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Kronwall is Lidstrom's replacement

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Old
07-09-2012, 02:07 PM
  #26
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Kronwall may become our #1D, but he can't come close to replacing all those other things Lidstrom did. Now, there aren't many defensemen in the NHL who could, so that's a bit moot.

He's vastly underrated NHL-wide as far as his hockey skills, namely offensive and puck moving. He's extremely mobile, excellent at moving the puck and quarterbacking the play, can play all situations, etc. He doesn't see the ice like Nick though, and always has spates of bonehead play. He's really just not as smart as Nick on the ice. He's also more injury-prone. I'm not sure if fans truly appreciated Lidstrom due to his durability--- it's simply astounding and worthy of superman status.

I don't fear for the PP and offense for Kronner. The team is going to have to score a few more goals because their D is going to be more porous. Of course, Babs will just want to grind it out and win by one goal, so.......... whatever.

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07-09-2012, 02:18 PM
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Babcock doesn't want that, he just doesn't have the team to win very many other ways.

As for Kronwall being a replacement, I don't think that's even a debate. But how good has Lidstrom been the past 2 years? How much are we actually replacing? It's not like our defense has been great for years now.

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07-09-2012, 02:31 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Babcock doesn't want that, he just doesn't have the team to win very many other ways.

As for Kronwall being a replacement, I don't think that's even a debate. But how good has Lidstrom been the past 2 years? How much are we actually replacing? It's not like our defense has been great for years now.
True, what we're really replacing is 42 year old Nick who played under 24 minutes per game. It's almost as important to replace the puck movement of Rafalski and the toughness and shutdown defense of Stuart that we don't seem to have right now.

Let's say Kronner can replace 42 year old Nick. That still leaves us the facts that:
White is a very poor mans Rafalski.
Ericsson/Quincey have work to do before they are on Stuart's level.
Smith is a few years away from playing Kronwall's old role.

It's a downgrade on all of the top4 positions right now, not just Nick's. We have to improve our depth/hope for improvements just as much as we need that bonafide #1. The good news are that pretty much all of our six current D's are looking up in their careers.

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07-09-2012, 03:10 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Zaronji View Post
The Wings not getting Suter merely means they won't be able to contend for top D in the league. Kronwall, Smith (he's already demonstrated he can handle the second pairing and could be legitimately in the top pairing by the end of the year), Quincey (well, I'm assuming he'll get re-signed....), and Ericsson is a solid top 4. White and Kindl definitely wouldn't be close to the worst bottom pairing.

At forward, if the Wings manage to grab Semin, they will be a lot deeper than last year.

Semin-Datsyuk-Franzen
Filppula-Zetterberg-Nyquist
Tootoo-Helm-Samuelsson
Cleary-Abdelkader-Bertuzzi

A lot of people don't like the Samuelsson signing, but The Wings are only one top-6 forward away from being able to comfortably use Samuelsson on the third line. While Samuelsson isn't a great top-6 player, he's at least above average for the third line. I left Brunner off because he's a huge unknown. The Wings also have Miller, Mursak, maybe Eaves, Tatar, and Sheahan all available to fill in for injuries, but I can't see all these players still being around when the season starts.
Signing Samuelsson meant the Wings said goodbye to Hudler. Before Parise and Suter had signed. If you had your choice between Samuelsson and Hudler as a top-six forward, who would you choose? Hudler, it's easy. But Holland was "space-saving" for Suter and Parise, but still wanted to go sign someone. He wasn't willing to give Hudler more than $3.3m - basically a pay cut given the change in player salaries over time since his contract was signed.

Holland has seriously botched this offseason; he put everything on getting Suter and doesn't appear to have had a backup plan.

Optionally, he could have signed Tootoo to the same deal, not signed Samuelsson, opted to go with MacDonald as the backup, signed Hudler at $4m and Carle at $6m, and waited on Suter and Parise. If those moves are made and the two sign, here's what the roster probably looks like at the start of the season:

FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($7.500m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Jiri Hudler ($4.000m)
Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.250m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) / Jan Mursak ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($7.500m) / Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m)
Matt Carle ($6.000m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Doug Janik ($0.550m)
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Joey MacDonald ($0.550m)

SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,983,712; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $253,788

Now, if Zach and Ryan still go to Minny, we don't have to see trading/waiving of Dan Cleary, Patrick Eaves, and Jakub Kindl just to meet cap and roster requirements. So we'd be looking at:

FORWARDS
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Jiri Hudler ($4.000m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.250m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Jan Mursak ($0.550m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m)
DEFENSEMEN
Matt Carle ($6.000m) / Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Joey MacDonald ($0.550m)
------
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,442,045; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $11,757,955

That $12m is open to use for signing Kyle Quincey, as well as potentially another forward (Doan or Semin), defenseman (Colaiacovo, Gilroy, Flood) or saving for the deadline.

Quote:
Howard / Gustavsson is the best goalie tandem the Wings have had in a while.
Osgood/Hasek was better. A lot better.

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07-09-2012, 03:51 PM
  #30
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He's a 1B at best IMO. Not quite good enough defensively or elite offensive. But I do hope he can excel in a bigger role, and be that go-to guy on the PP might help him reach towards 50 points again.
I really like Kronwall, but these are my thoughts as well. He's a 30-40 point guy with good defense. His hits are legendary, he skates well, and he's one of the team's leaders, so he has intangibles that make him a very valuable commodity. But if he wants to be a true #1, he needs to step up his offensive game to 40-50 points annually, with better-than-good defense. I can see a spike in offense, with a bigger offensive role, but Kronwall is already 31, so I'm not sure he's going to develop his defensive game any further. Here's to hoping that he can still make some small improvements though

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07-09-2012, 03:57 PM
  #31
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However watching Kronwall, while very good, and a capable top pairing guy on any NHL team, is not and will never be close to Lidstrom in any aspect of the game.
I agreed with you up until those last 6 words. Kronwall already does several things better, or much better, than Lidstrom ever did. But I would agree that, overall, Kronwall will never be close to Lidstrom.

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07-09-2012, 04:30 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I agreed with you up until those last 6 words. Kronwall already does several things better, or much better, than Lidstrom ever did. But I would agree that, overall, Kronwall will never be close to Lidstrom.
That is okay it might be 20 or 30 years before we see anybody that we can say does things that are close to Lidstrom.

Not a real popular name around here now but Suter is probably closest in terms of the defensive zone but you would combine him offensively with a Yandle to get Lidstrom. So think about that you basically need to combine two all-stars games to get him.

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07-09-2012, 05:14 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
That is okay it might be 20 or 30 years before we see anybody that we can say does things that are close to Lidstrom.

Not a real popular name around here now but Suter is probably closest in terms of the defensive zone but you would combine him offensively with a Yandle to get Lidstrom. So think about that you basically need to combine two all-stars games to get him.
Oh I don't ever expect to see someone's of Lidstrom's caliber on the Detroit blueline ever again. The odds are too small. Hope it didn't sound like I was complaining about Kronwall.

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07-09-2012, 05:34 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Zaronji View Post
Howard / Gustavsson is the best goalie tandem the Wings have had in a while.
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Osgood/Hasek was better. A lot better.
How do you know when they haven't played together yet? Besides, Hasek wasn't that great in '08.

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07-09-2012, 05:46 PM
  #35
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Of course, Babs will just want to grind it out and win by one goal, so.......... whatever.
Can you blame him? That was the mantra of every conference finalist this year.

And this is NOT the new NHL. Colorado, NJ, and Dallas did the same thing to teams in the 90s. When you blend high level skill with excellent defensive play and goaltending, it's almost impossible to overcome in a 7 game series. The Detroit of old was the exception, not the rule.

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07-09-2012, 05:49 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Signing Samuelsson meant the Wings said goodbye to Hudler. Before Parise and Suter had signed. If you had your choice between Samuelsson and Hudler as a top-six forward, who would you choose? Hudler, it's easy. But Holland was "space-saving" for Suter and Parise, but still wanted to go sign someone. He wasn't willing to give Hudler more than $3.3m - basically a pay cut given the change in player salaries over time since his contract was signed.

Holland has seriously botched this offseason; he put everything on getting Suter and doesn't appear to have had a backup plan.
He wanted Samuelsson because they need a right-handed shooter.

As for a backup plan, what would you want him to do? Suter was the only #1 defenseman on the market.

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07-09-2012, 05:49 PM
  #37
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We'll see how Kronwall adjusts to being THE guy. Honestly after the post-Suter dangitalltohell spell, our D as a whole needs less work than our forwards. I'd like to see us bring in a top 3 guy to anchor the 2nd pair and I'd feel more at ease. A physical shutdown type would be ideal IMO.

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07-09-2012, 06:01 PM
  #38
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Barring a trade at this point, Kronwall is our #1 by default, which I'd be okay with if we had a good enough defensemen corps to go the by-committee route... but we don't. I think he's a good #2 or great #3 on most teams in the league, so I'm hoping he can step up this year, but at this point he is what he is- great open ice hitter, can score 10+ goals a season, decent but not great passer, and inconsistent defensively in his own zone. I'm still hoping Holland can pull off a trade for #1 or #2 D, and that in 2 seasons or so Smith has established himself as a top pairing guy.

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07-09-2012, 07:22 PM
  #39
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Kronwall is Lidstrom's true replacement? I guess perpetual 8th seed, Calgary Flames like mediocrity is the Stanley Cup's replacement then

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07-09-2012, 07:25 PM
  #40
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Can you blame him? That was the mantra of every conference finalist this year.

And this is NOT the new NHL. Colorado, NJ, and Dallas did the same thing to teams in the 90s. When you blend high level skill with excellent defensive play and goaltending, it's almost impossible to overcome in a 7 game series. The Detroit of old was the exception, not the rule.
Yes, because that's how he WANTS to win. Even when he had the horses a few years back, he'd just shut down the offensive and try to win on a one goal lead. Boggled my mind. His input is sought, that's how he thinks, so those are the players he wants.

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07-09-2012, 07:42 PM
  #41
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Yes, because that's how he WANTS to win. Even when he had the horses a few years back, he'd just shut down the offensive and try to win on a one goal lead. Boggled my mind. His input is sought, that's how he thinks, so those are the players he wants.
It's worked really well. I know we're all licking wounds from a first round exit, but it's not like there's another team or coach out there that has had a better 5 year period.

You say GMs are lagging behind on contract prices with the cap, but I think you're lagging behind the fact Detroit doesn't have a stacked Hall of Fame roster. We may never see teams as good as the 90s and 2002 Detroit teams. Those are teams of legends. They happen rarely and cannot be sustained. Even among the top teams during those eras, they were the exception to the rule.

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07-09-2012, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CloneHakanPlease View Post
Kronwall is Lidstrom's true replacement? I guess perpetual 8th seed, Calgary Flames like mediocrity is the Stanley Cup's replacement then
Do you have ANYTHING positive to say?

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07-09-2012, 08:27 PM
  #43
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Obviously it's a different situation, but Kronwall has played very well in the past in international tournaments, especially the World Championships, iirc. I think he was even named the top defenseman of the tournament a few years ago. I think he could really excel in #1 role.

I'm not too worried about the defense situation honestly. Lots of people expected Detroit to suck after the lockout and trimming tens of millions of dollars in payroll. And they won the President's Trophy. People gave a lot of credit to the stability of Lidstrom's presence. Lidstrom is 42; everybody could see for the last few years that he hasn't been the player he used to be. Also, when Carolina won the Stanley Cup, their top d-men were Bret Hedican, Frantisek Kaberle, and Aaron Ward. When Tampa Bay won, their top D were Pavel Kubina and Daryl Sydor. These are exceptions to the rule and not the norm, but I'm not ready to count Detroit out entirely. I'm not saying they have a realistic chance at the Cup. But I'm not expecting them to be a lottery team or anything like some people seem to think.

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07-09-2012, 08:31 PM
  #44
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It's worked really well. I know we're all licking wounds from a first round exit, but it's not like there's another team or coach out there that has had a better 5 year period.

You say GMs are lagging behind on contract prices with the cap, but I think you're lagging behind the fact Detroit doesn't have a stacked Hall of Fame roster. We may never see teams as good as the 90s and 2002 Detroit teams. Those are teams of legends. They happen rarely and cannot be sustained. Even among the top teams during those eras, they were the exception to the rule.

The team has been in transition since 2009 ended. The last 2 yrs especially seem to have been divergences from the old approach, and even a change in how the GM manages the cap.

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07-09-2012, 08:32 PM
  #45
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Obviously it's a different situation, but Kronwall has played very well in the past in international tournaments, especially the World Championships, iirc. I think he was even named the top defenseman of the tournament a few years ago. I think he could really excel in #1 role.

I'm not too worried about the defense situation honestly. Lots of people expected Detroit to suck after the lockout and trimming tens of millions of dollars in payroll. And they won the President's Trophy. People gave a lot of credit to the stability of Lidstrom's presence. Lidstrom is 42; everybody could see for the last few years that he hasn't been the player he used to be. Also, when Carolina won the Stanley Cup, their top d-men were Bret Hedican, Frantisek Kaberle, and Aaron Ward. When Tampa Bay won, their top D were Pavel Kubina and Daryl Sydor. These are exceptions to the rule and not the norm, but I'm not ready to count Detroit out entirely. I'm not saying they have a realistic chance at the Cup. But I'm not expecting them to be a lottery team or anything like some people seem to think.
Great point. Everybody goes wild when we miss out on a guy like Suter, but hey folks... teams without Suter will win the Cup. Teams without Chara won the Cup. Teams without... you get the idea.

Kronwall is as good as Edler, and that team lead by him came ONE game from the Cup. It was mighty close.

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07-09-2012, 08:45 PM
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I think it's a given that Kronwall is number 1. The question is who plays with him on the first pairing.

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07-09-2012, 09:15 PM
  #47
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Do you have ANYTHING positive to say?
I freely admit that I think the Wing's can right the ship, and if they play their cards return to being a contender in a few years. The problem I have is the team seeming to try to go in two directions at once, and doing not nearly enough in either direction. It's frustrating to watch unfold, especially when many of the decisions that ended up biting us were the ones everyone thought were stupid to begin with. I understand hindsight is 50/50, and some things can't be put on it, but it doesn't even seem like they are learning from many of their mistakes.

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07-09-2012, 09:19 PM
  #48
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I think it's a given that Kronwall is number 1. The question is who plays with him on the first pairing.
It's gotta be Q dawg. That's why we gave up that first, right?

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07-09-2012, 10:44 PM
  #49
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I know he can't even come close to being the player Nick was, but I'm stoked to see him take on the #1 role and push his game.

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07-09-2012, 11:22 PM
  #50
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Do you have ANYTHING positive to say?
After this offseason, going into next year with our weakest defensive group in 15-20 years, and your suprised he doesn't have anything positive to say?

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