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Canucks re-sign F Mason Raymond to 1-Year, $2.275M Deal

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Old
07-11-2012, 03:35 AM
  #226
MS
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Originally Posted by alternate View Post
That's why it makes no sense to dump Raymond for a third etc. There's nothing wrong with Raymond as a depth player, an extra top 9. And we're only an acquisition (or promotion) or two from that. Dumping quality depth for middle round picks makes no sense for a team in win now mode.
Exactly. It's amazing how many people don't get this.

Players are always injured. Our 6 main wingers missed over 70 combined games last season. You're lucky if you have your preferred top 9 forwards all healthy and playing for more than 15 or 20 games in a season. Having only 9 players good enough to play top-9 minutes is not good enough.

People piss and moan if we're playing a terrific depth player $2.2 million to fill out our roster. But they also piss and moan if you don't have that depth and Tanner Glass or Dale Weise is forced to play 3rd line minutes. You can't win.

It's like people here are mentally operating in some video game fantasy land where you have exactly 9 good forwards on your team and all of them will be healthy all year.

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Old
07-11-2012, 03:38 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Exactly. It's amazing how many people don't get this.

Players are always injured. Our 6 main wingers missed over 70 combined games last season. You're lucky if you have your preferred top 9 forwards all healthy and playing for more than 15 or 20 games in a season. Having only 9 players good enough to play top-9 minutes is not good enough.

People piss and moan if we're playing a terrific depth player $2.2 million to fill out our roster. But they also piss and moan if you don't have that depth and Tanner Glass or Dale Weise is forced to play 3rd line minutes. You can't win.

It's like people here are mentally operating in some video game fantasy land where you have exactly 9 good forwards on your team and all of them will be healthy all year.
If we don't have a Chris Pronger as our #7 dman and at least a Trevor Linden as our 13th forward, it's because Gillis sucks.

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Old
07-11-2012, 03:55 AM
  #228
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I still don't understand the flack he gets even after coming back from a broken back. People use Kesler's hip surgery as an excuse for him, people have used Edler's fingers, people have used Higgins broken foot as an excuse, yet some players don't get the benefit of the doubt like those I just listed.

Ehrhoff got no slack, even though he had to get shoulder surgery after the SCF run. Raymond gets not slack after a broken back.

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Old
07-11-2012, 04:10 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
We'll get the same Raymond we've always had. His production has swung far more based on how he was used than how he played.

In 2009-10, he played on the 2nd line all season, and was the main shooting option on the #2 PP unit with a pretty elite player in Kesler alongside him. And he scored 20 points on the PP.

Last year he wasn't used on the PP at all, and scored 1 point there. He's simply not going to duplicate (or anywhere near) his 2009-10 numbers when he's being used in a completely different fashion.

If he plays 82 games with limited PP time, I'd expect he'd be at about 15 goals and 30 points. Which is about the pace he's scored at in each of the last 3 years at ES.
I think this is the key, the people who are mad about Raymond's production don't realize how crazy our application of our forwards is. We are the only team that uses our players the way we do, and if you are given a good role, you will succeed (i.e. a Sedin or Edler) while if you have a **** role you will look terrible (i.e. Raymond, Kesler (while not on the PP), Ballard).

Raymond produces as one would expect given his role. I hope that next year he is the 10th forward on this team however I doubt it since we will likely have at least Malholtra, Lappiere, Volpatti, Weise, and Pinz behind him. In an ideal world we'd lose some of the back-end guys:

1) Sedin
2) Sedin
3) Kesler
4) ?????
5) Burrows
6) Booth
7) Higgins
8) Hansen
9) Schroeder/Kassian
10) Raymond
11) Lappy/Molholtra
12) Pinz/Volpatti
13) Weise

To make that happen, Hansen and one of Schroeder/Kassian needs to step up big time, also, we need ??? to be better than Burrows which is a pretty tall order and in an ideal world he'd be able to play centre and wing.

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Old
07-11-2012, 05:04 AM
  #230
BoHorvatFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
I still don't understand the flack he gets even after coming back from a broken back. People use Kesler's hip surgery as an excuse for him, people have used Edler's fingers, people have used Higgins broken foot as an excuse, yet some players don't get the benefit of the doubt like those I just listed.

Ehrhoff got no slack, even though he had to get shoulder surgery after the SCF run. Raymond gets not slack after a broken back.
It's because of his awful playoffs before he broke his back. He was an offensive black hole on the second line.

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Old
07-11-2012, 05:16 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Exactly. It's amazing how many people don't get this.

Players are always injured. Our 6 main wingers missed over 70 combined games last season. You're lucky if you have your preferred top 9 forwards all healthy and playing for more than 15 or 20 games in a season. Having only 9 players good enough to play top-9 minutes is not good enough.

People piss and moan if we're playing a terrific depth player $2.2 million to fill out our roster. But they also piss and moan if you don't have that depth and Tanner Glass or Dale Weise is forced to play 3rd line minutes. You can't win.

It's like people here are mentally operating in some video game fantasy land where you have exactly 9 good forwards on your team and all of them will be healthy all year.
So its settled. He's a depth player.

Half the Raymond fans say he's a depth player, others have said he's a "great defensive player" while others have said he is a proven 20 goal scorer.

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Old
07-11-2012, 05:19 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by TheDiver View Post
So its settled. He's a depth player.

Half the Raymond fans say he's a depth player, others have said he's a "great defensive player" while others have said he is a proven 20 goal scorer.
He's a very good defensive player. Great is obviously pushing it.

If he was played on a 2nd line all season, and 2nd unit PP all season, I have little doubt that he'd score 20 goals again. But he won't be used like that, so he won't score that much.

At this point, yes, he's solid roster depth. Which is reflected in the paycut he just took. Again, he now makes less than the league average salary.

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Old
07-11-2012, 04:46 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I think this is the key, the people who are mad about Raymond's production don't realize how crazy our application of our forwards is. We are the only team that uses our players the way we do, and if you are given a good role, you will succeed (i.e. a Sedin or Edler) while if you have a **** role you will look terrible (i.e. Raymond, Kesler (while not on the PP), Ballard).

Raymond produces as one would expect given his role. I hope that next year he is the 10th forward on this team however I doubt it since we will likely have at least Malholtra, Lappiere, Volpatti, Weise, and Pinz behind him. In an ideal world we'd lose some of the back-end guys:

1) Sedin
2) Sedin
3) Kesler
4) ?????
5) Burrows
6) Booth
7) Higgins
8) Hansen
9) Schroeder/Kassian
10) Raymond
11) Lappy/Molholtra
12) Pinz/Volpatti
13) Weise

To make that happen, Hansen and one of Schroeder/Kassian needs to step up big time, also, we need ??? to be better than Burrows which is a pretty tall order and in an ideal world he'd be able to play centre and wing.
Raymond is more proven than Schroeder/Kassian. People shouldn't expect that much out of a rookie and a sophomore and until they overtake him, I'd slot Raymond under Hansen before them. Hansen and him are a wash at this point in terms of production. Without any PP time, they're both 40pt players. Raymond has shown the higher upside but the injury puts that into question.

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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
It's because of his awful playoffs before he broke his back. He was an offensive black hole on the second line.
Who wasn't an offensive black hole on that line? Booth was banging but couldn't take a pass on his blueline entry to save his life. Kesler was one-dimensional and not using his linemates. Raymond was falling all over the place. It was a recipe for disaster but Raymond is on a 1 year contract making less money than league average. Depth signing, on paper he slots in as our 9th forward at this point until proven otherwise. It's a low risk move.

Kesler and Booth are on much bigger long term contracts and I'd be more worried about them not picking up their slack than Raymond right now.

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Old
07-11-2012, 04:49 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by TheDiver View Post
.

Players break bones. It happens. Doesn't explain the "falling" or the major drop in offensive numbers.

You still haven't mentioned who you think would be a good offensive replacement for Raymond at his cap hit given the contracts that UFAs are signing now.

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Old
07-11-2012, 04:52 PM
  #235
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You still haven't mentioned who you think would be a good offensive replacement for Raymond at his cap hit given the contracts that UFAs are signing now.
Haven't been following this thread, but I'm curious at the concept of "replacing" Raymond. He doesn't really have a spot, I'm not sure what would need to be replaced?

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Old
07-11-2012, 04:57 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I think this is the key, the people who are mad about Raymond's production don't realize how crazy our application of our forwards is. We are the only team that uses our players the way we do, and if you are given a good role, you will succeed (i.e. a Sedin or Edler) while if you have a **** role you will look terrible (i.e. Raymond, Kesler (while not on the PP), Ballard).

Raymond produces as one would expect given his role. I hope that next year he is the 10th forward on this team however I doubt it since we will likely have at least Malholtra, Lappiere, Volpatti, Weise, and Pinz behind him. In an ideal world we'd lose some of the back-end guys:

1) Sedin
2) Sedin
3) Kesler
4) ?????
5) Burrows
6) Booth
7) Higgins
8) Hansen
9) Schroeder/Kassian
10) Raymond
11) Lappy/Molholtra
12) Pinz/Volpatti
13) Weise

To make that happen, Hansen and one of Schroeder/Kassian needs to step up big time, also, we need ??? to be better than Burrows which is a pretty tall order and in an ideal world he'd be able to play centre and wing.
Raymond in the 10 spot eh. Looks like he'll be playing for Phoenix next year if history says anything

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Old
07-12-2012, 01:01 AM
  #237
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Far more worried about Kesler's production than Raymond's. Not gonna be a happy fan if Kes returns a useless flop like last year.

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Old
07-12-2012, 05:02 AM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
1) Sedin
2) Sedin
3) Kesler
4) ?????
5) Burrows
6) Booth
7) Higgins
8) Hansen
9) Schroeder/Kassian
10) Raymond
11) Lappy/Molholtra
12) Pinz/Volpatti
13) Weise
Considering Burrows will likely slot in the 1st line and pending injuries, likely will score 30 goals again. I don't see any reason why he isn't 4th (even if we sign Doan) unless the Luongo deal brings in a very big piece. Booth and Kesler likely will play with each other and likely one of Higgins/Raymond/Kassian/??? (??? = Doan/other UFA or player from Luongo deal).

Schroeder hasn't made the team yet and his spot = quite possibly stolen/taken by a vet on a tryout or Luongo trade. Heck Lappy/Mal might even take the 3rd line center spot. Raymonds roster spot really depends on Luongo's return more than anything else but as a 9th or 10th forward, he isn't bad. Consider some of the 3rd/4th liners and the money they are getting, its also close to market value. Difference is Raymond brings a different type of game... instead of a banger/fighter/tough guy, he brings 2 way skills and offensive skillset that could put him in the top 6.

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