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Potential HHOFers born 1975-1979

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Old
07-20-2012, 04:55 PM
  #51
Canadiens1958
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Winning Cups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
None of those teams had the success of the Devils. The Devils made 3 finals in 4 years winning twice. That is a great team for a few years. Whether it is the Avs, Stars or Red Wings their forwards were far more of a factor in their Cup wins. Those three years you picked are a little arbitrary though don't you think? I honestly can't think of a team post expansion where a forward wasn't even among the top 2 players on the team. The only other possible mention might be the 1989 Flames (MacInnis, Vernon) but that all depends on how well you view Mullen and Gilmour. My point is that Elias doesn't stand out at all. You could never win a Cup if he was your most important player. During what we would call his peak he had 56 points in 72 games in those three trips to the final. Petr Sykora had 52 points in 69 games (in 2003 Sykora was with the Ducks who made the final against Elias' Devils). Is there a whole lot of difference between these two at that time? Not really.

You asked who Elias could be interchangeable with on his own team, well, Sykora for those years wasn't much of a downgrade on that team. But I was personally talking about around the NHL with his peers.
Again looking at the Devils from a perspective of 10 years down the road. So apply the same perspective to the teams I mentioned.

1986 Canadiens with Patrick Roy and Larry Robinson.

Compare Elias with the most important forward on the following cup winners. 1993 Canadiens, 1986 Canadiens. None had the overall game or longevity. Through in some of the recent winners - Anaheim, LA, Boston, Tampa Bay, Carolina and you more or less have the same answer. Perhaps a higher peak but not in terms of overall game or longevity or contribution to that specific SC victory or team.

Elias is a more complete player than Sykora. What did Sykora do without Elias? No other comparable from the NHL LW unless you go the HHOF route - Shanahan.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-20-2012 at 04:56 PM. Reason: typo
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Old
07-20-2012, 05:31 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Okay, I'll say it. I can't see what makes Elias any worse than Sittler.
Was going to disagree with this and say Sittler’s well above Elias, but on second thought, I guess it’s not an absurd comparison. I realize adjusted points aren’t a perfect metric, but looking at their best seasons in adjusted points, they’re eerily similar:

Elias: 104, 94, 86, 81, 78, 70, 69, 67
Sittler: 105, 87, 82, 80, 80, 74, 73, 72

Sittler has five top-ten scoring seasons, while Elias only has three, but again, Elias was on pace to be top-ten in scoring in 2005-06 and missed a prime year during the lockout. Both had very comparable peak seasons. Sittler was a lot more physical and it's hard to judge how they compare defensively, though Elias was excellent in this regard.

I dunno. Something about Elias in the HOF seems weird, but like God Bless Canada says, there was a lot to like about him as a player, he was a key guy on multiple Cup winners, and if he can get to 1,200 points (which would basically require replicating Mark Recchi's career after the age of 35) then it'll be hard to say no.

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07-20-2012, 05:42 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
None of those teams had the success of the Devils. The Devils made 3 finals in 4 years winning twice. That is a great team for a few years. Whether it is the Avs, Stars or Red Wings their forwards were far more of a factor in their Cup wins. Those three years you picked are a little arbitrary though don't you think? I honestly can't think of a team post expansion where a forward wasn't even among the top 2 players on the team. The only other possible mention might be the 1989 Flames (MacInnis, Vernon) but that all depends on how well you view Mullen and Gilmour. My point is that Elias doesn't stand out at all. You could never win a Cup if he was your most important player. During what we would call his peak he had 56 points in 72 games in those three trips to the final. Petr Sykora had 52 points in 69 games (in 2003 Sykora was with the Ducks who made the final against Elias' Devils). Is there a whole lot of difference between these two at that time? Not really.

You asked who Elias could be interchangeable with on his own team, well, Sykora for those years wasn't much of a downgrade on that team. But I was personally talking about around the NHL with his peers.
Canadiens1958 basically covered it, but seriously? Elias was the primary puck mover and defensive conscience of the A-line on top of outscoring Sykora. Sykora was basically a triggerman with pretty good puck skills, and that's it.

Elias and Sykora played together regularly from 1999-00 to 2001-02

Elias regular season: 229 points in 229 games
Sykora regular season: 197 points in 225 games

Elias playoffs: 49 points in 55 games
Sykora points: 40 points in 52 games + refusing to play with an injured foot in the 2002 first round, which caused Scott Stevens and Ken Daneyko to threaten him with physical harm. He was then traded in the offseason.

And again, that's ignoring just how much more important Elias was (both in terms of puck possession and defense) without the puck.

I don't know what kind of shell game you're playing here, Phil. You keep pulling out names of non HHOFers who are close to Elias in one particular aspect and emphasizing that, while ignoring the rest of Elias' resume.

__________________

As for Elias vs Sittler

Best seasons by adjusted points:

Sittler: 105, 87, 82, 80, 80, 74, 73, 72, 69, 66, 51, 50, 32, 22, 16
Elias: 104, 94, 86, 81, 78, 70, 69, 67, 64, 59, 56, 51, 44, 43, 5

Career adjusted points:

Sittler: 959 in 1096 games
Elias: 972 in 1042 games

Adjusted points may favor dead puck era players vs players from the 70s; I'm not sure. Players from the 80s are the ones who we know are hurt too much by traditional adjusted points. I would be interested in seeing CYM's "adjusted adjusted points."

And of course, Elias has a reputation as a very good two-way player. And his playoff resume is MUCH better than Sittler's. But I guess he falls short in the most important category - playing for the Maple Leafs.

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07-20-2012, 05:48 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Canadiens1958 basically covered it, but seriously? Elias was the primary puck mover and defensive conscience of the A-line on top of outscoring Sykora. Sykora was basically a triggerman with pretty good puck skills, and that's it.

Elias and Sykora played together regularly from 1999-00 to 2001-02

Elias regular season: 229 points in 229 games
Sykora regular season: 197 points in 225 games

Elias playoffs: 49 points in 55 games
Sykora points: 40 points in 52 games + refusing to play with an injured foot in the 2002 first round, which caused Scott Stevens and Ken Daneyko to threaten him with physical harm. He was then traded in the offseason.

And again, that's ignoring just how much more important Elias was (both in terms of puck possession and defense) without the puck.

I don't know what kind of shell game you're playing here, Phil. You keep pulling out names of non HHOFers who are close to Elias in one particular aspect and emphasizing that, while ignoring the rest of Elias' resume.

__________________

As for Elias vs Sittler

Best seasons by adjusted points:

Sittler: 105, 87, 82, 80, 80, 74, 73, 72, 69, 66, 51, 50, 32, 22, 16
Elias: 104, 94, 86, 81, 78, 70, 69, 67, 64, 59, 56, 51, 44, 43, 5

Career adjusted points:

Sittler: 959 in 1096 games
Elias: 972 in 1042 games

Adjusted points may favor dead puck era players vs players from the 70s; I'm not sure. Players from the 80s are the ones who we know are hurt too much by traditional adjusted points. I would be interested in seeing CYM's "adjusted adjusted points."

And of course, Elias has a reputation as a very good two-way player. And his playoff resume is MUCH better than Sittler's. But I guess he falls short in the most important category - playing for the Maple Leafs.
i think you mean the 1976 canada cup team.

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Old
07-20-2012, 06:29 PM
  #55
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thornton and iggy are locks

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Old
07-21-2012, 12:10 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't know what kind of shell game you're playing here, Phil. You keep pulling out names of non HHOFers who are close to Elias in one particular aspect and emphasizing that, while ignoring the rest of Elias' resume.
When you take Elias' entire career (which I am judging the entirety) he lags well behind potentially borderline HHOFers of his era. Alfredsson and Hossa are both at around a point per game in their career despite both being at least as good defensively if not better. I myself have complained about Alfredsson's playoff resume which is weak outside of 2007 and I maintain that could keep him out of the HHOF but he is also a guy who was far more consistent than Elias and has more seasons near the top of the NHL. Hossa himself has played in just one less Cup final than Elias. He too has had some playoff success and his best playoff year was as good as Elias'. Not to mention already being younger but having more points, a better PPG and better defensively. If these two guys are the barometer for this generation making the HHOF that doesn't bode well for Elias since he is behind them overall.

Quote:
As for Elias vs Sittler

Best seasons by adjusted points:

Sittler: 105, 87, 82, 80, 80, 74, 73, 72, 69, 66, 51, 50, 32, 22, 16
Elias: 104, 94, 86, 81, 78, 70, 69, 67, 64, 59, 56, 51, 44, 43, 5

Career adjusted points:

Sittler: 959 in 1096 games
Elias: 972 in 1042 games

Adjusted points may favor dead puck era players vs players from the 70s; I'm not sure. Players from the 80s are the ones who we know are hurt too much by traditional adjusted points. I would be interested in seeing CYM's "adjusted adjusted points."

And of course, Elias has a reputation as a very good two-way player. And his playoff resume is MUCH better than Sittler's. But I guess he falls short in the most important category - playing for the Maple Leafs.
As for Sittler, from my perspective it has nothing to do with him being a Maple Leaf. I don't think with a straight face anyone can say Elias was as revered during his time as Sittler was during his time. Sittler peaked higher for sure and Elias never sustained the level that Sittler had for at least half a dozen seasons. Give him the playoff edge over Sittler, but really, can anyone say Sittler didn't do his part?

I don't know how you would make a case to pick Elias over Sittler if you were picking a player to build your team around. That should really be a no-brainer for anyone on the HOH board. Adjusted points will always slant it in favour of Elias and I am sure you know this by now so take them for what they are worth. But I will ask, as a Devils fan do you feel in the bottom of your heart that Elias belongs in the HHOF or do you WANT him in there? I want John Tonelli in there, but don't feel he deserves it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Again looking at the Devils from a perspective of 10 years down the road. So apply the same perspective to the teams I mentioned.

1986 Canadiens with Patrick Roy and Larry Robinson.

Compare Elias with the most important forward on the following cup winners. 1993 Canadiens, 1986 Canadiens. None had the overall game or longevity. Through in some of the recent winners - Anaheim, LA, Boston, Tampa Bay, Carolina and you more or less have the same answer. Perhaps a higher peak but not in terms of overall game or longevity or contribution to that specific SC victory or team.

Elias is a more complete player than Sykora. What did Sykora do without Elias? No other comparable from the NHL LW unless you go the HHOF route - Shanahan.
I too take Elias over Sykora, but my point was to show you that from a production standpoint they weren't very different.

Also let's look at another piece of the puzzle here. The all-star nods. We can agree that Elias played at a rather weak LW position at that time where it might have been easy to garner all-star nods and yet............

Elias: 1st (2001). That was his only all-star nod at a weak position. The next best was finishing 3rd in 2004 and 5th in 2000. That's a very poor record at the LW position. Clark Gillies has better finishes. Nothing about that screams HHOFer in my books.

As for your recent questions, Elias compares to some top forwards on Cup winners, but the only problem is that they aren't making the HHOF either. Damphousse in 1993. Actually pretty comparable to Elias, just as good really, and yet he's not going to the HHOF. Selanne in 2007? A given, no comparison to Elias. Carolina, Boston and L.A. are too young to know yet. Staal could have a better career. Hard to say on Boston and Richards, Carter or Kopitar could surpass him eventually. But HHOF for any of them? Just Selanne who has a career that is far different and was still elite in 2007. These comparisons don't help Elias at all.

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Old
07-21-2012, 10:33 AM
  #57
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Hart winners often get in the HHOF.

A Hart winner that will not get in was born in that timespan.

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07-21-2012, 06:10 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
When you take Elias' entire career (which I am judging the entirety) he lags well behind potentially borderline HHOFers of his era. Alfredsson and Hossa are both at around a point per game in their career despite both being at least as good defensively if not better. I myself have complained about Alfredsson's playoff resume which is weak outside of 2007 and I maintain that could keep him out of the HHOF but he is also a guy who was far more consistent than Elias and has more seasons near the top of the NHL. Hossa himself has played in just one less Cup final than Elias. He too has had some playoff success and his best playoff year was as good as Elias'. Not to mention already being younger but having more points, a better PPG and better defensively. If these two guys are the barometer for this generation making the HHOF that doesn't bode well for Elias since he is behind them overall.
I'll ignore Alfredsson for now because I agree that he is and will remain ahead of Elias in terms of the regular season, and it seems that you only care about the playoffs when it applies to long retired players (see your comments in the Lafleur vs Malkin/Ovechkin thread).

As for Hossa, I couldn't disagree more than he's ahead of Elias. Their regular season offensive totals are very similar: 904 points in 978 games for Hossa, 894 in 1042 games for Elias. Slight advantage to Hossa on the surface until you realize that

1) Hossa spent a large portion of his career playing for the run and gun Thrashers. Even the Senators were more offensive-minded than NJ.

and

2) Hossa's best years were in the higher scoring seasons immediately following the lockout.

You seem to be projecting Hossa's defensive-mindedness after he left Atlanta back over the course of his career.

It's laughable that you claim Hossa's playoffs in 2008 was as good as Elias' best. That was by far the most productive playoffs of Hossa's career, which makes it obvious to me the real reason he scored so much was Crosby. Elias led his team in scoring in the playoffs numerous times, including the 2000 and 2001 Cup runs.

And of course, you are once again ignoring the biggest part of Elias' case: The most important overall forward (by a fair margin) on the modern equivalent of a dynasty.

Quote:
As for Sittler, from my perspective it has nothing to do with him being a Maple Leaf. I don't think with a straight face anyone can say Elias was as revered during his time as Sittler was during his time.
Of course, the European player who played for a small/medium market team in NJ wasn't as "revered" as the guy who played for the Toronto Maple Leafs and Team Canada.

Quote:
Sittler peaked higher for sure
Care to back that up? In Sitter's best season, he finished 3rd to Lafleur and Trottier. In Elias' best season, he finished 3rd to Jagr and the best season of Sakic's career. In Sittler's 2nd best season, he was 8th. In Elias' 2nd best season, he was 6th (and 4th in goals). Sittler also had help from the likes of prime Borje Salming and Lanny MacDonald on his team. Elias had Rafalski, one year of prime Niedermayer, and... Petr Sykora/Scott Gomez?

Quote:
and Elias never sustained the level that Sittler had for at least half a dozen seasons.
Elias' career was more up and down (which had a lot to do with roster and coaching turnover in NJ... not surprisingly, when NJ brought in a super defensive-minded coach, Elias' numbers tended to go down... while still leading his team). Sittler tended to string his best seasons together. But overall, their best seasons line up very closely to each other.

Quote:
Give him the playoff edge over Sittler, but really, can anyone say Sittler didn't do his part?
Nobody can ever say Ovechkin didn't do his part in Washington, but that didn't stop you from giving Guy Lafleur a massive edge over him in the other thread. Oh, I forget, playoff heroics only matter if they player is long retired.

Quote:
I don't know how you would make a case to pick Elias over Sittler if you were picking a player to build your team around. That should really be a no-brainer for anyone on the HOH board. Adjusted points will always slant it in favour of Elias and I am sure you know this by now so take them for what they are worth.
So the stats don't come out the way you like so you just ignore them? It's been recently shown on this board (by CYM and others) that scorers in the 1970s had as easy a time accumulating points as scorers in the 1980s. Are we supposed to ignore that?

Quote:
But I will ask, as a Devils fan do you feel in the bottom of your heart that Elias belongs in the HHOF or do you WANT him in there? I want John Tonelli in there, but don't feel he deserves it.
I already said numerous times that based on the already existing standards in the Hall, where key contributors to multiple Cup winners are recognized, that if Elias is not recognized, he would a major snub.

The Devils from 1999-00 to 2002-03 went to 3 finals in 4 years, winning 2 Cups. Elias was their leading scorer in the regular season all 4 years and their leading scoring in the postseason 3 of the 4 years (all but the 2003 Cup). Find me a player, any player in history, with that level of contribution to a successful team who is NOT in the Hall. If Elias did what he did in the 1970s or did what he did for a Canadian or Original 6 Team, a lot of people would think he should be a lock.


Quote:
I too take Elias over Sykora, but my point was to show you that from a production standpoint they weren't very different.

Also let's look at another piece of the puzzle here. The all-star nods. We can agree that Elias played at a rather weak LW position at that time where it might have been easy to garner all-star nods and yet............

Elias: 1st (2001). That was his only all-star nod at a weak position. The next best was finishing 3rd in 2004 and 5th in 2000. That's a very poor record at the LW position. Clark Gillies has better finishes. Nothing about that screams HHOFer in my books.
In 2004, 2 of the top 4 NHL scorers were LWs, and they got the top 2 spots. Guess it wasn't a weak position that year. Only 1 center (Sakic) outscored Elias that season.

Quote:
As for your recent questions, Elias compares to some top forwards on Cup winners, but the only problem is that they aren't making the HHOF either. Damphousse in 1993. Actually pretty comparable to Elias, just as good really, and yet he's not going to the HHOF. Selanne in 2007? A given, no comparison to Elias. Carolina, Boston and L.A. are too young to know yet. Staal could have a better career. Hard to say on Boston and Richards, Carter or Kopitar could surpass him eventually. But HHOF for any of them? Just Selanne who has a career that is far different and was still elite in 2007. These comparisons don't help Elias at all.
Damphousse never finished top 10 in points (vs 3 times for Elias), reached the Cup finals once (vs 4 times for Elias), and spent half his career on a generally defensive minded team (vs his whole career for Elias). But other than those little things, I guess they are similar.

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Old
07-21-2012, 06:44 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You seem to be projecting Hossa's defensive-mindedness after he left Atlanta back over the course of his career.
Hossa was a quality two-way prior to coming to Atlanta. His father, assistant coach of the Slovak national team, taught him early that fancy moves and were nice, you don't win if you don't stop the other team, too. While here, he was far and away the best defensive player on the ice for the Thrashers. He quickly became Atlanta's best and most valuable player, largely because of his two-way game. Deceptively fast, he would routinely be the only back-checking Thrasher. Hossa didn't become good defensively simply by leaving Atlanta, he learned that at a young age and has been a solid two-way guy pretty much his whole career.

Here's a solid write-up on Hossa http://holikonhockey.com/bobby-blog/...-marian-hossa/
Highlight:
Quote:
His career started with the Ottawa Senators where he really mastered the defensive game under Jaques Martin. As good he is defensively, he has never really been considered for the Selke Trophy. He should be. He wasn’t probably because of Marian’s quiet, going about your business personality and lack of marketing by the teams who he has played for.

When Hossa was traded to Atlanta, right after I just signed, I started to really appreciate how good of a hockey player he really is. You always get to know players better when you get a chance to play with them. In the three years we were Thrashers together, he was our best and MVP.


Last edited by TasteofFlames: 07-21-2012 at 06:50 PM.
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07-21-2012, 06:53 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteofFlames View Post
Hossa was a quality two-way prior to coming to Atlanta. His father, assistant coach of the Slovak national team, taught him early that fancy moves and were nice, you don't win if you don't stop the other team, too. While here, he was far and away the best defensive player on the ice for the Thrashers. He quickly became Atlanta's best and most valuable player, largely because of his two-way game. Deceptively fast, he would routinely be the only back-checking Thrasher. Hossa didn't become good defensively simply by leaving Atlanta, he learned that at a young age and has been a solid two-way guy pretty much his whole career.

Here's a solid write-up on Hossa http://holikonhockey.com/bobby-blog/...-marian-hossa/
Highlight:
He had some real duds in his early playoffs though. He made up for that with some very good performances in international play and has been good in more recent playoffs. Hossa seemed like he was going to be a superstar, probably because he excelled on international ice.

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07-21-2012, 06:57 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteofFlames View Post
Hossa was a quality two-way prior to coming to Atlanta. His father, assistant coach of the Slovak national team, taught him early that fancy moves and were nice, you don't win if you don't stop the other team, too. While here, he was far and away the best defensive player on the ice for the Thrashers. He quickly became Atlanta's best and most valuable player, largely because of his two-way game. Deceptively fast, he would routinely be the only back-checking Thrasher. Hossa didn't become good defensively simply by leaving Atlanta, he learned that at a young age and has been a solid two-way guy pretty much his whole career.

Here's a solid write-up on Hossa http://holikonhockey.com/bobby-blog/...-marian-hossa/
Highlight:
And Elias was not a quality two-way player at the time?

I know Hossa was always a good two-way player, but I don't think he was better defensively than Elias until Detroit and maybe not until Chicago.

And good two-way players still have an easier time putting up numbers in offensive systems, just look at how Elias' numbers dropped when NJ brought in more defensive coaches, or how Hossa's numbers dropped when he went to Detroit.

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07-21-2012, 07:09 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'll ignore Alfredsson for now because I agree that he is and will remain ahead of Elias in terms of the regular season, and it seems that you only care about the playoffs when it applies to long retired players (see your comments in the Lafleur vs Malkin/Ovechkin thread).

And of course, you are once again ignoring the biggest part of Elias' case: The most important overall forward (by a fair margin) on the modern equivalent of a dynasty.

Of course, the European player who played for a small/medium market team in NJ wasn't as "revered" as the guy who played for the Toronto Maple Leafs and Team Canada.

Nobody can ever say Ovechkin didn't do his part in Washington, but that didn't stop you from giving Guy Lafleur a massive edge over him in the other thread. Oh, I forget, playoff heroics only matter if they player is long retired.

So the stats don't come out the way you like so you just ignore them? It's been recently shown on this board (by CYM and others) that scorers in the 1970s had as easy a time accumulating points as scorers in the 1980s. Are we supposed to ignore that?

I already said numerous times that based on the already existing standards in the Hall, where key contributors to multiple Cup winners are recognized, that if Elias is not recognized, he would a major snub.

The Devils from 1999-00 to 2002-03 went to 3 finals in 4 years, winning 2 Cups. Elias was their leading scorer in the regular season all 4 years and their leading scoring in the postseason 3 of the 4 years (all but the 2003 Cup). Find me a player, any player in history, with that level of contribution to a successful team who is NOT in the Hall. If Elias did what he did in the 1970s or did what he did for a Canadian or Original 6 Team, a lot of people would think he should be a lock.
I agree with you. I have this genuine feeling that if Elias played in the O6, those who didn't agree with him as a HOFer would be lectured as to how Elias was a very good two-way player, who was the best forward and an integral piece for one of the strongest teams of his era. That seems to get lost in an era without the same type of "dynasties."

I understand what Big Phil is saying, that Elias doesn't scream "HOF" at you upon first glance. However, he was the key forward on New Jersey and when he was missing from the Czechs' or Devils' lineup, his absence was noticed.

Sure, the Devils didn't have any megastar forwards, but he was usually their best forward and they were quite successful. The Sens has Alfredsson, Yashin and Hossa... and they didn't get it done. They had Alfredsson, Spezza and Heatley and almost got it done... once, but didn't. Ottawa was a regular season powerhouse many years, but not in the post-season. Hossa found success in the playoffs, but he wasn't the key forward even then, and jumped around from contender to contender until he had his Cup.

My instinct says Alfredsson will get in, in large part for his long-time captaincy of the Sens. If that happens, and especially given the more recent standards of the HOF, Elias not getting in would indeed seem a real snub.


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 07-21-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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Old
07-21-2012, 07:46 PM
  #63
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O6 Player

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I agree with you. I have this genuine feeling that if Elias played in the O6, those who didn't agree with him as a HOFer would be lectured as to how Elias was a very good two-way player, who was the best forward and an integral piece for one of the strongest teams of his era. That seems to get lost in an era without the same type of "dynasties."

I understand what Big Phil is saying, that Elias doesn't scream "HOF" at you upon first glance. However, he was the key forward on New Jersey and when he was missing from the Czechs' or Devils' lineup, his absence was noticed.

Sure, the Devils didn't have any megastar forwards, but he was usually their best forward and they were quite successful. The Sens has Alfredsson, Yashin and Hossa... and they didn't get it done. They had Alfredsson, Spezza and Heatley and almost got it done... once, but didn't. Ottawa was a regular season powerhouse many years, but not in the post-season. Hossa found success in the playoffs, but he wasn't the key forward even then, and jumped around from contender to contender until he had his Cup.

My instinct says Alfredsson will get in, in large part for his long-time captaincy of the Sens. If that happens, and especially given the more recent standards of the HOF, Elias not getting in would indeed seem a real snub.
Elias and Alfredsson fit the mold of an O6 player. Pre Orr Johnny Bucyk, better balance between offense and defense than Andy Bathgate.

Both are future HHOFers.

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07-21-2012, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Elias and Alfredsson fit the mold of an O6 player. Pre Orr Johnny Bucyk, better balance between offense and defense than Andy Bathgate.

Both are future HHOFers.
Nice to see someone who watched Original 6 hockey say so.

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07-22-2012, 12:26 AM
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I'll ignore Alfredsson for now because I agree that he is and will remain ahead of Elias in terms of the regular season, and it seems that you only care about the playoffs when it applies to long retired players (see your comments in the Lafleur vs Malkin/Ovechkin thread).
Well, that's another thread and the question is structured a lot differently forcing you to see just how they would help your team win. Not hard to understand why I would prefer the duo with Guy Lafleur. I looked at the poll the other day, it was pretty even. So the opinion is shared. Alfredsson just has too much in the regular season for Elias to compete with.

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As for Hossa, I couldn't disagree more than he's ahead of Elias. Their regular season offensive totals are very similar: 904 points in 978 games for Hossa, 894 in 1042 games for Elias. Slight advantage to Hossa on the surface until you realize that

1) Hossa spent a large portion of his career playing for the run and gun Thrashers. Even the Senators were more offensive-minded than NJ.

and

2) Hossa's best years were in the higher scoring seasons immediately following the lockout.

You seem to be projecting Hossa's defensive-mindedness after he left Atlanta back over the course of his career.

It's laughable that you claim Hossa's playoffs in 2008 was as good as Elias' best. That was by far the most productive playoffs of Hossa's career, which makes it obvious to me the real reason he scored so much was Crosby. Elias led his team in scoring in the playoffs numerous times, including the 2000 and 2001 Cup runs.
Actually Hossa has gotten Selke votes throughout his whole career. Even on Ottawa. No doubt he had a defensive prescence. I also don't know what you mean by "run and gun Thrashers." They were an awful team, but Hossa only spent 2 and a half years there. I don't think it boosted his offensive totals playing in that cancerous environment. As for Ottawa? I supposed they were a little more offensive, but by how much?

1998-'04 goals for:
Ottawa - 1525
New Jersey - 1428

We're talking about on average 16 goals a season more for Ottawa in the time Hossa was there compared to New Jersey. That isn't much at all. The Devils always had a well balanced attack despite being strong defensively.

And what is wrong with Hossa in the 2008 playoffs? I'll give you that Crosby outplayed him but Hossa was the second most important cog in that run, including Malkin. He scored some huge goals. You don't get 26 playoff points by being Rob Brown-esque. Watching those games you could see full well his contribution. I think right now Hossa is at least on Elias' level and I doubt there is much Elias will do whatever time he has left. Hossa is young enough to still have a couple more great seasons.

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And of course, you are once again ignoring the biggest part of Elias' case: The most important overall forward (by a fair margin) on the modern equivalent of a dynasty.
This is where I am afraid Elias is the exception to the rule. The Devils weren't technically a dynasty but were a very revered team for a while. They fall into the era of the Red Wings, Avs and Stars. When you look at the best forward on those teams you have Yzerman, Fedorov, Sakic, Forsberg and Modano. Then there is a clear drop to Elias. Put him in that 6-pack and he's out of place for sure. The Devils weren't a team known for their star forwards. To this day there hasn't been a Devils forward to crack 100 points. There were more important parts to the Devils teams. As a Leaf fan who watched them lose to the Devils twice I can certainly say their defensive prowess was my number #1 concern. Their "A" line concerned me, but it wasn't like Elias was miles ahead of Sykora at that time either.


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Of course, the European player who played for a small/medium market team in NJ wasn't as "revered" as the guy who played for the Toronto Maple Leafs and Team Canada.
Strange analogy.....................since you brought it up, yes Sittler did perform rather well on Team Canada in 1976. He scored the biggest goal of the tournament and was on the tournament all-star team. Is it okay if I reward him with that? Or not?


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Care to back that up? In Sitter's best season, he finished 3rd to Lafleur and Trottier. In Elias' best season, he finished 3rd to Jagr and the best season of Sakic's career. In Sittler's 2nd best season, he was 8th. In Elias' 2nd best season, he was 6th (and 4th in goals). Sittler also had help from the likes of prime Borje Salming and Lanny MacDonald on his team. Elias had Rafalski, one year of prime Niedermayer, and... Petr Sykora/Scott Gomez?
Hmmm. Well:
Hart voting:
Sittler - 3, 8, 9, 9, 10
Elias - 6, 17

There is little doubt that Sittler stood out amongst his peers in comparison to Elias. Sittler was a legitimate star for a while, peaking pretty high too. Also in a tougher center position he fared higher at his own position than Elias did at his LW position. The all-star nods back this up too.


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Nobody can ever say Ovechkin didn't do his part in Washington, but that didn't stop you from giving Guy Lafleur a massive edge over him in the other thread. Oh, I forget, playoff heroics only matter if they player is long retired.
To be fair, Sittler doesn't come close to Lafleur either in the postseason.

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So the stats don't come out the way you like so you just ignore them? It's been recently shown on this board (by CYM and others) that scorers in the 1970s had as easy a time accumulating points as scorers in the 1980s. Are we supposed to ignore that?
No you aren't. But every player from Sittler's time also had the luxury of shooting on those same teams. It isn't as if Sittler couldn't and didn't keep up with the elite players of his time because he did.

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The Devils from 1999-00 to 2002-03 went to 3 finals in 4 years, winning 2 Cups. Elias was their leading scorer in the regular season all 4 years and their leading scoring in the postseason 3 of the 4 years (all but the 2003 Cup). Find me a player, any player in history, with that level of contribution to a successful team who is NOT in the Hall. If Elias did what he did in the 1970s or did what he did for a Canadian or Original 6 Team, a lot of people would think he should be a lock.
Off the top of my head there isn't really. Rick MacLeish led the Flyers in playoff points both years they won. Then he was injured in 1976 and they lost. He isn't in the HHOF. I do know what you mean, but the Devils were not a team built around their offense. There are lots of teams the Devils beat along the way who had forwards that were superior to Elias. Bure, Lindros, Sundin, Modano, Jagr, Lemieux, Thornton and even Alfredsson and Hossa were probably still considered better. The Devils winning had more to do with their system, their coaching, their defense and their goaltending than it did their offense. Plus it was a more balanced attack.

Elias will probably be the exception. I mean, in 2003 he had 57 points and he led the team. That really should tell you something there. He had 13 playoff points, good for just 5th. Did anyone really think Elias was a star at this time? No. He would just look out of place in the HHOF






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Damphousse never finished top 10 in points (vs 3 times for Elias), reached the Cup finals once (vs 4 times for Elias), and spent half his career on a generally defensive minded team (vs his whole career for Elias). But other than those little things, I guess they are similar
No, but he was the leading scorer for a Cup winner in the postseason. He also accumulated some numbers that a least give you a little bit of pause for the HHOF. Damphousse is similar to Elias where he is in that "oh yeah.........them" category where you never thought of them as a star but they were always a pretty good player who eventually got good numbers.

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07-22-2012, 12:37 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
My instinct says Alfredsson will get in, in large part for his long-time captaincy of the Sens. If that happens, and especially given the more recent standards of the HOF, Elias not getting in would indeed seem a real snub.
See and that's the issue there. We all know the HHOF has dropped the ball with questionable picks in the last decade. Elias cannot have his name be brought up without resorting to the poor standards the HHOF has already set in place. It's almost an admission by you that Elias isn't "really" a HHOFer in the purest sense but if you stack him up against Gillies, Federko, Neely, Duff and Nieuwendyk he doesn't look so bad. That just doesn't scream HHOF at all. Sorry, I'm afraid he's going to have to buy a ticket like us laymens

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07-22-2012, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
See and that's the issue there. We all know the HHOF has dropped the ball with questionable picks in the last decade. Elias cannot have his name be brought up without resorting to the poor standards the HHOF has already set in place. It's almost an admission by you that Elias isn't "really" a HHOFer in the purest sense but if you stack him up against Gillies, Federko, Neely, Duff and Nieuwendyk he doesn't look so bad. That just doesn't scream HHOF at all. Sorry, I'm afraid he's going to have to buy a ticket like us laymens
I'll help you out, Phil:

George Armstrong, Jacques Lemaire, Bert Olmstead, Herbie Lewis, Bill Barber, Joe Mullen, Glenn Anderson

That's without even getting into the weaker inductees like Jack Darraugh, Harry Watson, or the guys you listed

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07-22-2012, 01:16 AM
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I'll help you out, Phil:

George Armstrong, Jacques Lemaire, Bert Olmstead, Herbie Lewis, Bill Barber, Joe Mullen, Glenn Anderson

That's without even getting into the weaker inductees like Jack Darraugh, Harry Watson, or the guys you listed
Thanks for the "help" but how does that help Elias at all? Just more controversial choices some players who I am sure you know some are strongly against being in there.

A couple of those names don't belong though. Lemaire and Anderson have far too good of contributions to actual real dynasties to overlook. Who here passes up Lemaire on their team in favour of Elias? Anderson 4th all-time in playoff points is just impossible to overlook. A money player wherever he went, 6 Cups, never a passenger on those teams. Lemaire was very, very important in 8 Cup wins for Montreal not to mention doing at least as much as Elias has done in the regular season in just 12 seasons. No one argues Lemaire. Many would argue Elias.

Okay, I have to ask. If Elias is a New York Ranger would you back his induction? Honest question, honest answer.

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07-22-2012, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Okay, I have to ask. If Elias is a New York Ranger would you back his induction? Honest question, honest answer.
Do the Rangers go to 3 finals in 4 years, winning 2 Cups during that time, with Elias as easily their best forward, in this thought experiment?

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07-22-2012, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And Elias was not a quality two-way player at the time?

I know Hossa was always a good two-way player, but I don't think he was better defensively than Elias until Detroit and maybe not until Chicago.

And good two-way players still have an easier time putting up numbers in offensive systems, just look at how Elias' numbers dropped when NJ brought in more defensive coaches, or how Hossa's numbers dropped when he went to Detroit.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I'm not arguing Hossa>Elias (I actually think they are fairly similar players), or that Elias was bad defensively, or anything along those lines, nor did I even mention offense. Just making sure Hossa doesn't get short-changed when it comes to defense. The guy was damn good in Atlanta, and consistent as they come on the back-check. Heck, he managed a +21 over the better part of 3 seasons with Atlanta, while averaging ~14 ES mins a game (about a minute shy of Kovalchuk, ToI leader for forwards those seasons). His closest teammate (and linemate) was only +13 over that time.

Part of why some might think Hossa was a lesser defensive player in ATL could simply be a function of exposure. Atlanta didn't exactly get many nationally televised games, and, quite frankly, I wouldn't force inmates to watch a Thrashers game, that team was ****ing miserable, so I doubt many people were watching those days.
On the other hand, my respect for Hossa's defense could be a function of him being the only Thrasher of note when it came to defense (well, him and Holik), and contrasting that to the black-hole of back-check that was Ilya Kovalchuk (in his ATL days, of course).

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07-22-2012, 04:51 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Hart winners often get in the HHOF.

A Hart winner that will not get in was born in that timespan.
The voters who awarded Theodore the Hart and Veizna trophy should be ashamed of themselves.

Jose Theodore: 4th in GAA, 14th in Wins, 1st in save%, 4th in SO...1st in hype.

Patrick Roy: 1st GAA, 8th in Wins, 2nd save%, 1st in SO.

In a year where Brodeur and Hasek were 1 and 2 in wins and Roy was just overall better, how does Theodore win the Veizna none the less the Hart?

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07-22-2012, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
See and that's the issue there. We all know the HHOF has dropped the ball with questionable picks in the last decade. Elias cannot have his name be brought up without resorting to the poor standards the HHOF has already set in place. It's almost an admission by you that Elias isn't "really" a HHOFer in the purest sense but if you stack him up against Gillies, Federko, Neely, Duff and Nieuwendyk he doesn't look so bad. That just doesn't scream HHOF at all. Sorry, I'm afraid he's going to have to buy a ticket like us laymens
You have to recognize that Elias' era is hit by the triple whammy for forwards:

- no longer any "real" dynasties as in previous eras, due to a larger league and much greater parity

- much more competition, due to European/Russian/US players, especially at forward

- very low-scoring era makes totals look worse, and so does the missing lockout season

Here's an average of Ratelle, Gilbert, Sittler, Perreault, Shutt, Barber, McDonald, Gillies, Federko, Mullen, Gartner, Anderson, Ciccarelli and Nieuwendyk:

Cups- 1.7
1st AS- 0.4
1st/2nd AS- 1.2
Adj. Goals- 423
Adj. Points- 943
Adj. PPG- 0.84
Playoffs- 49 G, 105 Pts (0.86 PPG)
Best 3 Adj. Point Seasons- Avg. 83
Best 5 Adj. Point seasons- Avg. 79

Elias
Cups-2
1st AS- 1
1st/2nd AS- 1
Adj. Goals- 400
Adj. Points- 971
Adj. PPG- 0.93
Playoffs- 45 G, 125 Pts (0.77 PPG)
Best 3 Adj. Point Seasons- Avg. 95
Best 5 Adj. Point Seasons- Avg. 89

So I guess Elias should just fall through the cracks? If he has any weakness, it's his lack of All-Star selections and a lower playoff PPG. If he doesn't finish behind Naslund and Kovalchuk (Euro/Russian) in 2004, does two 1st Team AS selections suddenly make him a HOFer? His playoff PPG is ~10% lower than the average of those 14 other forwards, but he also played in a much lower scoring era (much more than 10% lower). I just think he's a bit too easily dismissed as not HOF material.


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 07-22-2012 at 11:42 AM.
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07-22-2012, 12:15 PM
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The voters who awarded Theodore the Hart and Veizna trophy should be ashamed of themselves.

Jose Theodore: 4th in GAA, 14th in Wins, 1st in save%, 4th in SO...1st in hype.

Patrick Roy: 1st GAA, 8th in Wins, 2nd save%, 1st in SO.

In a year where Brodeur and Hasek were 1 and 2 in wins and Roy was just overall better, how does Theodore win the Veizna none the less the Hart?
It had a lot to do with the fact that Theodore carried that Habs team to the playoffs when no one in their right mind figured they'd get there with Koivu out and the fact that they'd missed the postseason for three straight seasons. That team was close to a lottery team without Theodore's heroics. Iginla started the season out with a bang and wilted as the season went on, as did the Flames who were nowhere near a playoff berth. I know who I consider the MVP.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Do the Rangers go to 3 finals in 4 years, winning 2 Cups during that time, with Elias as easily their best forward, in this thought experiment?
I think you know the reasoning behind the question. You are a die hard Devils fan. Elias does not get a lot of support for the HHOF around here. It is a fair question to ask that if Elias was not a Devil would you push this hard for him?

Conversely, I am a Leaf fan. I wouldn't induct Curtis Joseph to my HHOF.

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07-22-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
You have to recognize that Elias' era is hit by the triple whammy for forwards:

- no longer any "real" dynasties as in previous eras, due to a larger league and much greater parity

- much more competition, due to European/Russian/US players, especially at forward

- very low-scoring era makes totals look worse, and so does the missing lockout season

Here's an average of Ratelle, Gilbert, Sittler, Perreault, Shutt, Barber, McDonald, Gillies, Federko, Mullen, Gartner, Anderson, Ciccarelli and Nieuwendyk:

Cups- 1.7
1st AS- 0.4
1st/2nd AS- 1.2
Adj. Goals- 423
Adj. Points- 943
Adj. PPG- 0.84
Playoffs- 49 G, 105 Pts (0.86 PPG)
Best 3 Adj. Point Seasons- Avg. 83
Best 5 Adj. Point seasons- Avg. 79

Elias
Cups-2
1st AS- 1
1st/2nd AS- 1
Adj. Goals- 400
Adj. Points- 971
Adj. PPG- 0.93
Playoffs- 45 G, 125 Pts (0.77 PPG)
Best 3 Adj. Point Seasons- Avg. 95
Best 5 Adj. Point Seasons- Avg. 89

So I guess Elias should just fall through the cracks? If he has any weakness, it's his lack of All-Star selections and a lower playoff PPG. If he doesn't finish behind Naslund and Kovalchuk (Euro/Russian) in 2004, does two 1st Team AS selections suddenly make him a HOFer? His playoff PPG is ~10% lower than the average of those 14 other forwards, but he also played in a much lower scoring era (much more than 10% lower). I just think he's a bit too easily dismissed as not HOF material.
Okay, fair enough.

Those names are picked for a reason though no? I think you're getting into trouble when you use Gillies as one of the comparables. You have been here long enough to know that after the first 4 names there, each of those players have been question for the HHOF. Some I wouldn't have put in the first place at all. And I am sure you agree. Nieuwendyk is probably the best comparable for Elias and to be honest, that isn't a compliment either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I personally don't look at Elias' numbers just at a raw value, but rather in comparison to his contemporaries. He didn't finish very high in the scoring race:

Elias: 3, 6, 10.......then his next best was 20th.

Coupled that with very poor Hart trophy voting and you'd better have more than just a couple very good runs in the postseason. But he doesn't.

A borderline HHOFer like Alfredsson is someone who I have my reservations with and yet he still beats Elias overall without even needing to think hard. Not that Alfredsson is a playoff god but:

Alfredsson playoff PPG - 0.81
Elias playoff PPG - 0.77

Yes, overall Elias is the better playoff performer because he's been there for longer periods of time and has more than one very good run. But is the differece night and day? When Stevens and Niedermayer left town and the onus was more on Elias than ever before what happened? They never came close to a nice run. Not until 2012 which we can thank Brodeur, Parise and Kovalchuk for. You see, Alfredsson has been "the guy" on his team for a long, long time. I don't think Elias ever was.

So instead of looking just as his point totals I take it in the context of the era. A lockout happened. So? Sundin, Hossa, Alfredsson, etc. all had that year off too. So did Brad Richards now that we mention it. So did Joe Thornton. Not all of those names are making the HHOF. But they do have one thing in common with Elias, they all played with the same hand they were dealt in the NHL. They all played in a lower scoring era at the same time. Some are clearly better than Elias and yet not all of them are going to the HHOF if there is any justice.

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07-22-2012, 11:35 PM
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You're right, Phil. After Stevens and Niedermayer left NJ, Elias accomplished about as much in the playoffs as Sittler did when he did have Borje Salming playing with him.

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I think you know the reasoning behind the question. You are a die hard Devils fan. Elias does not get a lot of support for the HHOF around here. It is a fair question to ask that if Elias was not a Devil would you push this hard for him?

Conversely, I am a Leaf fan. I wouldn't induct Curtis Joseph to my HHOF.
What is "around here?" Your insular group of fans of the Leafs and Canadian Hockey? Because on the HOH board, it sure looks like opinion is quite mixed.

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