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Potential HHOFers born 1975-1979

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Old
07-10-2012, 09:09 AM
  #1
Ivanko
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Potential HHOFers born 1975-1979

When I read threads about active players with a potential to be inducted to the HHOF in the future, I am always surprised how few players are mentioned. I understand that it is too early to judge careers of guys that are still in their 20s, but if we look at players born 1975-1979, those are players who are 33-37 years old. They are already near the end of their careers and not much will change on their resume, except putting up some more points/wins.

In most threads only a handful players from this generation (born during a 5 years period) are mentioned:

Thornton, Iginla, Chara, St. Louis, Datsyuk + maybe Hossa, Luongo, Elias. Am I overlooking someone? That is only 8 players, born during a 5 years period and even some of those are questioned by majority of the posters.

To me it seems like a really small number of players, especially considering that 4 players can be inducted every year. I have done some research on players in the HHOF to see how the previous generations compare:

1950-1954: 14 players
1955-1959: 9 players
1960-1964: 19 players + Chris Chelios
1965-1969: 10 players + 6 more potential (Hasek, Shanahan, Recchi, Fedorov, Joseph, Rob Blake)
1970-1974: Inducted only Bure, Sundin, Locks: Lidstrom, Selanne, Niedermayer, Pronger, Brodeur, Jagr, Modano; Potential/likely: Lindros, Forsberg, Kariya, Roenick, Tkachuk, Zubov, Alfredsson, Thomas, Gonchar - That is 8 absolute locks +9 more potential players.

So 8 players mentioned above for the generation of 1975-1979 is less than any of the 4 generations born between 1950 and 1969 and even some of those 8 players are considered a long shot by many. My questions for you are:

1. Is this just a weak generation of players (1975-1979)?
2. Or do we apply stricter criteria to current players? Can it be that it is a disadvantage for this generation that they did not benefit from high-scoring period in the 80s and early 90s and their overall numbers don't look so impressive and that is why their career are not seen as HHOF worthy by many posters?

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Old
07-10-2012, 10:11 AM
  #2
Canadiens1958
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Development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanko View Post
When I read threads about active players with a potential to be inducted to the HHOF in the future, I am always surprised how few players are mentioned. I understand that it is too early to judge careers of guys that are still in their 20s, but if we look at players born 1975-1979, those are players who are 33-37 years old. They are already near the end of their careers and not much will change on their resume, except putting up some more points/wins.

In most threads only a handful players from this generation (born during a 5 years period) are mentioned:

Thornton, Iginla, Chara, St. Louis, Datsyuk + maybe Hossa, Luongo, Elias. Am I overlooking someone? That is only 8 players, born during a 5 years period and even some of those are questioned by majority of the posters.

To me it seems like a really small number of players, especially considering that 4 players can be inducted every year. I have done some research on players in the HHOF to see how the previous generations compare:

1950-1954: 14 players
1955-1959: 9 players
1960-1964: 19 players + Chris Chelios
1965-1969: 10 players + 6 more potential (Hasek, Shanahan, Recchi, Fedorov, Joseph, Rob Blake)
1970-1974: Inducted only Bure, Sundin, Locks: Lidstrom, Selanne, Niedermayer, Pronger, Brodeur, Jagr, Modano; Potential/likely: Lindros, Forsberg, Kariya, Roenick, Tkachuk, Zubov, Alfredsson, Thomas, Gonchar - That is 8 absolute locks +9 more potential players.

So 8 players mentioned above for the generation of 1975-1979 is less than any of the 4 generations born between 1950 and 1969 and even some of those 8 players are considered a long shot by many. My questions for you are:

1. Is this just a weak generation of players (1975-1979)?
2. Or do we apply stricter criteria to current players? Can it be that it is a disadvantage for this generation that they did not benefit from high-scoring period in the 80s and early 90s and their overall numbers don't look so impressive and that is why their career are not seen as HHOF worthy by many posters?
You are looking at 5 year / season groupings which do not define a generation. If you look at your data you seem to have a roller coaster 14 / 9 / 19(+1) / 10 then potentially 17 then the 75-79 group so the roller coaster element is present. Not as if you had a +/- 1 from group to group then a -15 drop.

The 5 year grouping is interesting since it reflects player development thru junior. The 1993-97 drafts saw a focus on size as opposed to talent which reflects why two of the players were misdrafted - St. Louis and Datsyuk. There was a trend towards size in youth hockey from roughly the mid 1980's to the early part of the century. Since the HHOF looks at talent the drop is to be expected.

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Old
07-10-2012, 10:19 AM
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Patrick Marleau is in that age group and coming off of his third consecutive 30+ goal season. If the Sharks win the Stanley Cup in the next couple of seasons, he'll receive Hall consideration.


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Old
07-10-2012, 10:40 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
You are looking at 5 year / season groupings which do not define a generation. If you look at your data you seem to have a roller coaster 14 / 9 / 19(+1) / 10 then potentially 17 then the 75-79 group so the roller coaster element is present. Not as if you had a +/- 1 from group to group then a -15 drop.

The 5 year grouping is interesting since it reflects player development thru junior. The 1993-97 drafts saw a focus on size as opposed to talent which reflects why two of the players were misdrafted - St. Louis and Datsyuk. There was a trend towards size in youth hockey from roughly the mid 1980's to the early part of the century. Since the HHOF looks at talent the drop is to be expected.
Ok I understand that it is a little arbitrary to just select 5 years period as generations, but I think 5 years is long enough to provide some consistency with regards to the number of talented players.
There is a huge jump from 1950s to 1960s from 9 to 20 (60-64), but then it is relatively steady with 15-16 players (65-69) and a realistic estimate of 15-16 players (70-74) and then a huge drop to 5-8 players (75-79).

It seems to me that the huge rise from 9 to 20 and also the huge drop from 15-16 to 5-8 strangely coincides with the high scoring era in the 80s and early 90s. If some of the guys from the 75-79 generation like Hejduk or Marleau played in the high scoring era, maybe their resume would look much better with 1000 + points instead of 800ish, with a few 100 seasons instead of 80-90 point ones.

I wonder how the HHOF committee will deal with this, because in 8-9 years there might be just 1-2 players per year to induct if I shall trust the opinion of HFboards. Or will they start inducting players like Hejduk, Kiprusoff, Boyle?

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Old
07-10-2012, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Patrick Marleau is in that age group and coming off of his third consecutive 30+ goal season. If the Sharks win the Stanley Cup in the next couple of seasons, he'll receive Hall consideration.

I think he will be among the best players available at the time of his eligibility, but I haven't seen much consideration for him on this board.

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Old
07-10-2012, 11:06 AM
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Further

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanko View Post
Ok I understand that it is a little arbitrary to just select 5 years period as generations, but I think 5 years is long enough to provide some consistency with regards to the number of talented players.
There is a huge jump from 1950s to 1960s from 9 to 20 (60-64), but then it is relatively steady with 15-16 players (65-69) and a realistic estimate of 15-16 players (70-74) and then a huge drop to 5-8 players (75-79).

It seems to me that the huge rise from 9 to 20 and also the huge drop from 15-16 to 5-8 strangely coincides with the high scoring era in the 80s and early 90s. If some of the guys from the 75-79 generation like Hejduk or Marleau played in the high scoring era, maybe their resume would look much better with 1000 + points instead of 800ish, with a few 100 seasons instead of 80-90 point ones.

I wonder how the HHOF committee will deal with this, because in 8-9 years there might be just 1-2 players per year to induct if I shall trust the opinion of HFboards. Or will they start inducting players like Hejduk, Kiprusoff, Boyle?
5 year periods are excellent since they do reflect the junior age development phase very well. Look at scoring in the three CHL junior leagues then match the results to the NHL. The high scoring junior era in the seventies generated the high scoring NHL era in the eighties.

As for inductions you still see 52 players over a 290 year period or slightly more than 2.5 per year. The HHOF will find plenty of candidates. The distribution over 5 year periods may not be balanced but it does not have to be.

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Old
07-10-2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Patrick Marleau is in that age group and coming off of his third consecutive 30+ goal season. If the Sharks win the Stanley Cup in the next couple of seasons, he'll receive Hall consideration.
Despite having a lot of talent, except for the Jets/Coyotes, no team has been around longer and never even been to the Finals. ("San Jose Sharks (20 seasons), Phoenix Coyotes (15 seasons, and 17 seasons as the former Winnipeg Jets)." I don't think they're going to win it "in the couple of seasons", and even if they do, I don't think he's a HHoFer.

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Old
07-10-2012, 11:18 AM
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Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanko View Post
When I read threads about active players with a potential to be inducted to the HHOF in the future, I am always surprised how few players are mentioned. I understand that it is too early to judge careers of guys that are still in their 20s, but if we look at players born 1975-1979, those are players who are 33-37 years old. They are already near the end of their careers and not much will change on their resume, except putting up some more points/wins.

In most threads only a handful players from this generation (born during a 5 years period) are mentioned:

Thornton, Iginla, Chara, St. Louis, Datsyuk + maybe Hossa, Luongo, Elias. Am I overlooking someone? That is only 8 players, born during a 5 years period and even some of those are questioned by majority of the posters.

To me it seems like a really small number of players, especially considering that 4 players can be inducted every year. I have done some research on players in the HHOF to see how the previous generations compare:

1950-1954: 14 players
1955-1959: 9 players
1960-1964: 19 players + Chris Chelios
1965-1969: 10 players + 6 more potential (Hasek, Shanahan, Recchi, Fedorov, Joseph, Rob Blake)
1970-1974: Inducted only Bure, Sundin, Locks: Lidstrom, Selanne, Niedermayer, Pronger, Brodeur, Jagr, Modano; Potential/likely: Lindros, Forsberg, Kariya, Roenick, Tkachuk, Zubov, Alfredsson, Thomas, Gonchar - That is 8 absolute locks +9 more potential players.

So 8 players mentioned above for the generation of 1975-1979 is less than any of the 4 generations born between 1950 and 1969 and even some of those 8 players are considered a long shot by many. My questions for you are:

1. Is this just a weak generation of players (1975-1979)?
2. Or do we apply stricter criteria to current players? Can it be that it is a disadvantage for this generation that they did not benefit from high-scoring period in the 80s and early 90s and their overall numbers don't look so impressive and that is why their career are not seen as HHOF worthy by many posters?
I think part of it is that after an exceptionally strong ~5 year period, the next period will tend to be weaker, especially in comparison to the previous period. The players from the previous period will also make the next generation appear weaker, through direct competition (taking their placements in rankings, etc.).

Also would put Forsberg as a lock, and all but Joseph are locks in his group.


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 07-10-2012 at 11:29 AM.
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Old
07-10-2012, 04:08 PM
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Bad drafts for sure. Even when there were some good players taken like Doan, Smyth, Friesen, Arnott, etc. they still don't come close to HHOF material.

Even in that group you mentioned, there is no way all of Thornton, Datsyuk, St. Louis, Iginla, Chara, Elias, Luongo, Hossa make it. The first 5 for sure. I've never been sold on Elias, and Hossa has to do more. As for Luongo, I doubt it if his career ends today since goalies have such a hard time as it is and the lasting image of him in the 2011 Cup final and then being shown the door a year later will stick.

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Old
07-10-2012, 07:28 PM
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1975
games played
1135 - Bryan McCabe
1105 - Jamie Langenbrunner
1093 - Todd Bertuzzi
1092 - Chris Gratton
1070 - Hal Gill
1060 - Mike Grier
1060 - Vinny Prospal

goals
323 - Marty St. Louis
303 - Todd Bertuzzi
243 - Vinny Prospal
243 - Jamie Langenbrunner
226 - Eric Daze
215 - Darcy Tucker
214 - Chris Gratton
200 - Brendan Morrison

assists
529 - Marty St. Louis
492 - Vinny Prospall
448 - Todd Bertuzzi
419 - Jamie Langenbrunner
401 - Kimmo Timonen
401 - Brendan Morrison
383 - Bryan McCabe

points
852 - Marty St. Louis
751 - Todd Bertuzzi
735 - Vinny Prospal
662 - Jamie Langenbrunner
601 - Brendan Morrison
568 - Chris Gratton
537 - Viktor Kozlov

+/-
133 - Marek Malik
86 - Brendan Morrison
61 - Jamie Langenbrunner
51 - Michael Grosek
47 - Hal Gill
45 - Niklas Sundstrom
43 - Mike Wilson

PIMs
1732 - Bryan McCabe
1638 - Chris Gratton
1523 - Matt Johnson
1436 - Todd Bertuzzi
1424 - Brendan Witt
1410 - Darcy Tucker
1185 - Andy Sutton

St. Louis - Cup / Ross / Hart / Lindsay / Lady Byng (2) / 1st Team All Star / 2nd team all star (3) / 1st - assists, SHgoals and pts 03-04
Bertuzzi - 1st Team All star / 1st PPgoals 02-03 / 1st PPG% 01-02
Langenbrunner - (2) Cups
McCabe - 2nd team All Star
Gill - Cup


games
605 - Evigni Nabokov
586 - Jocelyn Thibeault
543 - Marty Turco
348 - Kevin Weekes
272 - Cristobal Huet
224 - John Grahame
219 - Jamie Stoor

wins
312 - Evigni Nabokov
275 - Marty Turco
238 - Jocelyn Thibeault
129 - Cristobal Huet
105 - Kevin Weekes
97 - John Graheme
86 - Jamie Storr

save %
.913 - Cristobal Huet
.912 - Evigni Nabokov
.910 - Marty Turco
.908 - Jamie Storr
.904 - Pasi Nurminen
.904 - Jocelyn Thibeault
.903 - Kevin Weekes

GAA
2.36 - Marty Turco
2.40 - Evigni Nabokov
2.46 - Cristobal Huet
2.54 - Jamie Storr
2.70 - Jussi Markkane
2.75 - Jocelyn Thibeault
2.79 - John Grahame

shutouts
52 - Evigni Nabokov
41 - Marty Turco
39 - Jocelyn Thibeault
24 - Cristobal Huet
19 - Kevin Weekes
16 - Jamie Storr
12 - John Grahame

Nabokov - Calder / All Rookie Team / First Team All Star
Huet - Cup
Grahame - Cup
Storr - All Rookie Team (twice??!!)


1976
games
1198 - Shane Doan
1151 - Ryan Smyth
1090 - Daymond Langkow
1085 - Ed Jovanovski
1042 - Patrik Elias
1031 - Matt Cullen
1017 - Petr Sykora

goals
374 - Ryan Smyth
371 - Milan Hejduk
361 - Patrik Elias
323 - Petr Sykora
318 - Shan Doan
270 - Daymond Langkow
255 - Chris Drury

assists
533 - Patrik Elias
470 - Shane Doan
432 - Ryan Smyth
423 - Milan Hejduk
402 - Daymond Langkow
398 - Petr Sykora
380 - Dan Boyle

points
894 - Patrik Elias
806 - Ryan Smyth
794 - Milan Hejduk
788 - Shane Doan
721 - Petr Sykora
672 - Daymond Langkow
615 - Chris Drury

+/-
186 - Patrik Elias
108 - Milan Hejduk
81 - Daymond Langkow
73 - Rhett Warriner
70 - Curtis Brown
58 - Petr Sykora
57 - Mikael Samuelsson

PIMs
1538 - Jody Shelley
1452 - Ed Jovanovski
1420 - Jason Weimer
1265 - Eric Boulton
1263 - Wade Belak
1126 - Georges Laraque
1093 - Sheldon Souray

Doan - Clancy
Smyth - 1st PPgoals
Jovanovski - All Rookie Team
Elias - Cup (2) / All Rookie Team / 1st Team All Star / 1st +/-
Sykora - Cup (2) / All Rookie Team
Hejduk - Richard / 1st Team All Star / 2nd Team All Star / Cup / 1st EVgoals / 1st Shooting% / 1st goals / 1st GPG / 1st +/-
Drury - Calder / All Rookie Team / Cup

games
680 - Tomas Vokoun
633 - Jose Theodore
599 - Mikka Kiprusoff
351 - Dan Cloutier
306 - Chris Mason
215 - Ty Conklin

wins
311 - Mikka Kiprusoff
287 - Tomas Vokoun
282 - Jose Theodore
139 - Dan Cloutier
136 - Chris Mason
96 - Ty Conklin

save%
.917 - Tomas Vokoun
.914 - Mikka Kiprusoff
.910 - Chris Mason
.909 - Jose Theodore
.906 - Ty Conklin
.899 - Dan Cloutier

GAA
2.45 - Mikka Kiprusoff
2.55 - Tomas Vokoun
2.63 - Chris Mason
2.67 - Jose Theodore
2.69 - Ty Conklin
2.77 - Dan Cloutier

shutouts
48 - Tomas Vokoun
44 - Mikka Kiprusoff
33 - Jose Theodore
23 - Chris Mason
17 - Ty Conklin
15 - Dan Cloutier

Kiprusoff - Vezina / Jennings / 1st Team All Star / 1st wins / 1st shutouts / 1st save% / 1st GAA (2)
Theodore - Vezina / Hart / Masterson / 2nd Team All Star / 1st save%


1977
games
1191 - Radek Dvorak
1188 - Jarome Iginla
1007 - Zdeno Chara
994 - Wade Redden
970 - Pavel Kubina
911 - Michal Handzus
813 - Danny Briere

goals
516 - Jarome Iginla
280 - Danny Briere
219 - Radek Dvorak
216 - Mark Parrish
207 - Marc Savard
181 - Jochen Hecht
179 - Michal Handzus

assists
557 - Jarome Iginla
499 - Marc Savard
363 - Danny Briere
358 - Radek Dvorak
344 - Wade Redden
322 - Zdeno Chara
293 - Andy McDonald

points
1073 - Jarome Iginla
706 - Marc Savard
643 - Danny Briere
577 - Radek Dvorak
468 - Andy McDonald
459 - Michal Handzus
459 - Zdeno Chara

+/-
162 - Wade Redden
149 - Zdeno Chara
106 - Willie Mitchell
94 - Jochen Hecht
74 - Colin White
60 - Peter Schaefer
55 - Jay McKee
53 - Jarome Iginla

PIMs
1554 - Peter Worrell
1471 - Zdeno Chara
1123 - Pavel Kubina
869 - Colin White
809 - Jarome Iginla
772 - Shawn Thornton
737 - Marc Savard

Iginla - Ross / Rchard (2) / Lindsay / Clancy / All rookie Team / 1st Team All Star (3) / 2nd Team All Star / 1st goals (2) / 1st EVgoals / 1st game winning goals / 1st points / 1st GPG%
Chara - Norris / 1st Team All Star (2) / 2nd Team All Star (4) / Cup / 1st +/-
Redden - 1st +/-
Briere - 1st shooting%
Parrish - 1st shooting%
Kubina - Cup
McDonald - Cup
Mitchell - Cup
White - All Rookie Team / Cup (2)

games
557 - JS Giguere
500 - Marty Biron
349 - Marc Denis
324 - Brian Boucher
309 - Brent Johnson
266 - Vesa Toskola
218 - JS Aubin

wins
246 - JS Giguere
228 - Marty Biron
140 - Brent Johnson
129 - Vesa Toskola
120 - Brian Boucher
112 - Marc Denis
80 - JS Aubin

save%
.913 - JS Giguere
.911 - Marty Biron
.910 - Scott Clemmensen
.904 - Brent Johnson
.902 - Marc Denis
.902 - Vesa Toskola
.901 - Brian Boucher
.900 - JS Aubin

GAA
2.52 - JS Giguere
2.61 - Marty Biron
2.63 - Brent Johnson
2.64 - Scott Clemmensen
2.71 - Brian Boucher
2.76 - Vesa Toskola
2.93 - JS Aubin

shutouts
36 - JS Giguere
28 - Marty Biron
17 - Brian Boucher
16 - Marc Denis
14 - Brent Johnson
13 - Vesa Toskola
7 - JS Aubin
7 - Scott Clemmensen

Giguere - Conn Smythe / Cup
Boucher - All Rookie Team / 1st GAA

1978
games
1065 - Dainius Zubrus
1042 - Olli Jokinen
1025 - Chris Phillips
1005 - Derek Morris
974 - Tomas Kaberle
938 - Marco Sturm
888 - Sergei Samsonov

goals
292 - Olli Jokinen
242 - Marco Sturm
240 - Pavel Datsyuk
235 - Sergei Samsonov
219 - Erik Cole
214 - JP Dumont
206 - Dainius Zubrus

assists
478 - Pavel Datsyuk
473 - Tomas Kaberle
391 - Olli Jokinen
336 - Sergei Samsonov
333 - Dainius Zuberus
309 - Derek Morris
309 - JP Dumont

points
718 - Pavel Datsyuk
683 - Olli Jokinen
571 - Sergei Samsonov
560 - Tomas Kaberle
539 - Dainius Zubrus
523 - JP Dumont
487 - Marco Sturm

+/-
208 - Pavel Datsyuk
85 - Chris Phillips
59 - Marco Sturm
58 - Michal Rozsival
55 - Matt Cooke
46 - Tom Preissing
27 - Dan Cleary
27 - Andrei Markov

PIMs
1035 - Cory Sarich
1032 - Matt Cooke
967 - Olli Jokinen
940 - Arron Asham
927 - Derek Morris
699 - Scott Parker
671 - Dainius Zubrus
671 - Chris Phillips

Datsyuk - Cup (2) / Lady Byng (4) / Selke (3) / 2nd team All Star / 1st +/-
Samsonov - Calder / All Rookie Team
Morris - All Rookie Team
Kaberle - Cup
Sarich - Cup
Cooke - Cup
Cole - Cup
Scuderi - Cup (2)

games
327 - Niklas Backstrom
323 - Mathieu Garon
214 - David Aebscher
186 - Robert Esche
99 - Johan Holmqvist

wins
160 - Niklas Backstrom
139 - Mathieu Garon
106 - David Aebscher
78 - Robert Esche
48 - Johan Holmqvist

save%
.918 - Niklas Backstrom
.912 - David Aebscher
.904- Mathieu Garon
.899 - Robert Esche
.890- Johan Holmqvist

GAA
2.42 - Niklas Backstrom
2.52 - David Aebscher
2.75 - Robert Esche
2.83- Mathieu Garon
2.99- Johan Holmqvist

shutouts
26 - Niklas Backstrom
20 - Mathieu Garon
13 - David Aebscher
10 - Robert Esche
3 - Johan Holmqvist

Backstrom - Jennings / 1st save% / 1st GAA
Aebscher - Cup
Garon - Cup
Esche - Jennings

1979
games
1117 - Patrick Marleau
1077 - Joe Thornton
978 - Marian Hossa
908 - Scott Hannan
902 - Scott Gomez
882 - Alex Tanguay
876 - Brad Stuart

goals
417 - Marian Hossa
387 - Patrick Marleau
324 - Joe Thornton
238 - Alex Tanguay
237 - Brendan Morrow
217 - Brian Gionta
169 - Scott Gomez
169 - Ruslan Fedotenko
168 - Ryan Malone

assists
754 - Joe Thornton
517 - Scott Gomez
497 - Alex Tanguay
487 - Marian Hossa
443 - Patrick Marleau
307 - Brian Campbell
280 - Brenden Morrow

points
1078 - Joe Thornton
904 - Marian Hossa
830 - Patrick Marleau
735 - Alex Tanguay
686 - Scott Gomez
517 - Brenden Morrow
419 - Brian Gionta

+/-
163 - Marian Hossa
162 - Alex Tanguay
152 - Joe Thornton
110 - Brenden Morrow
97 - Chris Kunitz
86 - Johan Franzen
61 - Brian Gionta

PIMs
1861 - Chris Neil
1185 - Brenden Morrow
1050 - Todd Fedoruk
963 - Joe Thornton
950 - George Parros
862 - Nick Boynton
829 - Adam Mair

Thornton - Ross / Hart / 1st team All star / 2nd team All Star (2) / 1st assists (3) / 1st points / 1st PPG% / 1st APG% (3)
Hossa - Cup / All rookie Team / 2nd team All Star / 1st SHgoals (2)
Tanguay - Cup / 1st shooting%
Gomez - Cup (2) / Calder / All Rookie team / 1st assists
Gionta - Cup
Fedotenko - Cup (2)
Stuart - Cup / All Rookie Team
Campbell - Cup / Lady Byng / 2nd team All star
Kunitz - Cup (2)
Malone - All Rookie Team / 1st shooting%
Franzen - Cup

games
727 - Roberto Luongo
141 - Curtis Sanford
113 - Mikael Tellqvist
71 - Mika Noronen

wins
339 - Roberto Luongo
47 - Curtis Sanford
45 - Mikael Tellqvist
23 - Mika Noronen

save%
.919 - Roberto Luongo
.904 - Curtis Sanford
.901 - Mika Noronen
.898 - Mikael Tellqvist

GAA
2.52 - Roberto Luongo
2.68 - Mika Noronen
2.72 - Curtis Sanford
3.01 - Mikael Tellqvist

shutouts
60 - Roberto Luongo
6 - Curtis Sanford
6 - Mikael Tellqvist
3 - Mika Noronen

Luongo - Jennings / 2nd team All star (2) / 1st wins

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Old
07-11-2012, 09:09 AM
  #11
Slapshooter
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
A nice work. Many weak years there in terms of elite "potentially HOF worthy" talent pool. Only these names stand out for me:

1975 = St. Louis (likely)

1976 = Elias (borderline case)

1977 = Chara (lock), Iginla (lock)

1978 = Datsyuk (likely)

1979 = Thornton, Hossa, maybe Luongo (Thornton likely, others borderline)

That would make 1977 clearly the best year of the bunch.

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07-14-2012, 05:26 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Ivanko View Post
1. Is this just a weak generation of players (1975-1979)?
2. Or do we apply stricter criteria to current players? Can it be that it is a disadvantage for this generation that they did not benefit from high-scoring period in the 80s and early 90s and their overall numbers don't look so impressive and that is why their career are not seen as HHOF worthy by many posters?
I think there are multiple reasons for the small number of players from this time frame.

1) They all played in a newly transitioned lower scoring "clutch and grab era" often called the "dead puck era" in which skill wasn't as necessary to win hockey games as was coaching, defensive systems and the goalies dominance (both due to increases in technology and technique).

2) gut feeling here but the combination of the lockout year and injuries (increase in frequency and duration among star players) lead to lesser counting stats overall and an impression that those players were less impressive.

3) some draft years are weaker than others to be sure but I don't think there is a huge difference in overall talent from 75-79 compared to other 5 year periods but this group is entering the league on the above listed changes and it makes skill a less valuable commodity than in the past. Watching the players from this group it's pretty evident there was a lot of talent there.

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07-14-2012, 06:58 PM
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seventieslord
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Patrick Marleau is in that age group and coming off of his third consecutive 30+ goal season. If the Sharks win the Stanley Cup in the next couple of seasons, he'll receive Hall consideration.

Haha... no he won't.

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07-14-2012, 10:40 PM
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Haha... no he won't.
You are right he probably won't but Van Isle has a point.

On the surface Marleau has had a career that doesn't scream HHOF but his stats suggest that he should at least be looked at.

His stats so far ar 387-443-830 from 98-12 which puts him 11th in points and 6th in goals (he is right behind Vinny in points who is in a similar situation as Patrick is in., ie, probably not making the HHOF).

6th in goals and 11th in points looks just okay but among only Canadian players he comes out 2nd and 6th which gives a good apples to apples comp between Marleau and 06 guys or even guys in the 70's.

But he has been a poor player in the playoffs right?

Well from 98-12 guess who leads the NHL in goals in the playoffs with 52?

Yes surprisingly it's Patrick.

He placed 18th in points and 14th in games.

Ahead of him on the points list are 5 other Canadians, 4 from the US and 8 players from Europe. So once again on an apples to apples comp he actually should be considered at the very least I would think.

I doubt he or Vinny gets in but I also think it's unfair to raise the bar on guys as well.

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07-14-2012, 11:40 PM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
You are right he probably won't but Van Isle has a point.

On the surface Marleau has had a career that doesn't scream HHOF but his stats suggest that he should at least be looked at.

His stats so far ar 387-443-830 from 98-12 which puts him 11th in points and 6th in goals (he is right behind Vinny in points who is in a similar situation as Patrick is in., ie, probably not making the HHOF).

6th in goals and 11th in points looks just okay but among only Canadian players he comes out 2nd and 6th which gives a good apples to apples comp between Marleau and 06 guys or even guys in the 70's.

But he has been a poor player in the playoffs right?

Well from 98-12 guess who leads the NHL in goals in the playoffs with 52?

Yes surprisingly it's Patrick.

He placed 18th in points and 14th in games.

Ahead of him on the points list are 5 other Canadians, 4 from the US and 8 players from Europe. So once again on an apples to apples comp he actually should be considered at the very least I would think.

I doubt he or Vinny gets in but I also think it's unfair to raise the bar on guys as well.
No, I don't think he has been bad in the playoffs at all, actually. And I don't know where that idea ever came from.

We were talking about this in the ATD section, and he is going to probably end up with ridiculous "counting stats" that severely overrate his all-time value as a player. But at the end of it all, he still won't have the offensive peak to warrant a spot in anyone's top 6 (or anything close to it, really) or the defensive/physical value to play in bottom two lines as they are conventionally constructed. The best answer I got was that he would be an elite ATD spare, which would make him somewhere around pick #650.

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07-15-2012, 01:02 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
No, I don't think he has been bad in the playoffs at all, actually. And I don't know where that idea ever came from.

We were talking about this in the ATD section, and he is going to probably end up with ridiculous "counting stats" that severely overrate his all-time value as a player. But at the end of it all, he still won't have the offensive peak to warrant a spot in anyone's top 6 (or anything close to it, really) or the defensive/physical value to play in bottom two lines as they are conventionally constructed. The best answer I got was that he would be an elite ATD spare, which would make him somewhere around pick #650.
The bad playoff performer was a general observation in that many view San Jose as chokers and Patrick is a lifetime Sharks player.

I agree with your other statement though but your earlier post seemed to dismiss him rather easily so thus the reply on my part.

Patrick doesn't pass the "gut test" of being a HHOF guy either which is pretty important in my books.

Not sure on the 650th ATD ranking but different methods and objectives might happen there and I doubt there is much discussion of the apples to apples comp I brought up.

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07-15-2012, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
You are right he probably won't but Van Isle has a point.

On the surface Marleau has had a career that doesn't scream HHOF but his stats suggest that he should at least be looked at.

His stats so far ar 387-443-830 from 98-12 which puts him 11th in points and 6th in goals (he is right behind Vinny in points who is in a similar situation as Patrick is in., ie, probably not making the HHOF).

6th in goals and 11th in points looks just okay but among only Canadian players he comes out 2nd and 6th which gives a good apples to apples comp between Marleau and 06 guys or even guys in the 70's.

But he has been a poor player in the playoffs right?

Well from 98-12 guess who leads the NHL in goals in the playoffs with 52?

Yes surprisingly it's Patrick.

He placed 18th in points and 14th in games.

Ahead of him on the points list are 5 other Canadians, 4 from the US and 8 players from Europe. So once again on an apples to apples comp he actually should be considered at the very least I would think.

I doubt he or Vinny gets in but I also think it's unfair to raise the bar on guys as well.
I think we're in trouble when Marleau is getting some love. He has had a fine career. 830 points is good, but in 1117 games? Remember the guy was playing in the NHL at 18 and has barely missed any time. I know he got this reputation as a playoff guy at one time but I thought it was unfair that Thornton was getting the lion's share of the blame while Marleau was very much the same, points wise.

Maybe if there could have been some magic with that Heatley-Thornton-Marleau line with Boyle on defense and Nabokov in goal we'd see things differently. Alas, the sharks with those players never even made the Cup final. It was a bad call in 2011 that kept them from prolonging the Vancouver series (honestly, prior to that tying goal it was NOT an icing) but they still didn't perform up to snuff.

What has Marleau done to warrant any consideration? 4th in goals once? Then 6th. That's it. No top 10 in points, no top 10 in assists. A career high 86 points. Twice over 80 points. Lecavalier won a Cup, led the NHL in goals, was top 6 in points twice, has more points in about 120 less games. The lever tilts in Lecavalier's favour, and even then there isn't anything he'll do to get into the HHOF.

Marleau will be 33 entering this year. Lecavalier 32. If there is hockey at all, then you'd have to assume these guys get back into the upper echelon of stars in the NHL. That just isn't happening. Stamkos is the man in Tampa now. Lecavalier is at best a supporting cast member. Thornton will be no better than a point a game guy the rest of the way, which means Marleau might be a 60 point guy. They will both do nothing to put themselves over the top for the HHOF. They had their chance

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07-16-2012, 12:24 AM
  #18
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Relevant yet not mentioned...

Marleau also led Team Canada in special teams ice time, on both the powerplay and penalty kill, in their 2010 gold-medal Olympics. He was third in overall ice time for forwards on the team, behind only Crosby and Nash, who were double shifted a lot for offense.

Marleau is not over the hill! He could very well have a fourth consecutive 30+ goal season in 2012-13 (at a time in the NHL when very few have had 30 goal seasons the last three seasons). He could also pot a few GWGs in the postseason on the Sharks' way to the Stanley Cup (the team is built to make a cup run). IF that happens, he isn't far off of the mark Hall-wise.

San Jose is not watched a lot by Easterners, due in part to the late night games. And Marleau is underrated. He was again voted Fan Favorite this season (not Couture, Pavelski or Thornton). Why? Because he is hard working and comes up with key plays at key times, though not this postseason (misplayed at the point rather than crease this year imo - Joe wanting to go inside more). Marleau is smart and deceptively quick. He is not flashy nor physical. He plays WITHOUT the puck like Modano (big guy who knows where to be, anticipates plays, does the right things), and WITH the puck he has all-time great soft hands around the crease, really can bury passes, deflections and rebounds with remarkable consistent accuracy. That is his exceptional talent and there are plenty of highlight reel goals that show it. I haven't seen anyone since Dino Ciccarelli receive pucks and put away pucks in close the way he can.

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07-16-2012, 12:51 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think we're in trouble when Marleau is getting some love. He has had a fine career. 830 points is good, but in 1117 games? Remember the guy was playing in the NHL at 18 and has barely missed any time. I know he got this reputation as a playoff guy at one time but I thought it was unfair that Thornton was getting the lion's share of the blame while Marleau was very much the same, points wise. Maybe if there could have been some magic with that Heatley-Thornton-Marleau line with Boyle on defense and Nabokov in goal we'd see things differently. Alas, the Sharks with those players never even made the Cup final. ...
These are all great points. I think these guys who don't deserve the Hall are more Hall worthy than he is: Brian Propp, Ray Whitney, Rick Middleton, Kirk Muller, Rick Tocchet, Jason Arnott, and Steve Thomas.

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07-16-2012, 12:52 AM
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The bad playoff performer was a general observation in that many view San Jose as chokers and Patrick is a lifetime Sharks player.
I agree with your other statement though but your earlier post seemed to dismiss him rather easily so thus the reply on my part.

Patrick doesn't pass the "gut test" of being a HHOF guy either which is pretty important in my books.

Not sure on the 650th ATD ranking but different methods and objectives might happen there and I doubt there is much discussion of the apples to apples comp I brought up.
While Marleau has put up some respectable numbers in the postseason, the "poor postseason performer" idea definitely didn't rise from nowhere. He's had some unforgettable moments... And by unforgettable i'm referring to the type of moments that he would love to forget.

Long before Marleau got called out by Roenick in 2011 for getting toyed with by Datsyuk, he got called out by his own coach: Back in 2007 when Detroit knocked out San Jose by coming from behind in game 4 of a series they were down 2-1 in, Marleau made the lazy play that led to Lang beating him to the puck and eventually scoring the game-tying goal. I'm sure everybody remembers Wilson's displeasure with that.

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07-16-2012, 12:58 AM
  #21
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These are all great points. I think these guys who don't deserve the Hall are more Hall worthy than he is: Brian Propp, Ray Whitney, Rick Middleton, Kirk Muller, Rick Tocchet, Jason Arnott, and Steve Thomas.
Arnott, thomas and muller and even Whitney are not in the same class as Propp, Tocchet and Middleton.

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07-16-2012, 01:58 AM
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Arnott, thomas and muller and even Whitney are not in the same class as Propp, Tocchet and Middleton.
Never said they were.

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07-16-2012, 02:05 AM
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Never said they were.
Okay just clarifying, not sure where Vinny or Patrick end up in this grouping yet, lets see how they age and fair in the homestretch of their careers.

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07-17-2012, 01:11 PM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Relevant yet not mentioned...

Marleau also led Team Canada in special teams ice time, on both the powerplay and penalty kill, in their 2010 gold-medal Olympics. He was third in overall ice time for forwards on the team, behind only Crosby and Nash, who were double shifted a lot for offense.
OK, but is that going to even come up in the conversation if his name comes up in hall talks?

Quote:
Marleau is not over the hill! He could very well have a fourth consecutive 30+ goal season in 2012-13 (at a time in the NHL when very few have had 30 goal seasons the last three seasons). He could also pot a few GWGs in the postseason on the Sharks' way to the Stanley Cup (the team is built to make a cup run). IF that happens, he isn't far off of the mark Hall-wise.
Phil Kessel has four straight 30 goal seasons.

How often does Thornton NOT get his linemate 30+ goals?

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07-17-2012, 02:15 PM
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It's obviously not the only (or possibly even major) contributing factor, but most of these players missed out on a season of play during their prime years due to the lockout. Datsyuk, Elias, St. Louis, and Hossa would all look a little better with that tacked on (as would Iginla and Thornton, not that they need the help), and Kiprusoff/Marleau/Luongo could all have gotten a push into more legitimate HHoF contention as well.

St. Louis and Datsyuk suffered, in particular, since one was a late bloomer and the other just didn't get a chance to play in the NHL until his mid-20s, so it's a larger chunk of games for them.

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