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Potential HHOFers born 1975-1979

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07-17-2012, 03:04 PM
  #26
Dissonance
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
It's obviously not the only (or possibly even major) contributing factor, but most of these players missed out on a season of play during their prime years due to the lockout. Datsyuk, Elias, St. Louis, and Hossa would all look a little better with that tacked on (as would Iginla and Thornton, not that they need the help), and Kiprusoff/Marleau/Luongo could all have gotten a push into more legitimate HHoF contention as well.
Yeah, I'm not sure the lockout changes HOF fortunes for anyone apart from Hossa and Elias, who would’ve been very strong contenders with another top-10 season. (I figure Datsyuk and St. Louis are strong candidates regardless. And maybe Hossa too.)

A few other players who got hurt by the lockout, but probably not enough to matter:

--Another top-10 goal scoring season for Hejduk in 2004-05 would make his candidacy at least seem less absurd, though he’d likely still fall short.

--Ditto for another top-10 scoring season for Marc Savard or Pavol Demitra—both unlikely either way though.

--If Bryan McCabe has another postseason all-star like he did in 2003-04 during the lockout year, maaaaybe he’s a bit closer, although yikes, no way would I ever vote for him.

And I don't see anyone else who might've come within striking distance if they'd played in the lockout.
---------------

The fact that a lot of these guys born 1975-79 were in their prime at the height of the dead puck era probably hurts their candidacy—HOF expectations could be slow to adjust.

I also wonder if players in this tighter-checking era are getting injured more often, which would obviously affect how many players make it to the HOF, since career totals count for a lot.

Or maybe it’s just a fluke and the next 5 years will see more HOF-level players.

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07-17-2012, 03:09 PM
  #27
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Elias will likely hit 1000 pts, plus factor in his playoff points and you've got a hall of famer

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07-17-2012, 03:27 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by blamebettman View Post
Elias will likely hit 1000 pts, plus factor in his playoff points and you've got a hall of famer
My guess is he'll fall just short, but give him another top-10 season in 2004-05 (not unreasonable considering he was playing at that level the year before and after) and adjust for era, and Elias' career looks better than Bernie Federko's. Especially with his playoff record.

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07-17-2012, 05:38 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
My guess is he'll fall just short, but give him another top-10 season in 2004-05 (not unreasonable considering he was playing at that level the year before and after) and adjust for era, and Elias' career looks better than Bernie Federko's. Especially with his playoff record.
Maybe statswise, but numbers don't tell the whole story. Federko was an elite passer, arguably the greatest of his era not named Gretzky (more esteemed than Oates was in his time), and as for playoffs, he once led the playoffs in points without even going to the Finals!

Those who criticize HHOF selections like Federko and Ciccarelli are largely basing it on statistics not the exceptional talents they broiught to the game. I haven't been to the Hall in over a decade, but I sure hope they profile the skills of the Magician and Dino.

Elias? ... Solid NHLer, very good two-way player. How exceptional a talent was he? His peers will decide.

Guys like Doan, Marleau and Elias will certainly have their jerseys retired by their franchise and be remembered thereafter in the cities they played. Whether the history of the sport will include them individually is not yet determined.

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07-17-2012, 05:55 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Maybe statswise, but numbers don't tell the whole story. Federko was an elite passer, arguably the greatest of his era not named Gretzky (more esteemed than Oates was in his time), and as for playoffs, he once led the playoffs in points without even going to the Finals!

Those who criticize HHOF selections like Federko and Ciccarelli are largely basing it on statistics not the exceptional talents they broiught to the game. I haven't been to the Hall in over a decade, but I sure hope they profile the skills of the Magician and Dino.

Elias? ... Solid NHLer, very good two-way player. How exceptional a talent was he? His peers will decide.

Guys like Doan, Marleau and Elias will certainly have their jerseys retired by their franchise and be remembered thereafter in the cities they played. Whether the history of the sport will include them individually is not yet determined.
Then what was it about Elias and what was it about Federko that made their end results in terms of offensive production so remarkably similar? Something had to be the cause. Some skill that you aren't giving Elias credit for, or a skill gap that you're not considering for Federko.

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07-17-2012, 05:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
It's obviously not the only (or possibly even major) contributing factor, but most of these players missed out on a season of play during their prime years due to the lockout. Datsyuk, Elias, St. Louis, and Hossa would all look a little better with that tacked on (as would Iginla and Thornton, not that they need the help), and Kiprusoff/Marleau/Luongo could all have gotten a push into more legitimate HHoF contention as well.

St. Louis and Datsyuk suffered, in particular, since one was a late bloomer and the other just didn't get a chance to play in the NHL until his mid-20s, so it's a larger chunk of games for them.
Elias would probably look a lot better without the lockout, considering he wouldn't have gotten Hepatitis from bad Russian food with no lockout

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07-17-2012, 06:24 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Maybe statswise, but numbers don't tell the whole story. Federko was an elite passer, arguably the greatest of his era not named Gretzky (more esteemed than Oates was in his time), and as for playoffs, he once led the playoffs in points without even going to the Finals!

Those who criticize HHOF selections like Federko and Ciccarelli are largely basing it on statistics not the exceptional talents they broiught to the game. I haven't been to the Hall in over a decade, but I sure hope they profile the skills of the Magician and Dino.
I'm not criticizing Federko's induction. I saw him plenty, he was an excellent player, and I'm fine with him being in the Hall.

But Elias played at a very similar level, and I suspect the main reasons Federko is in the Hall while Elias won't have a chance are: a) Elias essentially missed 2 seasons in his prime, when he was a top-10 offensive player, thanks to the lockout (and resulting hepatitis) and b) Elias played in a lower scoring era, which makes him appear less elite overall, even though their adjusted stats line up almost perfectly.


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07-17-2012, 09:26 PM
  #33
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Was Elias ever a great player? He had that big season in 2001. But ny concern is that his induction would open up the doors for players similar to him. While they have some hockey left, I feel Hossa and Alfredsson have better cases for the HHOF. They were more consistently good and have more seasons as elite players than Elias.

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07-17-2012, 09:32 PM
  #34
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Was Elias ever a great player? He had that big season in 2001. But ny concern is that his induction would open up the doors for players similar to him. While they have some hockey left, I feel Hossa and Alfredsson have better cases for the HHOF. They were more consistently good and have more seasons as elite players than Elias.
Elias would only open up the Hall to players who were the offensive engines of consistent contenders that won more than one Cup. But then, the Hall's doors are traditionally wide open to such players.

(He also has 3 top 10 finishes in scoring to Hossa's 2 for what that's worth).

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07-17-2012, 09:52 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Was Elias ever a great player? He had that big season in 2001. But ny concern is that his induction would open up the doors for players similar to him. While they have some hockey left, I feel Hossa and Alfredsson have better cases for the HHOF. They were more consistently good and have more seasons as elite players than Elias.
Im curious, what do you call a big season? 3 top 10 finishes in points, a very good playoff performer/multiple cup winner and has had international success. Not saying hes a lock, but if he hits 1000, it will be much closer than you think

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07-17-2012, 11:29 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Elias would only open up the Hall to players who were the offensive engines of consistent contenders that won more than one Cup. But then, the Hall's doors are traditionally wide open to such players.

(He also has 3 top 10 finishes in scoring to Hossa's 2 for what that's worth).
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Im curious, what do you call a big season? 3 top 10 finishes in points, a very good playoff performer/multiple cup winner and has had international success. Not saying hes a lock, but if he hits 1000, it will be much closer than you think
Did you ever expect Elias to be an elite player year in and year out? He just wasn't. There are a lot of mediocre years in there. Sure he was around 10th in scoring this year but this was a very weak year for forwards.

Since 1997-'98, and this favours Elias because it is his rookie season, he is 7th in points. Not bad. But he has 889 points in that span. Ray Whitney has 882. He has 0.87 PPG while Whitney has 0.86. Just thought that was an interesting note. Lecavalier in that same time frame has 842 points and a 0.84 PPG despite playing one less season.

The 6 players above Elias in that time frame are Thornton, Iginla, Jagr, Selanne, Alfredsson and Hossa. The top four are HHOF locks. The bottom two have some supporters but still have many who wouldn't induct them - yet. Both players have been more consistently great over that time frame. I don't think you can make a case for Elias over Hossa or Alfredsson and yet there are people who wouldn't put them in there.

There isn't a great reason to put Elias in the HHOF. Nothing that seperates him from the also-rans

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07-17-2012, 11:53 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Bill Phil
Did you ever expect Elias to be an elite player year in and year out? He just wasn't. There are a lot of mediocre years in there. Sure he was around 10th in scoring this year but this was a very weak year for forwards.
Patrik Elias was the most highly sought after free agent in 2006. The Ranger offered him 7 million per (under a lower cap) and he signed with the Devila for 6 million per. So NHL GMs expected him to be an elite player. He had some down years afterwards for a variety of reasons from a scoring perspective afterwards though

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Originally Posted by Big Phil
Since 1997-'98, and this favours Elias because it is his rookie season, he is 7th in points. Not bad. But he has 889 points in that span. Ray Whitney has 882. He has 0.87 PPG while Whitney has 0.86. Just thought that was an interesting note. Lecavalier in that same time frame has 842 points and a 0.84 PPG despite playing one less season.

The 6 players above Elias in that time frame are Thornton, Iginla, Jagr, Selanne, Alfredsson and Hossa. The top four are HHOF locks. The bottom two have some supporters but still have many who wouldn't induct them - yet. Both players have been more consistently great over that time frame. I don't think you can make a case for Elias over Hossa or Alfredsson and yet there are people who wouldn't put them in there.

There isn't a great reason to put Elias in the HHOF. Nothing that seperates him from the also-rans
So you aren't going to even acknowledge Elias' contribution to team success?

By the way, I expect Alfredsson to be inducted, as well.

Here's an interesting factoid:

Quote:
Thirty-four players have recorded 1,000 points with one franchise and all but one, Dave Taylor of the Los Angeles Kings, is in the Hall of Fame.
http://thegoodpoint.com/2011/12/patrik-elias-records/


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07-18-2012, 12:05 AM
  #38
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Since 1997-'98, and this favours Elias because it is his rookie season, he is 7th in points. Not bad. But he has 889 points in that span. Ray Whitney has 882. He has 0.87 PPG while Whitney has 0.86. Just thought that was an interesting note. Lecavalier in that same time frame has 842 points and a 0.84 PPG despite playing one less season.

The 6 players above Elias in that time frame are Thornton, Iginla, Jagr, Selanne, Alfredsson and Hossa. The top four are HHOF locks. The bottom two have some supporters but still have many who wouldn't induct them - yet. Both players have been more consistently great over that time frame. I don't think you can make a case for Elias over Hossa or Alfredsson and yet there are people who wouldn't put them in there.

There isn't a great reason to put Elias in the HHOF. Nothing that seperates him from the also-rans
You bring up some good points about Elias. However, he does have something that separates him from other similar players, at least in the eyes of the HHOF: He has won 2 Cups and gone to 4 SCF so far. He was the top regular season scorer on 3 of those teams (and at age 35, finished 2nd to a prime Kovalchuk last year), and was the leading playoff scorer on two of those, including a Cup winner.

He's probably not going to have the totals of Alfredsson and Hossa, and that's no surprise. There were points earlier in their careers when you really thought Hossa and Alfie were going to become even bigger stars than they became and do more damage on the leaderboards and in trophy voting than they did. Maybe it's a Sens thing, as you could say the same of Yashin as well. Elias has been the forward that made the Devils tick for most of his career, and the Devils were one of the strongest teams in the league during that time. That has to count for something. While he may not have separated himself from some/all of the other "also-rans" in many respects, I'm not sure it would be right to induct players like Alfie and Hossa and not Elias. Alfie stayed with one team and Hossa won a Cup and went to multiple SCF, but Elias did both, which should impress the committee to some degree.

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07-18-2012, 12:06 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Here's an interesting factoid:

Quote:
Thirty-four players have recorded 1,000 points with one franchise and all but one, Dave Taylor of the Los Angeles Kings, is in the Hall of Fame.

http://thegoodpoint.com/2011/12/patrik-elias-records/
Ah, relevant to Alfredsson, Elias, Marleau and Lecavalier (Hejduk and Doan not likely to reach it, but could).

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07-18-2012, 12:17 AM
  #40
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So you aren't going to even acknowledge Elias' contribution to team success?

By the way, I expect Alfredsson to be inducted, as well.
Sure we are. That is the stuff that seperates him from a guy like Ray Whitney. He did do very well in the postseason. However, is that enough? Is he a legendary postseason performer? Do we associate him as being the top Devil in that time frame? I think of Stevens, Brodeur, Niedermayer and then Elias in that 4 year span. You would have liked to have seen him seperate himself a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
You bring up some good points about Elias. However, he does have something that separates him from other similar players, at least in the eyes of the HHOF: He has won 2 Cups and gone to 4 SCF so far. He was the top regular season scorer on 3 of those teams (and at age 35, finished 2nd to a prime Kovalchuk last year), and was the leading playoff scorer on two of those, including a Cup winner.

He's probably not going to have the totals of Alfredsson and Hossa, and that's no surprise. There were points earlier in their careers when you really thought Hossa and Alfie were going to become even bigger stars than they became and do more damage on the leaderboards and in trophy voting than they did. Maybe it's a Sens thing, as you could say the same of Yashin as well. Elias has been the forward that made the Devils tick for most of his career, and the Devils were one of the strongest teams in the league during that time. That has to count for something. While he may not have separated himself from some/all of the other "also-rans" in many respects, I'm not sure it would be right to induct players like Alfie and Hossa and not Elias. Alfie stayed with one team and Hossa won a Cup and went to multiple SCF, but Elias did both, which should impress the committee to some degree.
There are things that bother me about him. He finishes 6th in Hart voting in 2001. That's fine. But then his next best is 17th. I know I said he doesn't have enough elite seasons but this just nails it right here. That's the evidence of my statement. It was obvious no one thought he was the straw that stirred the drink.

And the career totals. He has 894 points right now. He might not crack 1000. And if he does? Well, Alexei Kovalev did it too. I don't think that's enough. He could have played much better in the postseason this year

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07-18-2012, 12:18 AM
  #41
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Sure we are. That is the stuff that seperates him from a guy like Ray Whitney. He did do very well in the postseason. However, is that enough? Is he a legendary postseason performer? Do we associate him as being the top Devil in that time frame? I think of Stevens, Brodeur, Niedermayer and then Elias in that 4 year span. You would have liked to have seen him seperate himself a bit more.



There are things that bother me about him. He finishes 6th in Hart voting in 2001. That's fine. But then his next best is 17th. I know I said he doesn't have enough elite seasons but this just nails it right here. That's the evidence of my statement. It was obvious no one thought he was the straw that stirred the drink.

And the career totals. He has 894 points right now. He might not crack 1000. And if he does? Well, Alexei Kovalev did it too. I don't think that's enough. He could have played much better in the postseason this year
He had surgery following the playoffs

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07-18-2012, 08:34 AM
  #42
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Sure we are. That is the stuff that seperates him from a guy like Ray Whitney. He did do very well in the postseason. However, is that enough? Is he a legendary postseason performer? Do we associate him as being the top Devil in that time frame? I think of Stevens, Brodeur, Niedermayer and then Elias in that 4 year span. You would have liked to have seen him seperate himself a bit more.
Well, he is the leading playoff scorer of the 00s.

Leading playoff scorers by decade:

1920s: Cy Denneny
1930s: Marty Barry / Charlie Conacher
1940s: Toe Blake
1950s: Bernie Geoffrion
1960s: Jean Beliveau / Bobby Hull
1970s: Guy Lafleur / Jacques Lemaire
1980s: Wayne Gretzky
1990s: Mario Lemieux
2000s: Patrik Elias

(Surprised by the fact that there were three ties)

Quote:
There are things that bother me about him. He finishes 6th in Hart voting in 2001. That's fine. But then his next best is 17th. I know I said he doesn't have enough elite seasons but this just nails it right here. That's the evidence of my statement. It was obvious no one thought he was the straw that stirred the drink.

And the career totals. He has 894 points right now. He might not crack 1000. And if he does? Well, Alexei Kovalev did it too. I don't think that's enough. He could have played much better in the postseason this year
The season Elias was 17th in Hart voting, he was 6th in points and 4th in goals playing for a defensive-minded Pat Burns team. Brodeur and Niedermayer took most of the Hart votes for the team, but that absolutely was an elite season.

Thats really swell about Kovalev and all. If career point totals was the main case for Elias, you'd have a point. The case for Elias is that he was the offensive engine for one of the most successful teams of te modern era. 1000 points would be useful for him to hit because career point totals are the weakness on his resume so far. I don't think Elias is a lock for the Hall, but if he reaches 1000 points and doesn't make it, he'd be a pretty big snub based on who the Hall has already.

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07-18-2012, 09:29 AM
  #43
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Comparable

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Well, he is the leading playoff scorer of the 00s.

Leading playoff scorers by decade:

1920s: Cy Denneny
1930s: Marty Barry / Charlie Conacher
1940s: Toe Blake
1950s: Bernie Geoffrion
1960s: Jean Beliveau / Bobby Hull
1970s: Guy Lafleur / Jacques Lemaire
1980s: Wayne Gretzky
1990s: Mario Lemieux
2000s: Patrik Elias

(Surprised by the fact that there were three ties)



The season Elias was 17th in Hart voting, he was 6th in points and 4th in goals playing for a defensive-minded Pat Burns team. Brodeur and Niedermayer took most of the Hart votes for the team, but that absolutely was an elite season.

Thats really swell about Kovalev and all. If career point totals was the main case for Elias, you'd have a point. The case for Elias is that he was the offensive engine for one of the most successful teams of te modern era. 1000 points would be useful for him to hit because career point totals are the weakness on his resume so far. I don't think Elias is a lock for the Hall, but if he reaches 1000 points and doesn't make it, he'd be a pretty big snub based on who the Hall has already.
The key comparable for Patrick Elias is bolded. Effectively in the stretch from 2000-2009 he managed what Jacques Lemaire did in the 1970s while being a key player in the teams defense.

He will make the HHOF.

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07-19-2012, 06:36 PM
  #44
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I don't think Marleau's an HHOFer. Nor will he ever be one. But he has a realistic shot at being the first guy to get 500 goals with one team, and not get in the HHOF. Which, depending on your perspective, is either going to be an impressive accomplishment, or a distinction that you don't want. But somebody has to be the standard-setter from a career numbers perspective.

Marleau's a guy who has always bothered me. He's very streaky. He has developed a very good two-way game, and he has learned to contribute when he's not scoring. But he's also a guy who had the ability to be a 35-40-goal, point-per-game threat each year. But he goes through these prolonged stretches without production.

And that has been reflected his playoff production. There have been years, like 2004 and 2006, in which he's gone on one of his scoring binges. And then he's disappeared in the next round. And there have been years in which he's hit one of his slumps from the outset of the playoffs.

He has had a terrific career. Didn't become a superstar like many (myself included) thought he would be. He has developed a good, two-way presence, and he made a smooth transition to the wing a few years ago. But he's not going into the HHOF, even if he scores his first 500 goals with the Sharks.

I'm not as bullish on Hossa's HHOF case as some people are, but it's a "not yet," not a "no." He's a guy who'll need to hit some career numbers to reach HHOF status. If he comes back from the concussion and returns to the level that we're used to from him (I'm optimistic, but it's not a given), and gets 300 more points, then I think he's a lock. 1,200 points, a ring, two trips to the final, strong two-way presence - yeah, he'd get my vote. Right now? He's not there. And thanks to Raffi Torres, getting there could be an issue.

Hossa certainly deserves credit for becoming the player he has been since entering the NHL. I don't know if a European has ever benefited as much from a year in Canadian junior as Hossa did in 1997-98.

I really like Elias. I like the fact that he was, at one time, for my money, the best two-way winger in the game. (New Jersey has a knack for producing them. Parise had that distinction for a year or two before the knee injury. We don't make a big deal about it like we do the best two-way centre in the game, but it's still a heck of a distinction). He was a first team all-star in 2001 and he should have been one in 2004. And in that stretch from 1999 to 2004, when he was playing such great hockey, he won two championships.

As good as he's been, I've always found Elias a little mercurial at times. And obviously, he hasn't been at the same level of play after the lockout as he was before the lockout. He's another guy who'll need to hit 1,200 points to get in the HHOF. It's going to be tougher for him than Hossa, since he's three years older.

I think you're going to see an influx of guys hit 1,000 points with the same team moving forward. You'll see a lot of players get 60-70 points a year for well over a decade, and do it with one team. Elias and Lecavalier will likely be the next two to do it. Dave Taylor won't be the only player with 1,000 points with the same team, who isn't in the HHOFer, for much longer.

As for the original question: I think the root of the problem is that when these players were coming through the systems in the 80s and 90s, it was when a lot of hockey programs were mired in their "teach systems, not skills" mentality that did a lot of damage to the game. Look at those drafts. 1996? Horrible. 1997? Shallow. 1995 and 1994? Average at best. 1993? Above average. Looking beyond those drafts, 1992, 1999 and 2000 are three of the worst in a long time. There were two good drafts from 1992 to 2000: 1993 and 1998. We were putting too much emphasis on systems and winning in minor hockey, and we weren't the only culprits. After our fourth place finish at the 1998 Olympics, we knew that changes had to be made. So we allowed the two-line pass, and we renewed our commitment to skilled, up-temp hockey. That's been a big difference. Canada's had some tremendous draft classes in the last decade; it started in 2003, and it continued in 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010. Skilled, two-way defencemen who move the puck; skilled forwards who are adept at making plays or finishing them. In the past decade, Sweden and the U.S. have realized the folly in teaching systems instead of skills to young players.

When they're eight, 10, 12 years old, let them skate and play the game. That's why I love shinny and three-on-three leagues. Systems, defensive play and a strong emphasis on winning should wait until they're in midget or junior.


Last edited by God Bless Canada: 07-19-2012 at 06:46 PM.
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07-19-2012, 07:00 PM
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I haven't been to the Hall in over a decade, but I sure hope they profile the skills of the Magician and Dino...
... whatre' you thinkin for Ciccarelli? One of those old fashioned free-standing naughty "Peek-A-Boo" machines that they had in like the 1920's?. Living room curtains opening, then closing, opening, then closing, Dino Baby standing there in his Birthday Suit?. I wouldnt waste a plug nickle on that show Bud, and besides which, the HHOF is rated PG, not XXX.

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07-19-2012, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post

As for the original question: I think the root of the problem is that when these players were coming through the systems in the 80s and 90s, it was when a lot of hockey programs were mired in their "teach systems, not skills" mentality that did a lot of damage to the game. Look at those drafts. 1996? Horrible. 1997? Shallow. 1995 and 1994? Average at best. 1993? Above average. Looking beyond those drafts, 1992, 1999 and 2000 are three of the worst in a long time. There were two good drafts from 1992 to 2000: 1993 and 1998. We were putting too much emphasis on systems and winning in minor hockey, and we weren't the only culprits. After our fourth place finish at the 1998 Olympics, we knew that changes had to be made. So we allowed the two-line pass, and we renewed our commitment to skilled, up-temp hockey. That's been a big difference. Canada's had some tremendous draft classes in the last decade; it started in 2003, and it continued in 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010. Skilled, two-way defencemen who move the puck; skilled forwards who are adept at making plays or finishing them. In the past decade, Sweden and the U.S. have realized the folly in teaching systems instead of skills to young players.

When they're eight, 10, 12 years old, let them skate and play the game. That's why I love shinny and three-on-three leagues. Systems, defensive play and a strong emphasis on winning should wait until they're in midget or junior.
Eighties was also the era of associations merging and consolidating so kids were lost in the shuffle.

3 on 3, great idea especially if there is a goal limit per player. Kids learn to pass earlier. Also they learn to play defense by default. The rink is smaller and removing two skaters means there is a rotation with a sharing of the defensive positions and responsibilities, yet the kids are not locked into a system.

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07-20-2012, 12:31 AM
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Well, he is the leading playoff scorer of the 00s.

Leading playoff scorers by decade:

1920s: Cy Denneny
1930s: Marty Barry / Charlie Conacher
1940s: Toe Blake
1950s: Bernie Geoffrion
1960s: Jean Beliveau / Bobby Hull
1970s: Guy Lafleur / Jacques Lemaire
1980s: Wayne Gretzky
1990s: Mario Lemieux
2000s: Patrik Elias

(Surprised by the fact that there were three ties)
Hmmm.............

That being said:
Playoff points since the lockout:
Briere - 106
Zetterberg - 97
Crosby - 90

We're talking about 7 years here, and I think Briere could hold onto that title for an entire decade too. I don't think he belongs in the HHOF because of it though.


Quote:
The season Elias was 17th in Hart voting, he was 6th in points and 4th in goals playing for a defensive-minded Pat Burns team. Brodeur and Niedermayer took most of the Hart votes for the team, but that absolutely was an elite season.

Thats really swell about Kovalev and all. If career point totals was the main case for Elias, you'd have a point. The case for Elias is that he was the offensive engine for one of the most successful teams of te modern era. 1000 points would be useful for him to hit because career point totals are the weakness on his resume so far. I don't think Elias is a lock for the Hall, but if he reaches 1000 points and doesn't make it, he'd be a pretty big snub based on who the Hall has already
See, your getting into trouble when you mention that he is better than some members in there already. I never like that when comparing a player. I think it is what helped get Neely in there. My theory is that you never compare a player to another player in the HHOF unless it is almost unanimous that this player is deserving to be in there in the first place. Saying: "Gillies is in so he should be in" isn't doing the player any favours. However, saying: "I can't see how they were any worse than Sittler" is a little different. I would estimate you'd get 90% of support for Sittler being in there if not more. Basically he is a bottom of the line HHOFer but it is almost unanimous that he still belongs. I don't mind when someone looks at the career of Sundin and sees that it compares favourably, or at least as good, as Sittler's.

But another point I wanted to bring up is the pecking order for those great Devils teams. Where does Elias stand? I have him 4th. He's got to be behind Stevens, Brodeur and Niedermayer. I have never seen a team as successful as the Devils that didn't have a forward in their top 2 of important players. That tells you something there. Just how interchangeable was Elias? He did well and all but did he have as big of an impact that has been brought up?

I think we really need to look hard at him before he gets into Nieuwendyk territory and just constantly repeating that he's a deserving HHOFer becomes normal. Does HHOF roll off your tongue when you say Patrick Elias? That is the gut test.

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07-20-2012, 01:04 AM
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Hmmm.............

That being said:
Playoff points since the lockout:
Briere - 106
Zetterberg - 97
Crosby - 90

We're talking about 7 years here, and I think Briere could hold onto that title for an entire decade too. I don't think he belongs in the HHOF because of it though.
I guess your point is that if you compare an arbitrary 10 year period, you might have a weird leader. And I suppose that is true. But your prior point was that Elias wasn't a legendary playoff performer, and I think that's wrong. For the record, I think Briere is a lengendary playoff performer too, but he lacks both Elias' two-way game (regular season and playoffs), and has a much weaker regular season resume than Elias.

Quote:
See, your getting into trouble when you mention that he is better than some members in there already. I never like that when comparing a player. I think it is what helped get Neely in there. My theory is that you never compare a player to another player in the HHOF unless it is almost unanimous that this player is deserving to be in there in the first place. Saying: "Gillies is in so he should be in" isn't doing the player any favours. However, saying: "I can't see how they were any worse than Sittler" is a little different. I would estimate you'd get 90% of support for Sittler being in there if not more. Basically he is a bottom of the line HHOFer but it is almost unanimous that he still belongs. I don't mind when someone looks at the career of Sundin and sees that it compares favourably, or at least as good, as Sittler's.
Okay, I'll say it. I can't see what makes Elias any worse than Sittler.

Quote:
But another point I wanted to bring up is the pecking order for those great Devils teams. Where does Elias stand? I have him 4th. He's got to be behind Stevens, Brodeur and Niedermayer. I have never seen a team as successful as the Devils that didn't have a forward in their top 2 of important players.
You tell me this Phil, why are you taking it as a given that a team that went to the finals 3 times in 4 years, while winning two Cups along the way absolutely does not deserve more than 3 players in the HHOF? How many players will the Avs and Red Wings of the time frame get into the Hall? How many will the Stars get into the Hall? How many did dynasties of old get into the Hall?

As for the pecking order on those Devils teams, Elias was probably 3rd after the Brodeur/Stevens duo. He was definitely 3rd from 1999-00 to 2001-02. Remember that (edit: with the exception of the 97-98 blip) Niedermayer didn't break out until the 2003 playoffs (when he could have easily won the Smythe IMO). Even in Scott Niedermayer's Norris year, it's arguable whether he was more valuable than Elias, who finished 6th in points and 4th in goals in the league, leading the team by large margins in both, while playing in Pat Burns' defensive system. (Any Devils fan will tell you that the 2003-04 Devils had Brodeur, Niedermayer, and Elias playing like stars and the rest of the team well behind). Yes, Niedermayer had a better overall career than Elias as a player, but Elias was arguably more important to the Devils even when they were both on the team.

Quote:
That tells you something there. Just how interchangeable was Elias? He did well and all but did he have as big of an impact that has been brought up?
Strange that you think the player who led the team in scoring 8 times could be interchangeable, but there is this:

2005-06:

Devils record while Elias was sidelined with Hepatitis: 16-18-5.
Devils record after Elias returned: 30-9-4

Quote:
I think we really need to look hard at him before he gets into Nieuwendyk territory and just constantly repeating that he's a deserving HHOFer becomes normal. Does HHOF roll off your tongue when you say Patrick Elias? That is the gut test.
Elias never played in Toronto, so I don't think we have to worry about the usual suspects repeating that he should be a HHOF until it's true.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 07-20-2012 at 01:12 AM.
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07-20-2012, 01:09 AM
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Interesting Trend

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

But another point I wanted to bring up is the pecking order for those great Devils teams. Where does Elias stand? I have him 4th. He's got to be behind Stevens, Brodeur and Niedermayer. I have never seen a team as successful as the Devils that didn't have a forward in their top 2 of important players. That tells you something there. Just how interchangeable was Elias? He did well and all but did he have as big of an impact that has been brought up?

I think we really need to look hard at him before he gets into Nieuwendyk territory and just constantly repeating that he's a deserving HHOFer becomes normal. Does HHOF roll off your tongue when you say Patrick Elias? That is the gut test.
Interesting trend since 2006 for SC champions.Top 2 players:

2012 - Quick, Doughtey.
2011 - Thomas, Chara,
2007 - Giguere, Pronger Niegermauer.

When Elias is up for consideration it will be at least 5 seasons down the road.

Second point. If Patrik Elias is interchangeable then which single player could have replaced him on the Devils for the full length of his career?

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07-20-2012, 04:17 PM
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Interesting trend since 2006 for SC champions.Top 2 players:

2012 - Quick, Doughtey.
2011 - Thomas, Chara,
2007 - Giguere, Pronger Niegermauer.

When Elias is up for consideration it will be at least 5 seasons down the road.

Second point. If Patrik Elias is interchangeable then which single player could have replaced him on the Devils for the full length of his career?
None of those teams had the success of the Devils. The Devils made 3 finals in 4 years winning twice. That is a great team for a few years. Whether it is the Avs, Stars or Red Wings their forwards were far more of a factor in their Cup wins. Those three years you picked are a little arbitrary though don't you think? I honestly can't think of a team post expansion where a forward wasn't even among the top 2 players on the team. The only other possible mention might be the 1989 Flames (MacInnis, Vernon) but that all depends on how well you view Mullen and Gilmour. My point is that Elias doesn't stand out at all. You could never win a Cup if he was your most important player. During what we would call his peak he had 56 points in 72 games in those three trips to the final. Petr Sykora had 52 points in 69 games (in 2003 Sykora was with the Ducks who made the final against Elias' Devils). Is there a whole lot of difference between these two at that time? Not really.

You asked who Elias could be interchangeable with on his own team, well, Sykora for those years wasn't much of a downgrade on that team. But I was personally talking about around the NHL with his peers.

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I guess your point is that if you compare an arbitrary 10 year period, you might have a weird leader. And I suppose that is true. But your prior point was that Elias wasn't a legendary playoff performer, and I think that's wrong. For the record, I think Briere is a lengendary playoff performer too, but he lacks both Elias' two-way game (regular season and playoffs), and has a much weaker regular season resume than Elias.
No, its fine that Elias has a 10 year span where he led the playoffs in points but like Briere you need other things to make up for that for the HHOF.

Quote:
Okay, I'll say it. I can't see what makes Elias any worse than Sittler.
You can't?


Quote:
You tell me this Phil, why are you taking it as a given that a team that went to the finals 3 times in 4 years, while winning two Cups along the way absolutely does not deserve more than 3 players in the HHOF? How many players will the Avs and Red Wings of the time frame get into the Hall? How many will the Stars get into the Hall? How many did dynasties of old get into the Hall?

As for the pecking order on those Devils teams, Elias was probably 3rd after the Brodeur/Stevens duo. He was definitely 3rd from 1999-00 to 2001-02. Remember that (edit: with the exception of the 97-98 blip) Niedermayer didn't break out until the 2003 playoffs (when he could have easily won the Smythe IMO). Even in Scott Niedermayer's Norris year, it's arguable whether he was more valuable than Elias, who finished 6th in points and 4th in goals in the league, leading the team by large margins in both, while playing in Pat Burns' defensive system. (Any Devils fan will tell you that the 2003-04 Devils had Brodeur, Niedermayer, and Elias playing like stars and the rest of the team well behind). Yes, Niedermayer had a better overall career than Elias as a player, but Elias was arguably more important to the Devils even when they were both on the team.
The Devils will for sure have three HHOFers on that team. Brodeur, Stevens and Niedermayer. Other than that, it is a noticeable drop and the next best would be Elias. The Avs, Stars and Red Wings will have the following in the HHOF:

Avs - Roy, Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, Bourque
Stars - Modano, Hull, Belfour, Nieuwendyk
Red Wings - (far more than the others)

The issue here is that Nieuwendyk doesn't deserve to be in there anymore than Elias does. That's not a healthy standard to set. The first three Avs are locks, the other two played just for the one Cup if that matters to you. The Red Wings even without 2002 have more. So really, would it be that unusual for the Devils to only have three HHOFers from that team? They were known as a well balanced team with strong defense, not a team led by Elias.

Finally, numbers have got to count for something. The best players in the world are at a point a game for their careers, even in the dead puck era they were. Elias is too far for that and I can only assume that his PPG ratio will go down more. That isn't going to help him. Sure he might crack 1,000 points, but he might need 1,200 or more games to do it. He should not get inducted.

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