
 
Vaasa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,364
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Vlasic won't get more than $5 mil. Losing Murray should mostly cover any increase to Vlasic, with someone from the AHL like Irwin stepping up into #7.

For me, Clowe hasn't earned much of a raise. I am actually in favor of moving him if the Sharks can get a half-way decent return. But the most I would offer him is $4.25 on a new deal.

That would be max of about $2.5 mil increase between the two of them. Even if Demers does really well next year and gets a decent bump, that should still be more than enough cash for those raises while still having added a guy like AK at around $4 mil.
Just to make the line-up clear:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($4.25m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Tommy Wingels ($0.775m) / Michal Handzus ($2.500m) / Andrei Kostitsyn ($4.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.950m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.640m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m)

DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($5.000m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,679,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $1,520,833

And that assumes only dropping Murray and needing to add 1 forward and 1 defenseman as depth. Handzus would probably be gone and replaced for less, that cap will possibly go up, and Griess could have made Niemi expendable (assuming he gets playing time). All of which means that the Sharks should be able to fit under the cap even with adding a guy like AK.

Vaasa is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 04:32 PM
  #198
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
Agreed. I think Clowe deserves maybe a 1m more tops and the Sharks would be prudent to shop him for a faster cheaper option if they think he wont take that.
If he continues with the turnovers, he isn't getting any raise. He has to be looking at 60pts or better to entertain the idea of a raise. There are too many faults in his game that all GMs can see (unless they are Burke).

SJeasy is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 04:34 PM
  #199
Gilligans Island
Registered User
 
Gilligans Island's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF/Bay Area
Posts: 8,412
vCash: 500
WantonAbandon, I have no idea why you seemed to be all worked up about the next 2 offseasons.

1. If the Sharks had won cups, then I'd say there may be the case for untouchables. As it stands now, no one is. Nobody whose contracts expire next season or in two years is untouchable. As for Boyle, Marleau and Thornton, their next deals, if any, will be for lower than their current deals. I'd be really surprised if they all were re-signed and if not, their replacements will cheaper than their current deals so we'll have more cap space.

2. You have no idea what the new CBA and cap will be so continuing to beat the "how will we fit in player X since we have all these re-signings" drum is really a moot point right now.

Gilligans Island is offline  
Old
07-10-2012, 04:35 PM
  #200
Gilligans Island
Registered User
 
Gilligans Island's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF/Bay Area
Posts: 8,412
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Just to make the line-up clear:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($4.25m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Tommy Wingels ($0.775m) / Michal Handzus ($2.500m) / Andrei Kostitsyn ($4.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.950m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.640m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m)

DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($5.000m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,679,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $1,520,833

And that assumes only dropping Murray and needing to add 1 forward and 1 defenseman as depth. Handzus would probably be gone and replaced for less, that cap will possibly go up, and Griess could have made Niemi expendable (assuming he gets playing time). All of which means that the Sharks should be able to fit under the cap even with adding a guy like AK.
I wouldn't mind AK at all.

Was he or Sergei the troublemaker during the playoffs, though?

Gilligans Island is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:16 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.